Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (Full Version)

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tamaka -> Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/20/2016 1:20:05 PM)

I couldn't decide whether or not to put this in the Economic Nationalism thread but i found the data so incredible i thought it deserved to stand on it's own. Note the amazing difference from 1985 where trade was pretty even and much smaller to where we are now. I think this is what Trump was talking about regarding the need for Fair Trade.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html




Real0ne -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/20/2016 3:15:58 PM)

then combine that, (which appears to be 300billion per year) with the national debt

[img]https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/international_investors_as_of_december_2014_large.png[/img]

[img]https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/who_does_the_us_government_owe_money_to%2C_dec_14%2C_pie_chart10.26_large.png[/img]


Its hard to ignore the high probability that this was most likely done on purpose to break the US economy, since the kids at the top of the food chain wont even notice this, the middle class on down get their asses handed to them.










tamaka -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/20/2016 4:06:47 PM)

Yes and China seems to have us by the balls now with their currency manipulation scheme they've got going. Every dollar we spend on imports from China is used by them to purchase US debt. So we're basically financing our own potential for demise and allowing them to keep this cycle going. At least that's how I'm understanding it.


CHINA KEEPS THE YUAN UNDERVALUED

China periodically announces that it will float the value of the Yuan, which has traditionally been pegged to the U.S. Dollar. The Chinese central government has so far not made any serious changes. Many countries have legitimate reasons for a fixed exchange rate, but a large, economically powerful country like China should have the strength to maintain a stable currency in the open market without manipulation. Economists suggest the Yuan is undervalued by 15% to 40%, though it is hard to accurately conclude. The People’s Bank of China currently holds $3.2 trillion of foreign-exchange reserves.


How does China keep the Yuan weak? By buying US currency and treasury notes on the open market, China keeps demand for the US dollar high. They can afford to buy and hold so much US currency due to their huge trade surplus with America, and they buy US currency roughly equal to this surplus. To keep the influx of dollars from increasing the Chinese money supply, China “sterilizes” the dollar purchases by selling bonds to Chinese investors like commercial banks. By boosting the dollar, still one of the most powerful worldwide currencies, the Yuan looks weak in relation. For the last few years China has maintained the value of their currency at just under 7 Chinese Yuan to $1. Today $1 equals 6.54 Yuan. Something close to 5 Yuan to the dollar might be a better valuation based on other market factors

Why should we care?

The cheap Yuan gives China an unfair advantage in the export market, encouraging the United States’ growing trade deficit with China and keeping goods in markets like India from competing locally.

Holding so much US currency gives China a lot of power over the dollar, and thus the US economy. What if China’s central bank decided to sell a large amount of US dollars and treasury notes all at once? The dollar could drop, leaving the US economy gasping for breath.

Unnaturally cheap goods and services from China hurt growing economies like India. India has a trade deficit of $19.2 billion with China. India has the potential to manufacture and sell lower priced goods, if the Rupee could compete with the Yuan.

By making other currencies relatively expensive, the booming Chinese population is discouraged from importing goods from other countries, including India, the United States, and Europe, because the cost is artificially inflated. This restricts a balance in trade and increases other countries trade deficits with China.

When currency is kept undervalued it leads to inflation, of which China suffers. As China powers their export economy through a weak Yuan, other sectors of their economy suffer. If the Chinese had to compete with goods and services on an even playing field, they may be forced to improve quality and safety. This would be good for their economy in the long run and improve the safety of goods world-wide.








Termyn8or -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/20/2016 5:14:46 PM)

What about all tht wheat and fighter jets we sell ?

Oh. Nememind.

T^T




heavyblinker -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/20/2016 9:46:30 PM)

The TPP was intended as a non-trade-war-starting solution to this very problem.
Trump prefers the trade war approach.




Kirata -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 6:35:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

The TPP was intended as a non-trade-war-starting solution to this very problem.
Trump prefers the trade war approach.

The application of reasonable tariffs does not equate to starting a "trade war". There is no mutual benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade with nations that have significantly lower costs of production.

K.






heavyblinker -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 7:49:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The application of reasonable tariffs does not equate to starting a "trade war". There is no mutual benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade with nations that have significantly lower costs of production.



