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RE: Breath play - 12/29/2004 6:20:09 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
There is no perfectly safe way to do breath play.


Sureeeeeeeeeee there is.

It's called:

DON'T BREATHE.

Basically you just tell them they are not allowed to breathe unless you tell them to.

Okay well nothing is ever *perfectly* safe, you could stab yourself with your letter opener and bleed to death but if you didn't opne the letters you'd never see what was written and that's no fun.

Well unless it's bills. Then I could see the logic. LOL.

But seriously that is one of the safest ways to do it.

Or tape the nose and mouth closed leaving a straw for air, and place your finger over the straws opening.

The same principle applies to breath play as does with any other play - you aren't *required* to do the most extreme forms of it and if you know your partner well enough the mindfuck is usually fun.

You don't *have* to create pressure around the neck or withhold air until they lose consciousness. For most folks, it's enough to add in the threat or suggestion unless their trigger is pressure on the throat or the pretty colors. lol

One doesn't always *have* to play on the extreme ends of the spectrum after all.

That's like when folks talk to a couple that has been playig together 40+ years and then getting outraged when those folks say they don't believe in safewords or have no limits and having the outraged people throw out ridiculous scenerios or proclamations to bolster their point:

What???? NO SAFEWORDS? ARE you INSANE? You HAVE to use safewords FOREVER or you will die.

What? NO limits? Are you insane? Oh I suppose then you'd have no problem if your dominant cut off your arm since you have no limits. Or if your dominant told you to kill yourself you;d do it.

They interpret the *no limits/safewords* to be someone they would casually do across the board. They aren't comprehending or factoring in the unspoken context that such people often feel is a given, they have no limits with THAT person - because they KNOW that person and they TRUST that perosn and they have done their homework and satisfied themselves that they are compatible and that their dominant isn't an idiot that would seek to place them in such a position or abuse that trust so that they can indeed say I have NO LIMITS with that particular person.

It *is* possible, it's just in the context. Sure you could argue semantics all day and argue the extreme stance of the minute probablity that their dominant would ask them to do such a silly thing like cut off their arm.

The same applies to breath play. Not everyone does breath play via the same routes or to the "inth" degree.

One thing I've noticed over the years with edgy fetishes/kinks when folks discuss them is that they tend to focus on only the action itself, or the ends of the spectrum.

Something to remember here, one doesn't *have* to actually ever interfere with someone's breathing to qualify calling it breath play and still be 100% accurate/correct/valid in terming/labeling/calling it breath play.

The reality is here, that breath play is about controling someone's ability to intake air at the core of that kink/fetish/play.

And just like every other aspect of controling something, one doesn't have to exercise it and act on it to be in control of it, and for both partners to KNOW that the control lies in the hands of the one calling the shots during the scene.

If I place someone in a situation ... like say my above example ... and I channel their ability to intake air through something of my devising, be it a straw, a gas mask, a tube, whatever, I don't ever have to actually in any way interfere with their ability to take in air to be in control of it.

The mere fact that I *could* decide to choose to take away their ability to breathe ... or *not* ... and have set up a situation by which that choice is an incredibly easy thing for me to do and they have *no* way with which to stop me or regain control of their ability to breath if I choose to withold their air ... is, by definition, controling their ability to breathe and thus would indeed qualify to be labeled or termed breath play - whether or not I choose to actually act on that.

There are *always* shades of gray, and nuances in between the two extremes, and they are JUST as valid to boot.

Just my two cents.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

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My projects of love:
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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Breath play - 12/29/2004 6:35:28 PM   
insexcyd


Posts: 1
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: New York City
Status: offline 		At work, we have done breath play day in and day out on dozens if not hundreds of women over the years. Plastic bags, nooses, neck suspensions, gas masks, saran wrap, suffocation hoods, forced water submersion, forced smoke inhalation, etc etc etc. No one ever dies. No one ever even comes close to dying. The bottom line is, if you are not an idiot, and do a simple half an hours worth of research and take things slowly to start, everything will go fine.

(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Breath play - 12/29/2004 6:57:18 PM   
djargus


Posts: 8
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Neptune, NJ
Status: offline 		I highly doubt that about 30 minutes of research and "going slowly" will help. It takes days to find the proper references since it isn't exactly common for people to say "Well I have don't breath control before, here's a book on how to suspend your partner safely with a noose". I would rather know if I am doing breathplay with a Dominant that she is trained in CPR and has done this before with other subs and give references. I don't want to trust anyone in BDSM unless they know what they are doing.

(in reply to insexcyd)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Breath play - 12/29/2004 7:21:29 PM   
MistressDyna


Posts: 7
Joined: 9/17/2004
Status: offline 		I have experimented with it, successfully I might add, (still kicking ;) and practiced it. It is for me a hot, adrenaline pumping, sexy, bonding, experience. However, it's not something I would do all the time. That would ruin it's magic. And molten magic it can be, between two who are in tune and care deeply about each other.

Divers and snorkelers do it all the time, although they may not be sexually stimulated by it. (On second thought, I've seen some nice hardons on divers.) hmm

I've also had nutritional testing that indicates by how long one can hold their breath. And it's good to get better at it.

