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Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 6:46:19 AM   
Chaingang


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The Case for Breaking Up Wal-Mart
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/39251/

Excerpt:
"Popular notions of oligopoly and monopoly tend to focus on the danger that firms, having gained control over a marketplace, will then be able to dictate an unfairly high price, extracting a sort of tax from society as a whole. But what should concern us today even more is a mirror image of monopoly called "monopsony." Monopsony arises when a firm captures the ability to dictate price to its suppliers, because the suppliers have no real choice other than to deal with that buyer."

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 8:22:03 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

The Case for Breaking Up Wal-Mart
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/39251/

Excerpt:
"Popular notions of oligopoly and monopoly tend to focus on the danger that firms, having gained control over a marketplace, will then be able to dictate an unfairly high price, extracting a sort of tax from society as a whole. But what should concern us today even more is a mirror image of monopoly called "monopsony." Monopsony arises when a firm captures the ability to dictate price to its suppliers, because the suppliers have no real choice other than to deal with that buyer."


Excellent article....I wish they woulda touched on the whole corporate / neo-feudalism aspect that's modeled after the old British East India Company. These globalist corporations become so omnipotent that they actually believe their power / influence supercedes that of sovereign nation-states. The trouble is… that belief is quickly becoming reality. Sad but true.

From my perspective, it's sad to think that the citizenry on a whole is being manipulated to fight a ''war on terror''..... when in reality they're really fighting for the privilege to one day be able to wear a blue vest with a smiley face and make minimum wage.


Keep em' coming Chaingang



 - R








< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/24/2006 8:42:12 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 8:52:46 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
From my perspective, it's sad to think that the citizenry on a whole is being manipulated to fight a ''war on terror''..... when in reality they're really fighting for the privilege to one day be able to wear a blue vest with a smiley face and make minimum wage.


You've stated this before, right?




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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 9:18:30 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
From my perspective, it's sad to think that the citizenry on a whole is being manipulated to fight a ''war on terror''..... when in reality they're really fighting for the privilege to one day be able to wear a blue vest with a smiley face and make minimum wage.


You've stated this before, right?






OhYeah.....tin-foil hat on, surrounded by pictures of Rush, Hannity and O'Reilly hangn' above the desk.




 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 9:27:20 AM   
peterK50


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I always chuckle at corporate spokesman who want government off their backs & tout a "Level playing field", then they run to government with open checkbooks to tilt the playing field to their advantage. Hypocrits of the first stripe.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 10:11:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Another disassociated news article, and the point is? We don’t know because there is no commentary except for the title “Free Market Failure”. How about if the header was “Free Market Success”? After reading it, that’s my interpretation of the link.

Here was a man, Sam Walton, who while Wal-Mart was growing drove in a beat up pick-up truck from one store to the next, kicking ass and taking names. He succeeded because of his integrity and honesty; but mostly he succeeded because of his hard work. His stores provide cheap goods at reasonable prices. The guards are there to insure the safety of the shoppers, not forcing people to buy at gunpoint. The same holds for the Wal-Mart suppliers. If their margin in thinned due to Wal-Mart’s clout it’s their decision to walk away. I do it all the time. When my competitors price a deal at a rate that if I matched I would lose money, guess what? I don’t match it I walk away and work on the next deal. That is business. It is survival of the most efficient. Business is a place where you can see Darwinism at work right before your eyes. If your product is overpriced for value, obsolete, inaccessible, or just bad; you die and you deserve to die. Why is there a problem with the opposite scenario? If the product is cost/value appropriate, convenient, modern, and practical; why shouldn’t you succeed?

Is there something illegal about the Wal-Mart organization? Their negotiation with their suppliers is nothing new. Donald Trump used to be a businessman before he became a TV star. One of the keys tenants of success was becoming too big to be allowed to fail. Back in the 80’s when the economy tanked and Trump and his NJ casino projects were going down the tubes he called in all his bankers and announced; “Gentlemen, you better lend me more money because if you don’t I’m bankrupt. If Trump goes bankrupt, the loans you have with me and my companies default. If your banks carry that much on you balance sheets as a non-performing asset you, my banking friends, are also bankrupt. ‘Partners’, here’s my plan, I need $250 Million to work out of this and I know you’ll be there for me.” We all know if you or I tried this with our mortgage we’d be living on the streets; but we are talking about huge corporations. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is. Businessmen make these decisions all the time. I have no respect for Trump and all the respect in the world for Sam Walton and his organization.