I've noticed that practically every single Trumpeter out there automatically skips past the whole negotiation stage straight into their fantasy of America getting everything it wants with no resistance from anyone. I guess it's pretty comforting to think that America will succeed because of pure awesomeness, but there's a reason this approach hasn't been tried, and it has nothing to do with weak leadership.

The most obvious benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade is cheaper goods, which benefits ALL consumers as opposed to SOME businesses (the few businesses that would be in direct competition with China). What you may also not realize is that Chinese consumers actually end up buying quite a few of the products they manufacture BACK from the US at much higher prices... so the Americans essentially get paid to ship these things back and forth.

Tariffs will hurt consumers while providing minimal benefits to a handful of businesses... the poor will have it worst.




MrRodgers -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 9:22:21 AM)

It is interesting to say the least, how China's manipulation of currencies...is supposedly unfair. Haven 't we learned that nobody is to be concerned with just what is or is not...unfair. That is especially true given all of what is manipulated and 'unfair' in the world's economy when it benefits other manipulators.

ALL's fair in love, war...and profiteering.




Kirata -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 9:32:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

The most obvious benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade is cheaper goods....

Yeah, "cheaper" in more ways than one, and don't forget the additional "benefit" of unemployment.

K.





blnymph -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 9:35:51 AM)

Yes it is unfair, but this does not affect the USA only but all economies. But other economies seem to be dealing with it in a far more effective way.

But in which consumer goods sectors is US industry competitive on a global scale?




Nnanji -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 9:36:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The application of reasonable tariffs does not equate to starting a "trade war". There is no mutual benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade with nations that have significantly lower costs of production.



I've noticed that practically every single Trumpeter out there automatically skips past the whole negotiation stage straight into their fantasy of America getting everything it wants with no resistance from anyone. I guess it's pretty comforting to think that America will succeed because of pure awesomeness, but there's a reason this approach hasn't been tried, and it has nothing to do with weak leadership.


I notice all of the snowflake lefties forget that Trump said "fair" trade, which is something to negotiate. The fantasy seems to be that the left believes only they are the judges of "fair".


quote:

The most obvious benefit to be obtained from tariff-free trade is cheaper goods, which benefits ALL consumers as opposed to SOME businesses (the few businesses that would be in direct competition with China). What you may also not realize is that Chinese consumers actually end up buying quite a few of the products they manufacture BACK from the US at much higher prices... so the Americans essentially get paid to ship these things back and forth.


And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".

quote:

Tariffs will hurt consumers while providing minimal benefits to a handful of businesses... the poor will have it worst.


Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-announces-trade-case-against-china-over-agriculture-products-1473783354




heavyblinker -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 10:05:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Yeah, "cheaper" in more ways than one, and don't forget the additional "benefit" of unemployment.


No, low-productivity jobs are exchanged for high-productivity jobs. The problem is that the education system isn't helping people adapt.

If Trump really wants to create jobs, he'll outlaw technology and come up with more inefficient ways of doing things.




mnottertail -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 10:08:57 AM)

quote:


And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".


But this has been the tacit hue and cry under nutsucker forced free market communism.

quote:


Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

in what way will it hurt consumers more than anything?




heavyblinker -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 11:10:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
I notice all of the snowflake lefties forget that Trump said "fair" trade, which is something to negotiate. The fantasy seems to be that the left believes only they are the judges of "fair".


So what's fair, exactly? What happens when your trading partner doesn't think it's 'fair' at all?

Again, Trump's plan requires that China, Mexico, Canada, etc... back down immediately when faced with his awesomeness. I'm not saying China is completely innocent, but expecting them to break down quivering in fear when confronted doesn't seem realistic. A 20% tax on all imports doesn't seem realistic. A 35% tax at the Mexican border doesn't seem realistic. A 45% tax on all Chinese exports to the US is a trade war for sure... maybe it was 'just a threat', but if he isn't prepared to follow through then exactly what leverage does he have?

quote:

And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".


So wait... are you saying that the left wants to deliberately make America poor because of social justice run amok?

quote:

Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-announces-trade-case-against-china-over-agriculture-products-1473783354


I guess the lefties support cap and trade because an unstable climate will also hurt consumers, and by consumers I mean the species. Now go ahead and ruin the thread and my intelligence by telling me AGW is a liberal plot that hurts the same poor nations that we want to give all of your money to.

