RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator

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vincentML -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 10:40:38 AM)
quote: In my opinion, these two subjects (stalking and sexual assault) while different in severity, aren't all that far apart in premise. I can only imagine that being stalked is a terrifying experience. However, I believe you have expanded the premise of the article cited in the OP, and that is troubling to me because the authors of the cited article already have a broad definition of sexual predators. I am not writing this to diminish the concerns you have raised nor to invalidate your experiences, LP. My dispute is with the authors of the Atlantic article. Not only is the definition expanded but additionally two of the studies used for justification are of extremely small samples (302 males and 214 males respectively) Studies of that size do not muster serious validity in my opinion. The survey of 43,000 adults related to the epidemiology of alcoholism and related conditions depends upon self reporting sexual predators 'who had ever forced someone to have sex against their will' We know nothing about these self-reporting sex perps. We even lack population numbers. *We are told that 43.6% of those who affirmed they had ever forced someone were females* So, how many of the 43,000 affirmed they were sexual predators? Twenty, thirty, one hundred fifty? We are left uninformed. The research cited in this article as the basis for the claim that female sexual predators are understudied and the corollary that there are many more females in this category than believed is lame and does not support the assertion made by the headline in my opinion.

LadyPact -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 11:42:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: In my opinion, these two subjects (stalking and sexual assault) while different in severity, aren't all that far apart in premise. I can only imagine that being stalked is a terrifying experience. However, I believe you have expanded the premise of the article cited in the OP, and that is troubling to me because the authors of the cited article already have a broad definition of sexual predators. I am not writing this to diminish the concerns you have raised nor to invalidate your experiences, LP. My dispute is with the authors of the Atlantic article. Not only is the definition expanded but additionally two of the studies used for justification are of extremely small samples (302 males and 214 males respectively) Studies of that size do not muster serious validity in my opinion. Which I'm completely cool with. It is a broad definition of sexual predators. Given. However, what we have to do is think how the term sexual assault applies. We can't only define rape as the 'stranger in the dark alley' type. We have to do better than that. If we did only that, we couldn't possibly address acquaintance rape/date rape. We might not be looking at oral, manual manipulation, or foreign object insertion as the same way, either. Where we might be in dispute would be what you are terming "small samples". Granted, what I'm using from personal contacts are probably in the same number rage. However, I trust my numbers more due to various reasons. One being, I didn't seek them out. I didn't go about 'asking' people to tell me what happened in their cases. No leading questions in hopes of proving a certain point. To me, those same numbers of people who were never asked certain questions, who gave info of their own volition, are better than any survey. quote: The survey of 43,000 adults related to the epidemiology of alcoholism and related conditions depends upon self reporting sexual predators 'who had ever forced someone to have sex against their will' We know nothing about these self-reporting sex perps. We even lack population numbers. *We are told that 43.6% of those who affirmed they had ever forced someone were females* So, how many of the 43,000 affirmed they were sexual predators? Twenty, thirty, one hundred fifty? We are left uninformed. No, it's not cut and dry, at all. Chemical inebriation is going to make this difficult. At the same time, some of this has to remind those of us in kink to the similarity of the term "coerced consent". quote: The research cited in this article as the basis for the claim that female sexual predators are understudied and the corollary that there are many more females in this category than believed is lame and does not support the assertion made by the headline in my opinion. For a very long time on this forum, I have held with the assertion that there isn't that much difference in TTTWD (these things that we do) in the sexual appetites between male Dominants and female Dominants. Sexual sadism, objectification, power sex, rape play, on, and on, and on, are not just the realm of male Dominants/tops. I've got a number of posts on various threads over the years regarding my belief that I absolutely CAN sexually assault someone, and I can even tell you a dozen ways that don't rely on the ability to physically overpower someone to do it.

bonturnmeon -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 11:59:56 AM)
aylee. I am a sexual predator, for girls only. xx

Awareness -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 12:17:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee If rape is something that people do, rather than something that men do, whole ideologies are in danger of collapse. To make matters worse, it turns out domestic violence is something people do, rather than something men do. And people wonder why feminism is held in such low regard.

