RE: The Two Americas

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tj444 -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 10:39:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Looking at Clintons America, most of that is in areas that will be underwater with climate change.. no wonder Trump & the Rs deny climate change, they want as many Democrat voters as possible to drown as the seas rise!.. [:D] (Can't Resist) - Isn't drowning the most efficient way to get rid of vermin like rats once you have them trapped? yeah, I guess so (since shooting them isn't PC)... [:D] [;)]

MercTech -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 11:13:32 AM)
Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> To be sirius if not alpha centauri; Many people consider living too close to hundreds of others a study in the tortures attributed to hell. In broad strokes; the people that want a lot of elbow room also resent anyone telling them how they are to conduct their lives. When you get people packed dense enough (I've seen 300 persons per square mile used); it becomes absolutely necessary to regiment things to provide proper distribution of supply chain limited resources. When others are feet away instead of significant fractions of a mile; your very behavior needs be regulated to provide some illusion of psychological space and wellness in your neighbors. Consider this may well be the difference in personality between urbanites that "know in their bones" that things need government regulation and ruralites that find any hint of government limitation of personal choice and agency to be an attack on them personally. This is why I believe things should be handled on a state level if at all possible. One size fits all never does. What is right and proper for Manhattan can be totally unacceptable in rural Wyoming. The toxic insistence that there is only one way and "there outta be a law about that" from both the radical right and radical left just builds a fire in the middle of all the various cultures and ethnic groups that are wonderfully "American".

tj444 -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 7:20:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> To be sirius if not alpha centauri; Many people consider living too close to hundreds of others a study in the tortures attributed to hell. In broad strokes; the people that want a lot of elbow room also resent anyone telling them how they are to conduct their lives. When you get people packed dense enough (I've seen 300 persons per square mile used); it becomes absolutely necessary to regiment things to provide proper distribution of supply chain limited resources. When others are feet away instead of significant fractions of a mile; your very behavior needs be regulated to provide some illusion of psychological space and wellness in your neighbors. Consider this may well be the difference in personality between urbanites that "know in their bones" that things need government regulation and ruralites that find any hint of government limitation of personal choice and agency to be an attack on them personally. This is why I believe things should be handled on a state level if at all possible. One size fits all never does. What is right and proper for Manhattan can be totally unacceptable in rural Wyoming. The toxic insistence that there is only one way and "there outta be a law about that" from both the radical right and radical left just builds a fire in the middle of all the various cultures and ethnic groups that are wonderfully "American". well, people in cities in Europe live very close/on top of each other in smaller home/apartments than here and they seem to have a sanity about it and a fairly peaceful, live and let live culture that is the opposite of what goes on here... Why is that? The US has a selfish culture of "my right (even if I am wrong) trumps your right".. and so you have a lot of conflicts, most/many never resolved.. I think this country is going down the tube and Trump (or Clinton had she won) wont fix anything, this country will continue to be divided with the D & R parties having their day in the sun and lining their pockets while kissing the 1%'s arse.. I look at the US as an outsider and see 2 brats fighting, neither winning but so selfish that they would destroy something good just to keep it away from each other..