And as we all know, the goal is to stimulate the 'do ee' and the 'do er' without harm to either.

Mistress Dyna
(with long slender fingers that can nicely encircle a neck) ;)


(in reply to Icanbnice)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Breath play - 12/29/2004 7:50:06 PM   
djargus


Posts: 8
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Neptune, NJ
Status: offline 		MistressDyna, would you push a sub into breath control play because you enjoy it? Or if you were that eager, how would you be able to convince a sub that it's safe?

(in reply to MistressDyna)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 2:18:30 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Ummmm...that's not safe. People can hold their breath until they faint if they put their minds to it. And that can be dangerous.

Otherwise I agree with you. I never said not to do something just because it isn't safe.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
There is no perfectly safe way to do breath play.


Sureeeeeeeeeee there is.

It's called:

DON'T BREATHE.

Basically you just tell them they are not allowed to breathe unless you tell them to.


(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 7:48:30 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		*smile*

And yet the very next sentence underneath that which you quoted states that nothing is *ever* "perfectly" safe.

I *did* clarify that statement, hehe!

~ShadeDiva



_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
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HumanFauna
Kinked
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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 8:23:32 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Well just as a side ntoe to holdign your breath ti l you faitn and how DANGEROUS everyone seems to think it is in this thread....Our daughter does it all the time. Our pediatrician, actually three of them..since we go to a military training hospital and see a team and i have asked three seperate doctors..say its perfectly harmless.

see Our little Diva takes after Daddy and is quite the Dominant personality and if she doesn't get here way she throws a holy shit fit and will hold her breath until she literally passes out...the first time she did it i liked to have a heart attack.

In fact, quite harmless.

She is four now, and started doing this at about two...and it is less frequent now but there for awhile when she knew it really freaked me out she would do it daily....no brain damge...no nothing. Just a frustrated little girl...who didn't get her way. i have a nephew who just started it and am told it is very common in strong willed children so i highly doubt actively making one's self faint from holding one's breath is dangerous if toddlers can do it repeatedly.

sabrina King

< Message edited by bottominwa -- 12/30/2004 8:27:59 PM >

(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 9:24:38 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Well - to be accurate - and granted this *is* quibbling over semantics, lol - it isn't 100% harmless.

Usually, the majority of the time, yes, it is harmless.

But there is a very few instances and probabilities that could arise from the lack of air that could - in theory - happen to cause damage or death.

Like, they faint and crack their head open. Not so harmless.

Or the lack of air causes another chain reaction, that results in damage or death, like possibly triggering a heart attack, or stroke or something unexpected. Again, not so harmless.

But then, *nothing* on this planet or in this dimension is *ever* 100% perfectly safe.

As far as breath play goes - holding ones own breath is hands down the *most* safest way to practice it. Doesn't mean something *can't* go wrong, just out of all the other methods, it is the one that is the least likely to cause any actual harm if one uses their brain, like, not having them do it where they can fall and hurt themselves of they lose consciousness, or choke on their tongue, etc.

Doesn't mean it's always safe, just means it usually is. Just like that evil letter-opener. lol

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to bottominwa)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 10:08:37 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Like, they faint and crack their head open. Not so harmless


LMAO

Very true...but she could trip on a loose wood pellet and fall and snap her neck to, so should she just not walk around the house, or should she seek alternative heating options? LMAO.

Tomorrow she plans on walking around in heels...LIVING DANGEROUSLY! lmao.

Yes, nothing is ever safe is the most accurate point, but some people also get melodramatic on here in their attempts at being over safe....its like the chicken little brigade of collarme.


Oh and is said "quite" harmless not 100%! So You can kiss my semantics lol.....
sabrina King

House of King

< Message edited by bottominwa -- 12/30/2004 10:11:40 PM >

(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 10:22:46 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bottominwa
Very true...but she could trip on a loose wood pellet and fall and snap her neck to, so should she just not walk around the house, or should she seek alternative heating options? LMAO.

Tomorrow she plans on walking around in heels...LIVING DANGEROUSLY! lmao.


Thus the point of my sarcastic remark/example about the letter opener in my first post. lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: bottominwa
Oh and is said "quite" harmless not 100%! So You can kiss my semantics lol.....


*smile*

Touché. Point conceded.

*chortle*

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to bottominwa)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Breath play - 12/30/2004 10:33:27 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

POINT conceded.


Doin the Snoopy dance..."i win, i win"
neener neener neener

lmao

Night!

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Breath play - 12/31/2004 1:33:30 AM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		lol

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to bottominwa)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Breath play - 12/31/2004 6:51:37 AM   
Av8r


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/25/2004
Status: offline 		Very interesting topic. As a dominant, I have frequently engaged in SOME forms of breath play over the years and if done properly it can be a very exciting and rewarding experience for all involved.

Cyd posted a very valid point, Insex has been at the forefront of breath play in the public realm for years, and love him or hate him, PD is absolutely one of the leading practioners of S&M anywhere today.

However Gord, who even PD quotes as an influence, tends to have a completely opposite view on the subject. So for sure it's controversial.