So by posting that link, you're saying that all of Trump's threats of 45% tax rates, military intimidation, and forcing China to bend to his will are actually just a ruse, and he actually just wants to do Obama is already doing? Will he backtrack on his opposition to the TPP?




Nnanji -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 11:13:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".


But this has been the tacit hue and cry under nutsucker forced free market communism.

quote:


Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

in what way will it hurt consumers more than anything?


How nice mental patient. You must be on your meds. Two complete sentences. Now, troll elsewhere with your leading questions. Make a comment if one of your voices is insistent.




WhoreMods -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 11:13:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
[img]https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/who_does_the_us_government_owe_money_to%2C_dec_14%2C_pie_chart10.26_large.png[/img]

I'd not read the figures, I'd have thought this chart was a break down of your boyfriends: orange is under twelves and green is under sixteens. Everybody else is the older guys you fucked while your mom was still pimping you.




Nnanji -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 11:16:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
I notice all of the snowflake lefties forget that Trump said "fair" trade, which is something to negotiate. The fantasy seems to be that the left believes only they are the judges of "fair".


So what's fair, exactly? What happens when your trading partner doesn't think it's 'fair' at all?

Again, Trump's plan requires that China, Mexico, Canada, etc... back down immediately when faced with his awesomeness. I'm not saying China is completely innocent, but expecting them to break down quivering in fear when confronted doesn't seem realistic. A 20% tax on all imports doesn't seem realistic. A 35% tax at the Mexican border doesn't seem realistic. A 45% tax on all Chinese exports to the US is a trade war for sure... maybe it was 'just a threat', but if he isn't prepared to follow through then exactly what leverage does he have?

quote:

And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".


So wait... are you saying that the left wants to deliberately make America poor because of social justice run amok?

quote:

Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-announces-trade-case-against-china-over-agriculture-products-1473783354


I guess the lefties support cap and trade because an unstable climate will also hurt consumers, and by consumers I mean the species. Now go ahead and ruin the thread and my intelligence by telling me AGW is a liberal plot that hurts the same poor nations that we want to give all of your money to.

So by posting that link, you're saying that all of Trump's threats of 45% tax rates, military intimidation, and forcing China to bend to his will are actually just a ruse, and he actually just wants to do Obama is already doing? Will he backtrack on his opposition to the TPP?

Ruin the thread? You mean state an opposing view in a discussion. It's nice to see a leftard actually admitting that in public.




heavyblinker -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 11:24:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Ruin the thread? You mean state an opposing view in a discussion. It's nice to see a leftard actually admitting that in public.


This is a thread about trade, not climate change... and I really don't need to hear any more about what Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen think, as seen on wattsupwiththat? and Marc Morano's house of lies and stupidity (as heard on The Rush Limbaugh Show).




Nnanji -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 12:13:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Ruin the thread? You mean state an opposing view in a discussion. It's nice to see a leftard actually admitting that in public.


This is a thread about trade, not climate change... and I really don't need to hear any more about what Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen think, as seen on wattsupwiththat? and Marc Morano's house of lies and stupidity (as heard on The Rush Limbaugh Show).

Ah, I see that you clearly have the rules in hand. So youre really worried a thread will be derailed. Nice, bring up Rush Linbaugh to keep it on track. LMAO, like you make the rules and enforce them.




mnottertail -> RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years (11/21/2016 12:36:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


And the obvious benefit to negotiated fair trade is that everyone competes on a level playing field. No more lefty "the U.S. Is an empire that must transfer wealth".


But this has been the tacit hue and cry under nutsucker forced free market communism.

quote:


Again with the socialist rant against a handful of businesses. Cap and trade carbon will hurt consumers more than anything and it's a goal of lefties. So why all of the sudden are there tears for consumers?

in what way will it hurt consumers more than anything?


How nice mental patient. You must be on your meds. Two complete sentences. Now, troll elsewhere with your leading questions. Make a comment if one of your voices is insistent.

So, you are up from your moms basement and additionally, along with your day job, cockgargling, you also cockgargling the voices in your head.

But as I expected, you cannot defend the fact that the nutsuckers who forced this free market communism down are throats are now going to save us from it. This will end as bad as your jobs bill, you know, the one that dumps ratpoison in the drinking water, and mercury in the air you bragged about, wilbur.

And of course it will not hurt the consumer, really, to not buy at Wal-Mart.




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