tamaka -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 7:38:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> To be sirius if not alpha centauri; Many people consider living too close to hundreds of others a study in the tortures attributed to hell. In broad strokes; the people that want a lot of elbow room also resent anyone telling them how they are to conduct their lives. When you get people packed dense enough (I've seen 300 persons per square mile used); it becomes absolutely necessary to regiment things to provide proper distribution of supply chain limited resources. When others are feet away instead of significant fractions of a mile; your very behavior needs be regulated to provide some illusion of psychological space and wellness in your neighbors. Consider this may well be the difference in personality between urbanites that "know in their bones" that things need government regulation and ruralites that find any hint of government limitation of personal choice and agency to be an attack on them personally. This is why I believe things should be handled on a state level if at all possible. One size fits all never does. What is right and proper for Manhattan can be totally unacceptable in rural Wyoming. The toxic insistence that there is only one way and "there outta be a law about that" from both the radical right and radical left just builds a fire in the middle of all the various cultures and ethnic groups that are wonderfully "American". well, people in cities in Europe live very close/on top of each other in smaller home/apartments than here and they seem to have a sanity about it and a fairly peaceful, live and let live culture that is the opposite of what goes on here... Why is that? The US has a selfish culture of "my right (even if I am wrong) trumps your right".. and so you have a lot of conflicts, most/many never resolved.. I think this country is going down the tube and Trump (or Clinton had she won) wont fix anything, this country will continue to be divided with the D & R parties having their day in the sun and lining their pockets while kissing the 1%'s arse.. I look at the US as an outsider and see 2 brats fighting, neither winning but so selfish that they would destroy something good just to keep it away from each other.. I don't think so. I think most people in this country aren't really hardcore left or right. Most are moderates who will lean more left or right depending on what they think the country needs. The system was designed for that.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 8:50:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick the problem with those maps is that they are wrong, as there were Clinton voters in all the Trump areas and Trump voters in all the Clinton areas. The split is artificial, being based on the winning vote (which was not always the majority vote) by county, and therefore ignores all the minority voters. The ideological divide is not as solidly geographical as that map suggests. In general terms I disagree and as reflected by the graphics comparing who and where Obama voters switched to Trump. It was almost all...in the large cities. (almost) Sorry, I just don't see how that detail (the location of supposed Obama voters who switched to Trump), in any way impacts what I said. Note I said "supposed" above, because there is no real way to know who voted for who, except in broad demographic terms, and given that nearly half of the electorate do not vote in any given election, even that cannot be stated with any sort of certainty as a large number of the voters for this election may have been non-voters in previous elections, and a large number of those who voted in previous elections may not have voted in this election. All you can do is look at what counties were won by each, and make your map. I think that's what was done there. It only gives a general viewpoint of the election, since the metric is binary. That map vs. a heat map (with varying shades, according to the vote tallies) would be the difference between digital and analog.

Edwird -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 10:16:32 PM)
Yes, analog is smooth and continuous, digital is all chopped up ... and that's how it sounds! Just kidding. But your description reminded me of all the shout's everybody's had about it on pro audio forums. Funny stuff. Even funnier in the hi-fi forums. And yes, I still have a turntable and a cassette deck and a R/R tape machine. Right, and a DVD/CD thingy around here somewhere ...

LadyDemura -> RE: The Two Americas (11/18/2016 11:27:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Looking at Clintons America, most of that is in areas that will be underwater with climate change.. no wonder Trump & the Rs deny climate change, they want as many Democrat voters as possible to drown as the seas rise!.. [:D] (Can't Resist) - Isn't drowning the most efficient way to get rid of vermin like rats once you have them trapped? Actually, according to Al Gore it is already underwater. He has been predicting that in 20 years the Washington Monument since 1988. I like the version of the maps if you click the link in the OP better, it assumes this too in a way, and gives the lakes and seas slightly funny names.