bounty44 -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 12:50:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ...Not only is the definition expanded but additionally two of the studies used for justification are of extremely small samples (302 males and 214 males respectively) Studies of that size do not muster serious validity in my opinion. I didn't read the study referenced in aylee's op, but I can nevertheless speak generally to a few things you just said. your criticism of a "broad definition" is good and on the surface, I agree, but itd be better to read the article and see all the language in context and to see what the authors themselves have said about their definitions. mostly what is prompting me to write is your comments on sample sizes and validity. sample sizes of hundreds are not small, let alone "extremely small" (more on that later). the question in this instance is less about sample size and more about representation and generalizability. that is, do the participants in the study represent the population the authors purport them to such that whatever findings arise, those findings can be generalized to be the case in men outside the sample. its even a further challenge to make the case that the findings are generalizable to a larger population---and by that I don't mean "more people," I mean, for instance, all men, as opposed to say 18-22 yr old college students. selecting sample size is often a function of what the researchers have in front of them as opposed to a pre-determined effort to achieve the statistical power theyd like to have. regardless, the question with sample size is margin of error. the larger the sample, the less the margin of error. the smaller the sample, the greater the margin of error. however, differences in margin of error are not so great that a sample size of 1000, is so head and shoulders above a sample size of 300, or even 30 for that matter, such that the researchers need to go out and find hundreds more participants. the issue is what is the margin of error the researchers are willing to accept. lastly, the best synonym for "valid" is "true." did the study actually research what the authors purported to research. is survey methodology an acceptable form of finding information like this. were the questions in the surveys designed to rightly determine sexual assault prevalence. did the researchers claims rightly follow from their findings. if those things are all the case, then the study has "validity."

vincentML -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 1:25:25 PM)
quote: Where we might be in dispute would be what you are terming "small samples". Granted, what I'm using from personal contacts are probably in the same number rage. However, I trust my numbers more due to various reasons. One being, I didn't seek them out. I didn't go about 'asking' people to tell me what happened in their cases. No leading questions in hopes of proving a certain point. To me, those same numbers of people who were never asked certain questions, who gave info of their own volition, are better than any survey. Here is the problem as I see it: The Atlantic article and the OP suggest or imply that there are many more female sexual predators than we customarily ascribe. The surveys presented in the article fail to give us enough information about the samples to inform us whether the samples are reflective of reality. The 43.6% figure is especially egregious in this respect. Surely not 43.6% of 43,000 adults. That is terribly misleading. There is just not enough information given to allow us to draw an affirmative conclusion on their validity, on whether or not they represent the larger population to any degree. The article is a terrible representation of science, imo. You mention the unsolicited emails you have received. Many of them may be emotionally wrenching. But they are a self-selecting sample and we have no way of knowing to what degree they represent the reality of wiitwd, because there is a huge population of kinksters you have not heard from. Again, I caution that my intent is not to diminish your experience.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 3:28:00 PM)
quote: We are told that 43.6% of those who affirmed they had ever forced someone were females But the authors of that report had a very broad view of the idea of 'forced'. Nagging at the husband or BF; teasing, humiliating him .... God, I do think we're really into the area of stretching definitions, here.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 3:32:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee If rape is something that people do, rather than something that men do, whole ideologies are in danger of collapse. To make matters worse, it turns out domestic violence is something people do, rather than something men do. And people wonder why feminism is held in such low regard. You really are bloody moron when it comes to your understanding of feminism, A. I'm sorry, but it just has to be said. It's as though you believe that feminism can be boiled down to 'women good, men bad'. It's just inane.

vincentML -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 4:20:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: We are told that 43.6% of those who affirmed they had ever forced someone were females But the authors of that report had a very broad view of the idea of 'forced'. Nagging at the husband or BF; teasing, humiliating him .... God, I do think we're really into the area of stretching definitions, here. Doesn't matter what definitions they use, the numbers are fictitious.

Awareness -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/1/2016 4:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee If rape is something that people do, rather than something that men do, whole ideologies are in danger of collapse. To make matters worse, it turns out domestic violence is something people do, rather than something men do. And people wonder why feminism is held in such low regard. You really are bloody moron when it comes to your understanding of feminism, A. I'm sorry, but it just has to be said. It's as though you believe that feminism can be boiled down to 'women good, men bad'. It's just inane. beams Why yes, that is exactly the central tenet of feminism. I'm encouraged to see you finally acknowledge this.

