RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


KenDckey -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 4:10:35 AM)

Where is the incentive to work? I think it makes people more dependent upon Government to take care of them so they can sit home and do whatever they want all day long.




vincentML -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 8:31:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Where is the incentive to work? I think it makes people more dependent upon Government to take care of them so they can sit home and do whatever they want all day long.

Well, the Finnish government did not apparently have the benefit of your wise counsel; that is why they are doing the experiment.




WhoreMods -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 8:35:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Where is the incentive to work? I think it makes people more dependent upon Government to take care of them so they can sit home and do whatever they want all day long.

So how does this simple and self evident truth deal with the fact that countries with higher levels of welfare spending tend to produce populations that resort to them less often?




DesideriScuri -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 8:54:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Everything depends on whether you're rich or you're poor, apparently. In the UK, the slightest percentage taken off an already enormously rich man will lead to the entire destruction of his morale and all will to work. Hence the last Tory/LibDem government getting rid of the 50% rate of tax on top incomes, for instance. On the other hand, taking money off the people at the bottom and on benefits will *encourage* them to find jobs. Because we're talking about two entirely different sorts of people, you see.
End of sarcasm.

You're also talking about two different kinds of transactions. In the first case, taking something away from someone's resources, property or labour. In the second, it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're referring to the discontinuation of some unearned benefit or other.

I am unsure that the you are presenting a valid dichotomy when you contrast reducing one person's "resources, property or labour" and "the discontinuation of some unearned benefit or other".
It seems to me that one person's "resources, property or labour" could easily include large swathes of "unearned benefits". It seems churlish to claim that every single one of say, Bill Gates' 65 odd billion dollars is an "earned benefit", or to argue that stock market gains or market manipulations that might greatly increase one's "resources, property or labour" are 100% earned benefits. How much of the Walmart heirs' billions (inherited from their parents) can be said to be "earned income" and not an "unearned benefit"?
I think you have some work to do to establish that the dichotomy you present is a valid one.


Apparently, Sam Walton earned those billions, and, too, the right to decide what becomes of those billions. So, too, did Bill Gates earn his billions. Never heard of Microsoft? [8|]




WhoreMods -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 8:57:16 AM)

Were you not aware that Gates' father provided the early funding for Microsoft?




DesideriScuri -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 9:10:16 AM)

FR,

What do you (not directed at anyone in particular, so fee free to chime in) think a "good" or "solid" guaranteed paycheck should be, in the US? How would this paycheck get disbursed? At what age do you start collecting? Do you ever stop collecting, prior to death? Would it be in addition to Social Security checks for the elderly?

Let's say $26k is the figure (easy maths). Every person 18 years of age or older can collect a weekly $500 check. Will there need to be any proof of identification? Proof of age? If we set the figure at $26k, I think we should also automatically set $26k (or whatever the figure is) as the standard deduction for taxes.

But, no one would be denied their check based on other income. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. can all get their checks, too.

Go.




DesideriScuri -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 9:11:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Were you not aware that Gates' father provided the early funding for Microsoft?


And? Do you know if the elder Gates was paid back or not? Does it matter?




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:04:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

FR,

What do you (not directed at anyone in particular, so fee free to chime in) think a "good" or "solid" guaranteed paycheck should be, in the US? How would this paycheck get disbursed? At what age do you start collecting? Do you ever stop collecting, prior to death? Would it be in addition to Social Security checks for the elderly?

Let's say $26k is the figure (easy maths). Every person 18 years of age or older can collect a weekly $500 check. Will there need to be any proof of identification? Proof of age? If we set the figure at $26k, I think we should also automatically set $26k (or whatever the figure is) as the standard deduction for taxes.

But, no one would be denied their check based on other income. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. can all get their checks, too.

Go.

The whole idea of the scheme is for those not earning or getting any other income to get a guaranteed minimum so they can live.
If they get half of the minimum via work or other means, they'll only get half the top-up.
So it would be means-tested.
And for that, you'd have to prove you are a legal resident and of age to be entitled to claim it.

The likes of Bill Gates, Buffet et all wouldn't qualify so they wouldn't get it.
The same for anyone working and earning more than whatever limit they set.
That would also go for anyone getting other benefits or pensions too.


I wish I had $500 a week; I don't get much more than that in a month to live on and that's for two of us.




WhoreMods -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:08:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Were you not aware that Gates' father provided the early funding for Microsoft?


And? Do you know if the elder Gates was paid back or not? Does it matter?


It suggests that he didn't build his vast fortune up from nothing Horatio Alger style, earning his vast fortune without any outside intervention.




blnymph -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:29:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

FR,

What do you (not directed at anyone in particular, so fee free to chime in) think a "good" or "solid" guaranteed paycheck should be, in the US? How would this paycheck get disbursed? At what age do you start collecting? Do you ever stop collecting, prior to death? Would it be in addition to Social Security checks for the elderly?

Let's say $26k is the figure (easy maths). Every person 18 years of age or older can collect a weekly $500 check. Will there need to be any proof of identification? Proof of age? If we set the figure at $26k, I think we should also automatically set $26k (or whatever the figure is) as the standard deduction for taxes.