heavyblinker -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 1:44:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> To be sirius if not alpha centauri; Many people consider living too close to hundreds of others a study in the tortures attributed to hell. In broad strokes; the people that want a lot of elbow room also resent anyone telling them how they are to conduct their lives. When you get people packed dense enough (I've seen 300 persons per square mile used); it becomes absolutely necessary to regiment things to provide proper distribution of supply chain limited resources. When others are feet away instead of significant fractions of a mile; your very behavior needs be regulated to provide some illusion of psychological space and wellness in your neighbors. Consider this may well be the difference in personality between urbanites that "know in their bones" that things need government regulation and ruralites that find any hint of government limitation of personal choice and agency to be an attack on them personally. This is why I believe things should be handled on a state level if at all possible. One size fits all never does. What is right and proper for Manhattan can be totally unacceptable in rural Wyoming. The toxic insistence that there is only one way and "there outta be a law about that" from both the radical right and radical left just builds a fire in the middle of all the various cultures and ethnic groups that are wonderfully "American". Oh right it's because of population density and not because cities tend to be centers of culture, higher education, affluence and yes, immigration. They're not going to vote for populist, xenophobic anti-intellectuals who talk like bullies and whose economic policies have historically produced disaster. I grew up in the countryside-- obviously I can't speak for every single rural location in the world, but they tend to be cultural and intellectual vacuums full of boredom, frustration and hopelessness. I went to school with people who could barely read in eighth grade, who only respected violence and dominance and disdained anyone who used more than 3 syllable words. Their favorite things are guns, alcohol, drugs, sex, fights and driving around in their trucks for no reason. They gravitate towards simple language and simple ideas because they can't or won't understand anything that seems too complex... in fact, it makes them angry. These people never leave their hometowns and tend to have a lot of influence in their community because their entire family does the same... which also makes them very tribal. It doesn't help that rural locations have taken a huge hit economically due to global trade... and it's not just the factories shutting down... Walmart ruined my hometown almost singlehandedly, turning the entire 'main street' into a poverty-stricken ghost town, shutting down a lot of mom and pop type businesses. But the thing about that is, no matter how much some of the locals like to bitch about Walmart, most of them still shop there on a regular basis-- the place is seriously PACKED every weekend. Blaming globalism simply makes them feel better about their own choices... because it's not like the mom and pop stores are above buying from the Chinese. Then again, these people are more likely to vote for someone based on looks or traditional gender roles anyways, so maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Besides, Trump isn't anti-regulation at all... I don't know how anyone could possibly claim that he is. He's far more pro-regulation than Clinton... I mean, he wants to force people to pay more for their goods. Voting for him is basically saying 'we don't have the willpower to stop shopping at Walmart, so we need you to force us to stop shopping at Walmart'. But it's altogether likely that products will disappear from shelves altogether... so instead of choosing to investigate and take a stand with our money, no one will be able to get them anymore. We could have simply taxed the right individuals and redistributed the profits in the form of social programs, but everyone was too hellbent on getting revenge for their own lack of willpower, so now we'll have trade wars and no profits at all. So yes, now I completely agree that we need to free things up, if only because intelligent people resent having decisions made for them due to the voting choices of fucking idiots. I've always been supportive of decentralization, just not without the proper social safety nets in place... but forcing intelligent people to be part of this insanity just seems cruel.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 8:53:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird Yes, analog is smooth and continuous, digital is all chopped up ... and that's how it sounds! Just kidding. But your description reminded me of all the shout's everybody's had about it on pro audio forums. Funny stuff. Even funnier in the hi-fi forums. And yes, I still have a turntable and a cassette deck and a R/R tape machine. Right, and a DVD/CD thingy around here somewhere ... You just have to increase the sampling to get a better digital representation of an analog signal. For purists, it's not going to ever be perfect, but for the rest of us jabrones, it's "good enough." lol The analogy is perfect, too, since a heat map isn't going to have 1000 shades of red and 1000 shades of blue (max number of shades possible having a shade for each 0.1% of the vote tally). There will always be some sort of differentiation from the truth simply because of rounding. No matter how great your sampling rate is, a digitized signal will not be an exact copy of the original analog.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 9:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker Oh right it's because of population density and not because cities tend to be centers of culture, higher education, affluence and yes, immigration. They're not going to vote for populist, xenophobic anti-intellectuals who talk like bullies and whose economic policies have historically produced disaster. I can't find a polling precinct level heat map of my county (Lucas County, Ohio), but I downloaded an excel spreadsheet today (11/19) for the vote counts (HERE) There are 331 precincts in Lucas County. There are 16 local units (cities, villages, and townships) in Lucas County, with the City of Toledo being the largest. Clinton won 240 of the precincts, to Trump's 91 (no other candidate won a precinct). Of the 16 local units, Clinton won only 2, while Trump won 12 (two were evenly split). Of the Toledo precincts, Clinton won 197 to Trump's 8. Of Precincts outside of Toledo, Trump won 83 to Clinton's 43. Clinton won the County vote total by 33,199 (carried 59.16% of the votes). Clinton won the Toledo precincts by 38,830 (carried 68.85% of the votes). Trump won outside of Toledo precincts by 5,631 (carried 53.59% of the votes). The local units Clinton won were Toledo and the Village of Ottawa Hills (which is surrounded by Toledo; don't ask how that happened, I have no idea), while Trump won every other "suburban/rural" unit.

bounty44 -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 11:04:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> ive never been able to find the actual reference, but I once heard or read that one of the fathers of modern sociology (it was probably Durkheim) suggested that mankind's greatest problem is his alienation from nature. if im understanding that rightly, then large cities and the type of living they engender, are right in that wheelhouse.