LadyPact -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/2/2016 9:59:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Here is the problem as I see it: The Atlantic article and the OP suggest or imply that there are many more female sexual predators than we customarily ascribe. The surveys presented in the article fail to give us enough information about the samples to inform us whether the samples are reflective of reality. The 43.6% figure is especially egregious in this respect. Surely not 43.6% of 43,000 adults. That is terribly misleading. There is just not enough information given to allow us to draw an affirmative conclusion on their validity, on whether or not they represent the larger population to any degree. The article is a terrible representation of science, imo. You mention the unsolicited emails you have received. Many of them may be emotionally wrenching. But they are a self-selecting sample and we have no way of knowing to what degree they represent the reality of wiitwd, because there is a huge population of kinksters you have not heard from. Again, I caution that my intent is not to diminish your experience. Rest assured, Vincent, that's not what I think you are doing at all. And, I even get your point about not liking how the survey was done. Personally, I find it a bit sad that we have such issues putting men at ease about the issue that we even have to try to find ways to get accurate numbers, which is a difficult task from the outset. We already know this is true when we talk about sexual assault regarding women, because we have to accept that the numbers of those who report to the police are lower than the numbers that we're actually dealing with. If we know that's true in cases regarding women, we've got a pretty good guess that the same holds true for men. Not to mention, "made to penetrate" is a different angle, though probably a more fair way of looking at the issue, than we have prior. I don't feel I have a good grasp on this as far as general vanilla world goes. However, we get a little more info from the kink community side because we're supposed to be working towards (somehow) reducing our instances of consent violations. In this, it's my personal opinion that women who have had this happen to them tend to be more willing to come forward because they are going to get at least some support in the matter. Yeah, they are still going to deal with a certain percentage of folks who are going to pull the 'cops or it didn't count' stance, some victim blaming, and the wonderful 'it won't be believed unless you have enough evidence for a court of law' crap. However, they are going to receive a certain level of empathy that helps to make up for that. On the other hand, men don't come forward as often because there are some things working against them, and they know it from the outset. One being that we look at this as a physical force issue as the determining factor, which we know is outdated, but the 'you're bigger than her/why didn't you stop her' mentality is still out there.

sloguy02246 -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/2/2016 10:08:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: We are told that 43.6% of those who affirmed they had ever forced someone were females But the authors of that report had a very broad view of the idea of 'forced'. Nagging at the husband or BF; teasing, humiliating him .... God, I do think we're really into the area of stretching definitions, here. That was my point as well (in post 3), although you have now stated it a bit more clearly.

vincentML -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/3/2016 9:21:08 PM)
quote: We already know this is true when we talk about sexual assault regarding women, because we have to accept that the numbers of those who report to the police are lower than the numbers that we're actually dealing with. If we know that's true in cases regarding women, we've got a pretty good guess that the same holds true for men. Not to mention, "made to penetrate" is a different angle, though probably a more fair way of looking at the issue, than we have prior. Let me make two points here. I have lived a long life and in all that time I have understood that rape was defined as forcible penetration. I am having a lot of trouble getting my brain around the idea that men can be forced to penetrate by the female sexual predator. Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread: fear is not thought to be conducive of arousal in men. It more likely has the opposite effect. Now, that is my understanding. Admittedly, my understanding may be terribly flawed. I won't say it is impossible but I have to believe it is very rare if at all (in the so-called vanilla world, but how can it be different in the kink world?) If a man is a victim of a rape is he not more likely to receive penetration than perform it? The reporting issue: Agreed, it is well documented that female victim rape is grossly under-reported but we can't draw a similar inference on male victim under reporting. This report from the 2011 CDC study of sexual violence informs us that an estimated 19.3% of women were raped in their lifetimes while only 1.7% of men were raped in their lifetimes in the United States. The difference is a Factor of Eight. In my opinion that discrepancy cannot support the notion that men under report because of social pressures and self-identity issues. Then we are told that: An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non contact unwanted sexual experiences. The definitions of rape are all so bloody foggy, don't you agree? I have not read the emails you received and I do not know their quantities but I do share your concern for informed consent having suffered two incidents where events turned out to be not what I signed up for. So, yes, informed consent is a salient issue in the Kink "community" but that raises an entirely new conundrum of defining what relationships make up the community. What goes on in clubs is public and controllable but what goes on in private behind closed doors often tap dances along the fine line of partner abuse. Perhaps, you have a number of emails from the "hidden" quarters of the "community." Are they really part of the Kink community or are they part of the public community? The responsibility of police authorities? One other thought which may be totally anathema and even repugnant to you but it is out there so give me some leeway here, please. I have seen a lot of profiles on CS and other Kink sites you are familiar with and in discussion groups, especially on other sites. It seems to me there are a lot of rape fantasies and TPE fantasies and Owner/property fantasies expressed on those sites. I will shy away from saying ladies in particular seem to be asking for trouble. The FetLife "Explore" pages are filled with those sorts of images and postings. I know that notion is distasteful. But really, don't those profiles and photos establish and promote, if only by implication, the zeitgeist of non consensual pairings? I am most interested in your views, LadyPact.