Where is the alternative? What model, theoretic or historic, can be used and pointed to as a pragmatic alternative to the existing US marketplace? Should everyone in the US make some predetermined minimum hourly wage? Who would decide that wage, the government? Would some academic organization combined with a Washington “think-tank” consulting with a social engineering firm lay out a utopian US business environment where the evil companies such as Wal-Mart couldn’t exist? All human history references regarding such an attempt failed. Attempts of social engineering have no example of success. Human nature documented throughout history indicates that working for the “common good” only works when the alternative is death and/or imprisonment. The reality of those attempts is that nothing “works” and you stand in line for a hour for toilet paper while the leaders enjoy caviar and frozen vodka. Is it that the upper echelon leaders with these privileges are favored government workers versus corporate officers that makes it okay? I’d much prefer the operating environment that they enjoyed with no tax on their bribe money, no lawyers looking for deep pockets to tap, and in the position as the government to make any environmental or industry safety law a joke. In any historical reference, what trickled down to the “common man”? But suppose it was possible to have an ideal and benevolent Orwellian 1984 style society. Whose gets to be “Big Brother” and set standards and vision of “right” and “good” that would be used and set as the law of the land?

I guess those questions are the reason it’s easier to just post a link and wait for others who agree to applaud your insight.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 10:17:14 AM   
Termyn8or


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I don't know how you all think, but I have avoided large chain stores for a long time. I have known about Walmart's antics for a long time and have only been in one once. It was the only place I could get an eye exam the same day and had broken my glasses. Then the only place to get the glasses made the same day was about 15 miles away.

That was at a mall, I had to get a ride because I couldn't drive and asked that we park as absolutely close to the optician as possible. I avoid malls like the plague, I know what kind of rents they pay. I think almost everything you get at a a mall can be had for 50% less, and not at Walmart.

Officemax, Staples, Giant Eagle, all on my shit list. I buy food at Vollick's, a small chain you never heard of with a scant 5 or 6 stores in this area. Heinen's is an even smaller chain in the area, one that I'll deal with when I want something special, they are noted for their extreme quality. A bit pricey, but we are talking food here and I am not a sheeple who will put anything in front of them into their mouth.

We have a large pizza chain around here making pizza for very cheap, another with buy one get two free. Yuck. I like good pizza, the place I call has two stores and their pizza is among the best I've ever had. But then two 8 cuts are well over $20.

I was recently informed by my boss that there is a real butcher down the street, like the old days. I'll have to stop in.

Dealing with smaller firms is a way of life for me, for several reasons. You might pay a tad more for a given item, but for one usually someone local is making money. Also, if there is a problem, one customer's opinion holds alot more weight to a smaller firm.

I've read some even nastier things about Walmart than those cited in the arcticle. For example selling at a loss until all the competition is gone, then raising prices as soon as the last competitor folds. They absolutely refuse to advertise locally, the closest they come is the major newspaper in a city. And as their executives get ivory back scratchers, their employees get food stamps. They also get subsidies to build new stores, corporate welfare.

There is a certain amount of bridled greed that fuels productivity, and is actually beneficial. Then there has been a term coined "avariciousness" which describes an unbridled, extreme greed.

Back when many people traveled by rail, one railroad got rich enough to operate at a loss, and did so until the competition was forced to fold. They got away with it and I think that may have been one of the impetus' for the coming anti-trust legislation.

Indeed things have come full circle for Ma Bell. ATT had to be broken up, so they broke up, and over the years ATT became SBC, turn on the TV, now the old SBC is the new ATT.

A few decades ago Willis appliance became Fretter's, with Mr Willis on the board of directors. It's all a shell game. I wouldn't be surprised if A&P eventually came back. But it won't be like the old days I am sure. They will probably be owned offshore and who knows where the money goes.