Edwird -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 11:22:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird Yes, analog is smooth and continuous, digital is all chopped up ... and that's how it sounds! Just kidding. But your description reminded me of all the shout's everybody's had about it on pro audio forums. Funny stuff. Even funnier in the hi-fi forums. And yes, I still have a turntable and a cassette deck and a R/R tape machine. Right, and a DVD/CD thingy around here somewhere ... You just have to increase the sampling to get a better digital representation of an analog signal. For purists, it's not going to ever be perfect, but for the rest of us jabrones, it's "good enough." lol The analogy is perfect, too, since a heat map isn't going to have 1000 shades of red and 1000 shades of blue (max number of shades possible having a shade for each 0.1% of the vote tally). There will always be some sort of differentiation from the truth simply because of rounding. No matter how great your sampling rate is, a digitized signal will not be an exact copy of the original analog. You're talking to an ex pro audio guy, here, so no need to explain ... but, the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem says you only need double the frequency (an octave above) the area of interest to allow for the anti-aliasing filter, which is in effect before sampling occurs. In the original 44kHz CD format this involves a quite steep filter, which bumped right into the human audio rage, or just barely above it (22kHz vs. 20kHz). But the reason why much of the early CD re-masters sounded so awful is that everybody was used to pushing things into the red a bit (guilty!), which is OK for analog but an absolute no-no for digital. I didn't do any re-masters myself, not much studio at all, mostly a live mixer, but that's how we all operated, in any case.The experienced studio guys were experts at judicious use of tape saturation as a natural and ear-friendly compressor, but now that's gone! There are all kinds of work-arounds, such as using a compressor before print, actually just like the old days for much of pop/rock/R&B etc. music, but pushing the tape as a sonically artistic function is not available anymore. Digital sound processing compressors were quite harsh, too. But in the early days, the studios said 'we must do everything digital!', and so it was. Not sure how it's done nowadays, being as that my overly sensitive ears can hardly stand to listen to it anymore, and not being in touch with the biz for 8 years, etc., but much of what was (or maybe still is) heard on the radio or on a CD or DVD of contemporary music was sung/played into a tube condensor microphone (especially the 'big names'), sometimes an outboard tube mic preamp, and sometimes a tube ('valve,' for you Brits out there) compressor/equalizer, all before getting to the Pro Tools work station. And the mastering houses have a line-up of tube and SS analog processors, but most of them no digital processors. But the main reason I listen more to analog is because that's the majority of my collection. Through modern tube electronics. Ha ha. Most of my listening nowadays is at live performance, in any case, not a whole lot at home.

Nnanji -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 11:26:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Population density. I have to wonder if people behave like rats and become sociopathic when crowded too close together? Perhaps there is a breaking point in population density that causes a form of dementia that manifests as radical liberal tantrums? <this is snark for humor, in case any liberals are reading and need interpretation of the foreign concept of dry humor> To be sirius if not alpha centauri; Many people consider living too close to hundreds of others a study in the tortures attributed to hell. In broad strokes; the people that want a lot of elbow room also resent anyone telling them how they are to conduct their lives. When you get people packed dense enough (I've seen 300 persons per square mile used); it becomes absolutely necessary to regiment things to provide proper distribution of supply chain limited resources. When others are feet away instead of significant fractions of a mile; your very behavior needs be regulated to provide some illusion of psychological space and wellness in your neighbors. Consider this may well be the difference in personality between urbanites that "know in their bones" that things need government regulation and ruralites that find any hint of government limitation of personal choice and agency to be an attack on them personally. This is why I believe things should be handled on a state level if at all possible. One size fits all never does. What is right and proper for Manhattan can be totally unacceptable in rural Wyoming. The toxic insistence that there is only one way and "there outta be a law about that" from both the radical right and radical left just builds a fire in the middle of all the various cultures and ethnic groups that are wonderfully "American". well, people in cities in Europe live very close/on top of each other in smaller home/apartments than here and they seem to have a sanity about it and a fairly peaceful, live and let live culture that is the opposite of what goes on here... Why is that? The US has a selfish culture of "my right (even if I am wrong) trumps your right".. and so you have a lot of conflicts, most/many never resolved.. I think this country is going down the tube and Trump (or Clinton had she won) wont fix anything, this country will continue to be divided with the D & R parties having their day in the sun and lining their pockets while kissing the 1%'s arse.. I look at the US as an outsider and see 2 brats fighting, neither winning but so selfish that they would destroy something good just to keep it away from each other.. So you haven't noticed countries exiting the EU because of the controlling dictates or the riots between divergent groups?