LadyPact -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 12:57:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Let me make two points here. I have lived a long life and in all that time I have understood that rape was defined as forcible penetration. I am having a lot of trouble getting my brain around the idea that men can be forced to penetrate by the female sexual predator. Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread: fear is not thought to be conducive of arousal in men. It more likely has the opposite effect. Now, that is my understanding. Admittedly, my understanding may be terribly flawed. I won't say it is impossible but I have to believe it is very rare if at all (in the so-called vanilla world, but how can it be different in the kink world?) If a man is a victim of a rape is he not more likely to receive penetration than perform it? Vincent, first, I appreciate you being willing to even continue discussing this. I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed that there hasn't been more discussion here on this forum. I'd like to see topics on such subjects be important as to how they relate to our kink communities, because I think we're missing some ground where we could have areas of improvement. The definition of rape has changed in our lifetimes. Most importantly, the inclusion of date rape and then again when we had to start looking at the phenomenon of date rape drugs. These weren't common definitions of rape, as we saw rape as something that had to include physical force. However, they broadened our definition of force, coercion, and areas of manipulation by chemical intoxication. I'm going to apologize in advance here. In order for me to respond to a part of your question, I'm going to have to be a bit crude. As a female Dominant/Top, I'm fairly confident in my ability to restrain someone, engage in oral sex, (i.e., "force" someone to receive oral sex) and apply enough physical stimuli to produce an erection to accomplish the goal of copulation. That's not my ego talking. It's my basic belief that, in a large majority of cases, if I apply the right stimuli, the response of the other person's body is going to positive. That's even before I've put somebody in an altered state because BDSM play has been involved and I've made them more because I've manipulated their endorphins in their head. If I terrify somebody, maybe not, or I might have to work at it harder. Still, the majority of the time, I'm confident that I could succeed. quote: The reporting issue: Agreed, it is well documented that female victim rape is grossly under-reported but we can't draw a similar inference on male victim under reporting. This report from the 2011 CDC study of sexual violence informs us that an estimated 19.3% of women were raped in their lifetimes while only 1.7% of men were raped in their lifetimes in the United States. The difference is a Factor of Eight. In my opinion that discrepancy cannot support the notion that men under report because of social pressures and self-identity issues. We have different views on this. One of the problems that we have is that the terms "rape" and "sexual violence" are so emotionally charged that people (men and women) don't want to be in "that"category. With no offense meant, I got certain amounts of flack over the stalking issue. "You're a Dominant! Why couldn't you stop it? Can't you control a former, so-called s-type?" I'm very familiar with "social issues. quote: Then we are told that: An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non contact unwanted sexual experiences. The definitions of rape are all so bloody foggy, don't you agree? I agree, mostly on the premise that I am not a 'legal eagle'. I wish I had more knowledge of law, but I don't. Is it "foggy"? Yes. Yes, it is! How do we decide? Is fondling someone without their consent the same as rape? How do we define rape? If it's not PIV, but sexual assault is in there, somewhere, how do we categorize that? quote: I have not read the emails you received and I do not know their quantities but I do share your concern for informed consent having suffered two incidents where events turned out to be not what I signed up for. So, yes, informed consent is a salient issue in the Kink "community" but that raises an entirely new conundrum of defining what relationships make up the community. What goes on in clubs is public and controllable but what goes on in private behind closed doors often tap dances along the fine line of partner abuse. Perhaps, you have a number of emails from the "hidden" quarters of the "community." Are they really part of the Kink community or are they part of the public community? The responsibility of police authorities? I would not say "hidden". quote: One other thought which may be totally anathema and even repugnant to you but it is out there so give me some leeway here, please. I have seen a lot of profiles on CS and other Kink sites you are familiar with and in discussion groups, especially on other sites. It seems to me there are a lot of rape fantasies and TPE fantasies and Owner/property fantasies expressed on those sites. I will shy away from saying ladies in particular seem to be asking for trouble. The FetLife "Explore" pages are filled with those sorts of images and postings. I know that notion is distasteful. But really, don't those profiles and photos establish and promote, if only by implication, the zeitgeist of non consensual pairings? I am most interestedin your views, LadyPact. What I know... I did three years with the stalking issue. Thankfully, I made it to the other side. To answer your question, however, no, they don't. We are (or should be) quite familiar with rape fantasies. Such fantasies don't mean the person really wants to be raped.