I liked the old auto parts stores, no Women, no air fresheners none of that. Paint, penetrating oil and things like antifreeze were on the shelves. You were not shopping and you did not have an "experience". They might not let you smoke pot (after about 1980) but you set your beer down on the greasy counter and told the guy what you want. He went to this big book called a Hollander, next to which sat an ashtray. After a few seconds "Yup, we got those". Parts came in a box, not a blister package. If there was a problem you took it back and he called the manufacturer, funny, he didn't dial an area code. You sat on a stool older than you as he straightened the situation out.

The part was not $36.95 plus tax, like $39.12 or something, it was forty bucks. They just back figured the sales tax every month and it was all nice and legal, but you didn't have to deal with change much. People would come in dripping oil on the wood floor, in some cases with no shirt.

Now I need a picture ID to buy garbage cans at the mega mart, but I can buy many dangerous and even illegal things on the internet. What a crock.

The biggest thing that bothers me about what has changed is that a Man used to be able to make a very good living by hard work, without screwing anybody over, but those days are over. If you want to get rich you have to either screw your customers or your employees, or both. Eisenhower warned of this, and it has happened.

The terrorists shouldn't have bombed the WTC, they should've bombed a bunch of Walmarts. One good thing has come of it, the old giants with their hubris have been put in their place. Kmart is crying uncle and Sears is beat down into the termite business. One thing about a bully, it is very satisfying when a bigger bully comes and puts him on his ass.

Of course all these rich folk are a drain on the economy and they are killing the cash cow. The consumer needs to look at more than just the price of an item, and actually think whether he needs it or not. My house is over 100 years old and my car and TV are approaching 20. I never go shopping. I know what I want, I go to buy it.

Now, if Walmart can do it, so can someone else, who is going to be an even bigger bully ?

T

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 10:49:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The terrorists shouldn't have bombed the WTC, they should've bombed a bunch of Walmarts.


I worked in the WTC and had friends die there. Even if I knew which Wal-Mart you or your friends and family shopped at, I wouldn't wish the same on you although your post may warrant removal from the gene pool.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 10:59:01 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

Another disassociated news article, and the point is? We don’t know because there is no commentary except for the title “Free Market Failure”. How about if the header was “Free Market Success”? After reading it, that’s my interpretation of the link.

Here was a man, Sam Walton, who while Wal-Mart was growing drove in a beat up pick-up truck from one store to the next, kicking ass and taking names. He succeeded because of his integrity and honesty; but mostly he succeeded because of his hard work. His stores provide cheap goods at reasonable prices. The guards are there to insure the safety of the shoppers, not forcing people to buy at gunpoint. The same holds for the Wal-Mart suppliers. If their margin in thinned due to Wal-Mart’s clout it’s their decision to walk away. I do it all the time. When my competitors price a deal at a rate that if I matched I would lose money, guess what? I don’t match it I walk away and work on the next deal. That is business. It is survival of the most efficient. Business is a place where you can see Darwinism at work right before your eyes. If your product is overpriced for value, obsolete, inaccessible, or just bad; you die and you deserve to die. Why is there a problem with the opposite scenario? If the product is cost/value appropriate, convenient, modern, and practical; why shouldn’t you succeed?




The Wal-Mart of today is a pale reflection of the company that Sam Walton founded back in the 1960's.

I could write numerous paragraphs citing various examples on how they skirt the line with predatory practices that violate our anti-trust laws... or how they're essentially a de-facto agent for world-wide slave/ prison labor. But lets stick with something simple, like how they treat their employees here in the US.

Just an example....

How bout the policy of hiring senior citizens and then taking out life insurance polices out on them with out them knowing about it, and then naming yourself as the beneficiary? They were recently convicted in Texas of this practice. Hell... the only thing worse than that practice was John Poindexter's scheme of letting speculators bet on the next terrorist attack in the futures market. This is just but one example of the pattern of highly unethical behavior that surrounds how they treat work force. I hardly think Sam Walton would have operated in a similar manner.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/column?oid=oid%3A93226


I will tell you here in Oregon that there are many large activist groups who have defeated Wal-Mart's attempts to place stores in their communities. Just within the last year-and-a-half, neighborhood /homeowner groups have stopped Wal-Mart from erecting stores in Portland. There's gotta be a method behind this madness.