Edwird -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 11:56:18 AM)
Britain did that, yes. What other countries?

Nnanji -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 12:09:32 PM)
Google is your friend.

WhoreMods -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 12:14:08 PM)
So use it. Who else has left the EU recently? Britain isn't even out for three years yet and they haven't fucked off the Greeks out. Can your friend name any names, or are you just spouting shit?

Edwird -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 6:48:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird Yes, analog is smooth and continuous, digital is all chopped up ... and that's how it sounds! Just kidding. But your description reminded me of all the shout's everybody's had about it on pro audio forums. Funny stuff. Even funnier in the hi-fi forums. And yes, I still have a turntable and a cassette deck and a R/R tape machine. Right, and a DVD/CD thingy around here somewhere ... You just have to increase the sampling to get a better digital representation of an analog signal. For purists, it's not going to ever be perfect, but for the rest of us jabrones, it's "good enough." lol You're talking to an ex pro audio guy, here, so no need to explain ... but, the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem says you only need double the frequency (an octave above) the area of interest to allow for the anti-aliasing filter, which is in effect before sampling occurs. In the original 44kHz CD format this involves a quite steep filter, which bumped right into the human audio rage, or just barely above it (22kHz vs. 20kHz). Stupid me, I forgot half the reason for my response. Yes, a higher sampling rate than Nyquist freqency helps, but supposedly we can't tell the difference if the sampling rate captures one sample per cycle, the the aliasing errors occurring thereby however requiring a filter against it, hence doubling of the sample rate. But in r/l the positive and negative signal phase never match up perfectly in any complex signal, so we should double the rate to get one each sample of the positive and negative side of it to begin with, aside anti-aliasing filter considerations. If the sampling rate is 88kHz or 96 kHz, then the anti-aliasing filter can be of shallower slope (less conspicuous), and the lower side of which can be held to an octave above aural range in any case. And we have to remember that we are always listening to analog anyway, speakers and ears not being at all happy with direct digital, so then the D/A converter before the other output electronics and speakers. Yes, I have seen one or two 'digital speakers' advertised, but whatever the electronic contrivance in all that, it's still an analog affair from speaker cones/diaphragms to ears. Likewise, in the converse, for 'digital microphones' (A/D converter in the mic), (which almost nobody uses).

tj444 -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 7:28:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka I don't think so. I think most people in this country aren't really hardcore left or right. Most are moderates who will lean more left or right depending on what they think the country needs. The system was designed for that. People dont need to be hardcore to be against the "other" side and fight like hell with them, you can see that happen on the forums here every day.. And most people dont vote on what they think the country needs, they vote to keep the politician they hate the most out.. or didnt you notice that with this last election??? [8\|]

tamaka -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 7:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods So use it. Who else has left the EU recently? Britain isn't even out for three years yet and they haven't fucked off the Greeks out. Can your friend name any names, or are you just spouting shit? I googled it... it looks like Italy is on it's way out and France may be also.

heavyblinker -> RE: The Two Americas (11/19/2016 8:32:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 People dont need to be hardcore to be against the "other" side and fight like hell with them, you can see that happen on the forums here every day.. And most people dont vote on what they think the country needs, they vote to keep the politician they hate the most out.. or didnt you notice that with this last election??? [8\|] I think there was a degree of that, but I also think Trump's nationalist protectionism legitimately resounded with people. I kept thinking Brexit was just a lot of people who were clueless about what would actually happen, or that I had just always overestimated the intelligence of the average Brit... but I talked to a friend of mine who supported it and no-- there is a lot of quasi-conspiratorial resentment against the 'global elites' out there. People truly do believe that the globalists and large corporations need to be stopped and that they can get everything back to the way it was in some rosy nostalgic vision of the past. They are even prepared to weather the storms... or at least think they are, because they are certain that things will just bounce back, or that they'll end up in some sort of post-global-economy where all of the things that have been driving the global markets to their highest points won't matter anymore and they'll be able to do their own thing on their own terms.

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