But, no one would be denied their check based on other income. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. can all get their checks, too.

Go.

The whole idea of the scheme is for those not earning or getting any other income to get a guaranteed minimum so they can live.
If they get half of the minimum via work or other means, they'll only get half the top-up.
So it would be means-tested.
And for that, you'd have to prove you are a legal resident and of age to be entitled to claim it.
...


And it is intended to replace the existing social security payments which require a lot of paperwork and administration. One of the effects expected is that it might actually be cheaper in total.




ManOeuvre -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:40:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Were you not aware that Gates' father provided the early funding for Microsoft?


And? Do you know if the elder Gates was paid back or not? Does it matter?



Did you know that Gates Sr Sr put a roof over Gates Sr's head? Or that Gates Sr Sr Sr Sr appropriated his homestead from the natives? Or that Connor Gaetes was a chieftain and warlord who raped many a red-haired lass? Or that Claudius Gaetus Caledonensis was the local Roman administrator, and he had his way with the local natives? Or that Claudius Gallus Gaetus was a corrupt centurion who had more than his share of booty (emphatically, both ebonically and piratically)?

It all started when Thog, an H. Neandertahlensis from the sweater-vest tribe, clubbed Thag, an H. Neanderthalensis from the turtle-neck tribe, and stole his idea for user-friendly operating systems...

Seriously. Of Gates' 65 or so billion dollars, zero of them would be in his care if he hadn't done what he has done. Did he have luck or a leg up? If you read his story, I'm sure there were plenty of setbacks, delays, costs, near bankruptcies, and all-night working sessions. If each and every one of those had not been dealt with, he'd be perhaps a nihillionaire...




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:40:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
And it is intended to replace the existing social security payments which require a lot of paperwork and administration. One of the effects expected is that it might actually be cheaper in total.

That's why so many others are watching it with interest.
In theory, it would slash the cost of administering a single general benefit instead of the spaghetti that most of us have.

It will be interesting to see the outcome.




Musicmystery -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 1:26:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Where is the incentive to work? I think it makes people more dependent upon Government to take care of them so they can sit home and do whatever they want all day long.

Well, if I were offered my current work/income vs. no work and an income of $6000/year, I'd definitely take the work. So incentive? Not so much.

Hell, at one time in my life, I spent more than that on beer.




ManOeuvre -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/11/2017 10:51:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I think you have some work to do to establish that the dichotomy you present is a valid one.


I have not presented a dichotomy, but I think I see your point.

If I'm mistaken, perhaps you can help me out.

If you wouldn't mind checking my work, I appreciate it.

On the one hand, resources, property and labour.

On the other, a discontinuation of some benefit or other.

In the first group, I would place all personal and real property, the value created by one's labour, and value created (or lost, there is risk) from risking capital in some way. So I'd list Karl the bricklayer's resources, property and labour as follows:

- The bricklayer's house, valuables and savings.
- The value created by his action of laying bricks.
- The value created (or lost) by risking his capital in some sort of venture. The negatives of buying a second truck and paying wages will hopefully be lesser than the profits accrued by the additional work.

How did Karl get the house, his truck, his trowels, his boat? Maybe he inherited it, maybe he won some of it in a lottery, maybe it fell off the back of a truck, but like most Karls and most bricklayers he probably earned it by laying bricks. He may get lucky, but he has some idea of the odds, so he works really hard. As such, every new dinar that goes his way is either luck or a product him creating value or risking capital.

In the second group, un-earned benefits (which may or may not be discontinued)

- Karl lives in a country that offers workbooks free of charge to all men between the ages of 15 and 65. One simply shows up at the royal bootery and picks out a pair. They are paid for out of the royal coffers and the boots are worth 100 dinars.

Now there is an intuition that Karl will consider himself more aggrieved if:

A - The king's armed representatives comes to his house and tell Karl that he must immediately part with 100 dinars as part of a new tax initiative.

than if:

B - There is a royal proclamation that the free-booting days are over, and the program is being discontinued.

This intuition is well born out in research which uses expected-value gambles. Essentially, people are much more willing to tolerate risk to avoid losses of something that is already theirs, than they are to avoid missing out on an unexpected windfall, gift or other unearned resource.

I think that the fact that this intuition is well attested when broken down into micro-transactions speaks to a pervasive sympathy for the right of people not to have their things taken from them being much stronger rooted than one for privilege of receiving gifts.




Musicmystery -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/12/2017 6:52:27 AM)

I'd still like to see either of the posters claiming $6000/year is an incentive not to work make the case. I'd be genuinely curious.




Musicmystery -> RE: A guarenteed paycheck for all? (1/12/2017 8:47:30 AM)

Although the well-being of the unemployed varied dramatically from country to country according to various economic and demographic variables, the key finding was that the generosity of unemployment benefits had no effect at all on people’s drive to go out and try to find a job.

Study: Unemployment Benefits Don’t Discourage People from Finding Work

http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/04/study-unemployment-benefits-dont-discourage-people-from-finding-work/




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625