 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/24/2006 11:19:24 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:12:19 AM   
Chaingang


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Mercnbeth:

Well gee, my view isn't implied by the part I quoted? Free markets don't exist and never did. Is it a point of interest that you take such umbrage at my attack on a de facto straw man type idea?

And since when are we supposed to just sit back and allow monopolies or monopsonies to exist and damage an otherwise more even playing field?

That's not the America I know...

_____________________________

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:23:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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Businesses can be too successful as stupid as it sounds and start wielding too much political power because of their wealth. It is unhealthy for democracy if the power of corporations can influence government too much but it is not the fault of the business.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:25:57 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

How bout the policy of hiring senior citizens and then taking out life insurance polices out on them with out them knowing about, and then naming yourself as the beneficiary?


My employers have a life insurance policy on me with them as the beneficiary. I may not be a senior citizen in age, but I'm definitely high mileage. btw - If you want to pay the premium you too can take out a policy on me or anyone. It is not illegal. The article points to lack of "consent" and indicates is may have been a condition of employment, with no substantive proof offered. Well, it was a condition of my employment too, but they didn't list the lawyer's name if I wanted to file a suit.

Facetious question: Who got more money, the poor "peasant workers" or the law firm representing them? I guess since they are the source for the purchase of a 'lawsuit lottery ticket' law firms are exempt from being accused of exploiting the "peasants". 

quote:

They were recently convicted in Texas of this practice.


Proof that they are under scrutiny and subject to consequence. It also indicates that they aren't exempt from legal ramifications for their actions. A contradiction from the OP.

I went into a Wal-Mart once in my life and don't anticipate reliving the experience in the near future. Based on their sales and performance as a company I am in the minority. The fact that neighborhoods and homeowners' groups fight against Wal-Mart opening is a statement of what? The don't want the traffic. They don't want the noise and lights.

The business community pays for the protest, as well they should. Any business in the vicinity doesn't want the competition. Were I a business selling product that could be purchased at Wal-Mart for self preservation I'd be at the forefront of the opposition. Look no further to the banking industry. Who is the biggest lobby group against Wal-Mart entity into this business - the Bankers. Why? Well maybe Wal-Mart won't think it necessary to charge $25 or more for a check returned because funds didn't "clear". Take my word as an insider, in 2006 banks transfer funds coast to coast in seconds. The 3-5 business days they don't release money to you that is in their bank is a MAJOR profit source for them. I hope we get another alternative such as a Wal-Mart Bank, but picking on the Banking lobby is much more difficult than the grocery store conglomerates. For all these businesses the "method behind the madness" is basic - survival.

A LOT of excellent buggy whip companies went out of business after Ford decided to manufacture cars that everyone could afford.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:41:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Well gee, my view isn't implied by the part I quoted? Free markets don't exist and never did. Is it a point of interest that you take such umbrage at my attack on a de facto straw man type idea?


The "straw man" is one who only protests and complains with no alternative. My umbrage is in the face of the fact that complaining is easy, using another's words is easy. Obviously a solution is beyond the ability of the article's author. Is it beyond yours? 

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:45:01 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I went into a Wal-Mart once in my life and don't anticipate reliving the experience in the near future. Based on their sales and performance as a company I am in the minority. The fact that neighborhoods and homeowners' groups fight against Wal-Mart opening is a statement of what? The don't want the traffic. They don't want the noise and lights.


Actually I have to disagree with you on this point.  It has nothing to do with the traffic.  Wal-Mart will bend over backwards to ensure that they facilitate the increased traffic flow, including building new infrastructure to accomodate them, like they did here in My city.

What it actually is is the desire to not have the competition.  Wal-marts have a way of shutting down small businesses because they can not compete.  This is the basis for wanting to keep them out of Parry Sound, a small town an hour and a half north of here for instance.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 11:48:31 AM   
Chaingang


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The solution is obvious: reign in an out of control corporation. How is this not clear?

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 7/24/2006 11:58:06 AM >


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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 12:02:52 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

reign in an out of control coporation. How is this not clear?


Magnanimous statements without the details regarding the complaining persons solution are useless.

"I vow to eliminate terrorism!!!" Wow - great let's all vote for Merc! "I vow to eliminate them through nuking Mecca!"
Edited to add: "Nuking Mecca" is an example of details being important and NOT a statement of personal position.