In over a decade, I have never known of, or even heard of, any adverse effects from breathplay, so long as it is conducted in a SSC environment by people who know what they are doing and follow basic safety rules.

There is always some risk involved with any activity that puts stress on the vital systems of the body. People DO die while practicing BDSM. But no more than people die while having vanilla sex, or working out, jogging, etc.

Breathplay puts stress on the body for sure, as does many other kinds of BDSM activity. Electro, forced excercise, confined positions, breathplay, hell, even multiple orgasms, all of these can cause stress on the heart, circulatory and respiritory systems.

The key is to ensure that you take reasonable precautions not to overstress your subs system, and play to a level that is appropriate for the individual subs fitness level and medical conditions..

Also, when playing in this manner you must consider the health of the dominant too.

The default position for ANY form of breathplay MUST be one that allows normal breathing. In other words, stopping or restriction of breathing should always take positive input from the dom, (like holding the end of a tube closed, covering mouth with hand, etc) this way if the dom passes out or has a heart attack, the input stops and the sub can breathe again.

The real risk in breathplay in my opinion however, is not the medical risks. The medical risks can be managed and if managed properly are no more dangerous than some other forms of BDSM.

No, the real risk is the legal risk.

Explaining to an ambulance/police officer/coronor that your leather and chains clad sub had a heart attack/stroke whilst being encouraged to perform on that dildocycle is bad enough.

But explaining that it happened while they had a plastic bag over their heads, or your hands around their neck, is a guaranteed way to get charged with a felony.

Proper documentation of mutual consent will likely stop it from being a murder charge, but felony endangerment or negligent manslaughter would be real possibilities.

So be careful, and be cautious, and whatever you do, cover both your medical and legal bases.




(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Breath play - 12/31/2004 6:59:26 AM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissFem
Have you ever done it?....what was it like and how much did you know before doing it?

I have read a lot about it...but still kinda leary of it...

This looks so erotic, particularly face sitting. But you keep reading regularly about people who accidently take this too far, so it's a hard limit for me.
Darn!

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Breath play - 12/31/2004 10:57:30 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		OK, pet peeve time. One thing I really dislike about our so-called community is the use of quasi-mysterious nicknames like "PD" and "Gord." That's sort of half cyber, half Lord-of-the-Rings. Really, what does it mean for someone to be a "leading practitioner" of S&M? Whether breath-play is safe or unsafe does not depend on the opinions of luminaries such as PD or Gord.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Av8r

Cyd posted a very valid point, Insex has been at the forefront of breath play in the public realm for years, and love him or hate him, PD is absolutely one of the leading practioners of S&M anywhere today.

However Gord, who even PD quotes as an influence, tends to have a completely opposite view on the subject. So for sure it's controversial.


(in reply to Av8r)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Breath play - 1/1/2005 5:00:58 AM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		yes I have done and still enjoy doing breath play. So far all my breath play sessions have went well. No one has never turned blue in the face nor have there eye balls pop out. No asthma attacks, pulmonary arrest, respitory failure, and such.

My secret, well I'll have the sub hold there breath and count the time it takes before they have to take another breath. I have them repeat it till I see a pattern of when they need to start taking more breaths in less time to the original holding of there breath.
It gives me a good idea of what to work with. I also procede extra caution than normal. Sure most of us try to push others just a little further when it comes to pain and tolerance but when it comes to breathing I proceed with even more caution.

Other safty concerns involves having a quick way to relase my play mate so that taking a full breath is possible incase of fainting and such. I also make sure I know there medical history and have a phone near by for that 911 call. If they panic and start hyperventalating I have a bag for them to breath into so that there CO2 can readjust in the body.

Other than that you may want to log onto a respitory medical supply site and buy what is called a pulse oximitor. It tells you the oxygen level and the pulse. they are small and cheap. It's always good to make sure your subs Oxygen Saturation percentage stays above 90%. If you drop below that you need to back off a little. However also pay attention to there body language. It's common sense.

Hope I've been useful and as to your signiture, I won't turn down your offer but I'll need a raincheck on it for now.


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Breath play - 1/2/2005 1:18:28 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		Safety is relative as has been pointed out with some well thought-out examples. Bruising, for example, can lead to blood clots than could cause a stroke. Pressure on the jugular, one means of performing breath play, can loosen arterial plague that can cause a stroke, or so a medical doctor has assured me. Is it likely? No way of knowing with a certainty. Pressure on the trachea can cause it to collapse. How much pressure? again, no way to safely determine that in advance and how many of us are prepared to perform an emergency tracheotomy?
By comparison, the danger factor in covering the mouth and pinching the nose closed is less of an unknown. Telling a submissive to hold her breath is much safer still, in comparison. Understanding what level of danger you and your dominant are comfortable with is the key factor.
I've done all of the above and thus far there have been no ill effects. I'm always cognizant, however, that it only takes one misstep to end a life and that there are variables over which I have no power. In general, I choose to put my palm on the trachea and allow my girl to press up against it as hard as she wishes to, allowing her to dictate the level of pressure and ensuring the default position is one without any pressure at all. By no means foolproof, it allows enough of an illusion of safety that we are both comfortable accepting the risk.
Be well,
Timothy

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 38
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