LadyPact -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 8:53:52 AM)
Something I should have addressed better in my reply last night. My apologies for missing it. I have no better excuse than it was getting late in my time zone and I wanted to get the post up before bed. It relates to this: quote: Perhaps, you have a number of emails from the "hidden" quarters of the "community." Are they really part of the Kink community or are they part of the public community? The responsibility of police authorities? I'm going to split this up a bit. We've been talking about two specifically different areas of criminal activity. They often get lumped together because the after effects of the victim tend to be similar. (Please refer to the link posted.) There's one distinct difference. Thanks to the electronic age, stalking is a heck of a lot easier to prove. In fact, most agencies that instruct people on how to write a cease and desist statement will tell you to convey that information via email. (A cease and desist statement is not complicated. It's any version of "leave me alone/I don't want contact from you," WITHOUT anything to make the other party think there is a loophole. Never include stuff like "maybe we can be friends later" or anything that the perpetrator can use to say they believe the intent is not clear.) After that, you start keeping what is known as an incident log. Every phone call, text, email, instant message... Everything. My personal case? I had this even easier because my 'problem person' had a really bad habit of contacting third parties. Thankfully, a large majority of people saw this for what it was. I never dealt with people where I lived not believing what was happening because it showed up in their own emails and phone calls. Sexual assault victims don't have that advantage. They only have physical evidence if it's collected in a relatively short period of time. After that, they really don't have much except their own word about what happened to them. That's a pretty horrible place to be because the victim ends up doing a rotten number on themselves. What did they (the victim) do wrong? Why didn't they react differently? And the really sh^tty one; What if nobody believes me? That's all before they ever even tell anybody. Shame, guilt, and fear are already built in before the reporting actually starts and it's just the beginning. When we start talking about male victims, they have some extra stuff to deal with. They may not have the same fear as it relates to physical force. That's part of why we don't treat male victims the same and they know it.

Termyn8or -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 9:33:56 AM)
Where are these female sexual predators when I need a piece of ass ? T^T

LadyPact -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 9:45:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Where are these female sexual predators when I need a piece of ass ? T^T Term, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but statements like that really ARE a part of the problem. It downplays what male sexual assault victims go through. Like it's supposed to be a fun event or something.

stef -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 11:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Where are these female sexual predators when I need a piece of ass ? Just because they may be predators, it doesn't mean they're interested in loser nazi wanna-bes. Even predators have standards.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 3:54:47 PM)
quote: Term, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but statements like that really ARE a part of the problem. It downplays what male sexual assault victims go through. Like it's supposed to be a fun event or something. Yep. God, though - as a male sub, this issue caused me a strange old ambivalence at one time, as I'm sure you can imagine.

tamaka -> RE: The Understudied Female Sexual Predator (12/4/2016 4:17:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Term, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but statements like that really ARE a part of the problem. It downplays what male sexual assault victims go through. Like it's supposed to be a fun event or something. Yep. God, though - as a male sub, this issue caused me a strange old ambivalence at one time, as I'm sure you can imagine. Male subs are just male doms who want the female to do all of the work.

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