Now - how is it not clear that the details and the method of solution are not important?

Define "out of control"; better yet define "how" in the macro. Define the society that would "control" corporate activity. Define how controlling corporate activity spurs growth and opportunity.

"Reign in an out of control corporation." Why? What purpose would it serve? Whose purpose would it serve? What would be the purpose?

Do you find a need for Wal-Mart specific legislation? How would it apply to other companies such as Microsoft? Microsoft is much more monopolistic and anti-competitive. Because they don't have a store-front operation are they "good"?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/24/2006 12:33:09 PM >

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 12:05:01 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


My employers have a life insurance policy on me with them as the beneficiary. I may not be a senior citizen in age, but I'm definitely high mileage. btw - If you want to pay the premium you too can take out a policy on me or anyone. It is not illegal. The article points to lack of "consent" and indicates is may have been a condition of employment, with no substantive proof offered. Well, it was a condition of my employment too, but they didn't list the lawyer's name if I wanted to file a suit.


Really?  Did they purchase that policy without you knowing about it? if you google the Wal-Mart case I think you'll find that Wal Mart actually tried to hide it from their employees. What would you say if Beth or one of your children took out a policy on you and you didn't know about it?

quote:

Facetious question: Who got more money, the poor "peasant workers" or the law firm representing them? I guess since they are the source for the purchase of a 'lawsuit lottery ticket' law firms are exempt from being accused of exploiting the "peasants".


 HAR!! Merc.... In a few past posts I've mentioned the fact that my Dad is an attorney.... I've also mentioned that if eighty out of a hundred percent of the lawyers in this country were converted into engineers, we'd become a greatly more prosporous country overnight. I agree with you... but it doesn't exscuse Wal mart's unethical behavior.

quote:


I went into a Wal-Mart once in my life and don't anticipate reliving the experience in the near future. Based on their sales and performance as a company I am in the minority. The fact that neighborhoods and homeowners' groups fight against Wal-Mart opening is a statement of what? The don't want the traffic. They don't want the noise and lights.



I think it's a little more than just noise and traffic light; I think slowly they've become aware that Wal-mart is parasitical and causes tremendous dislocation within the community.

quote:

The business community pays for the protest, as well they should. Any business in the vicinity doesn't want the competition. Were I a business selling product that could be purchased at Wal-Mart for self preservation I'd be at the forefront of the opposition. Look no further to the banking industry. Who is the biggest lobby group against Wal-Mart entity into this business - the Bankers. Why? Well maybe Wal-Mart won't think it necessary to charge $25 or more for a check returned because funds didn't "clear". Take my word as an insider, in 2006 banks transfer funds coast to coast in seconds. The 3-5 business days they don't release money to you that is in their bank is a MAJOR profit source for them. I hope we get another alternative such as a Wal-Mart Bank, but picking on the Banking lobby is much more difficult than the grocery store conglomerates. For all these businesses the "method behind the madness" is basic - survival.


You've picked an entity worse than the lawyers lol! Wasn't it one of the Rothchilds who said '' Give me the control of the nations money system, and I care not who makes the laws'' But if Wal Mart's future banking practices are anything close to the predatory and unethical bahavior with regard to the treatment of their employees, I think I'll keep the Rothchilds. ; }



 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/24/2006 12:22:43 PM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 12:26:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Really?  Did they purchase that policy without you knowing about it? if you google the Wal-Mart case I think you'll find that Wal Mart actually tried to hide it from there employees. What would you say if Beth or one of your children took out a policy on you and you didn't know about it?


The insurance on me with the company as beneficiary was in my employment contract which I read and signed without the benefit of attorney review. The same should have occurred in the case of  Wal-Mart employees. Expectation of reading something completely and understanding it was, more than likely, the point picked by the lawyers to initiate suit.

If my replicants took out a policy on me, paid the premium, and didn't tell me I'd be proud of their initiative and foresight, but disappointed that I wasn't informed so that I could congratulate them. If it were beth, I'd suspect that an alien took over her mind and congratulate her just the same. Right before I released her.

quote:

 HAR!! Merc.... In a few past posts I've mentioned the fact that my Dad is an attorney.... I've also mentioned that if eighty out of a hundred percent of the lawyers in this country were converted into engineers, we'd become a greatly more prosporous country overnight. I agree with you... but it doesn't exscuse Wal mart's unethical behavior.


Bringing a lighter note to this thread, one of the most difficult items to resolve with our upcoming marriage is who will perform the ceremony. A judge, who by definition was, or is, an attorney; or a minister, whose presence would represent personal hypocrisy. It's no wonder that I believe the personal collaring ceremony beth and I shared has much more value.

Lastly, "ethics" and business are rarely combined in the same sentence when describing common practices unless the letters "un" precede.

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RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 12:37:15 PM   
Chaingang


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You really want to hear how I would curtail the power of corporations? We could be here all day...

You do understand that corporations are a legal fiction created by the government in the first place, yes? The purpose of such entities is to serve the public good and also make a profit for owners and stockholders. If the main objective of serving a public good cannot be met, I can't see why we can't just revoke a corporations ability to do business altogether. Die, fiction, die!

What's idiotic is the way we keep playing at controlling monopolies and other destructive entities while not actually doing anything about them at all. I look at the phone companies doing business and its just musical chairs really - one entity buying out another, being limited in some way, and so it goes. All bullshit and no results for the consumers or to serve the public good. Frankly, there are some things that I think work better as public utilities than as areas of fake market competition.

If you want more concrete examples of how to better run and control the power of corporations look at the UK or Europe more generally. It's not perfection, but CEO wages are not literally insane and the corporations don't get too fucking uppity either. But you know these examples anyway...

If you disagree, disagree. It's not my job to convince you that corporations have gone completely wild in the States, to me that's so obvious as to moot any need to prove it really. When sources like "The Economist" note CEO wages, fraudulent financial disclosures, and certain U.S. political instabilities as a reason to avoid investing in the U.S. I think the tide has turned on the issue.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Free Market Failure - 7/24/2006 1:31:53 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The purpose of such entities is to serve the public good and also make a profit for owners and stockholders.


Chain,
If we've gotten to the point of agreeing to disagree okay. It hasn't been personal and I'm sure you appreciate my challenge to be one of trying to learn about an practical alternative to the economic environment that produced Wal-Mart.

How is anything being done by Wal-Mart not serving the "public good"? The public is it's customers. If they didn't buy there would be no Wal-Mart. Better yet, how is eliminating Wal-Mart serving the "public good"?

Is your solution to "revoke a corporations ability to do business altogether. Die, fiction, die!" Who takes up the vacuum?

Yes - I'd love to hear how you would curtail the power or corporations? Why does it require a whole day? Granted it's not as simple as posting a link, but if it's practical and reasonable the highlights shouldn't be that hard to present. How about a "Top 10" list of ways to improve the US economically by curtailing corporate power, creating opportunity, motivating growth, and improving the living condition for all US citizens?

You can't use the UK or Europe models for a few reasons. Number one is that they are failing. Each passing year, and with the creation of the EU, Europe based companies are trying more and more to resemble the US model. The problem is they are trying to change in a non-competitive environment with unmotivated people used to "entitlements". The most obvious example is what occurred in France after the attempt they made to make employers not commit to lifelong employment for all new hires. Another factor to consider is that universal free public health care is covered by the government. There are other differentiating factors but those are the most obvious.

CEO compensation is not relevant. In Europe most CEO's live in company owned housing, and the pay for nothing during their tenure. At least that is the case of the CEO's I've met. I told one who invested with me that I would gladly replace my salary with his lower rate of compensation after we compared notes and I found out he did not have to pay for housing, food, private education for children, etcetera, for life; which are but a few of the perks of an EU CEO. When the highest rate of tax is 90% intelligent people find a way to avoid getting taxed at that rate. Corporate housing in the UK is a castle, maintained by servants paid through the government who is maintaining the building and grounds for "historical" preservation. You only pay the US CEO's compensation when you use or buy his product. In the UK you pay their compensation every day.

We don't disagree that corporations flex their muscles and use their influence to the limit. We'd disagree if you believed that was unique to the US. I'd happily adopt an alternative philosophy if an example could be provided, based upon fact, and not contradictory to historical reference.

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 20
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