RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (Full Version)

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InfoMan -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/22/2017 11:17:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

so whats your point? hitler bombed poland so what? That the bombing of poland was the start of the war?





So you're just going to ignore that Wielun was a non military target which was heavily bombed destroying 90% of the city center despite it having no real strategic or tactical value.... just gloss over the fact that one of the first bombs dropped in anger by the Nazi party managed to land in a hospital killing 10-20 people.




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/22/2017 11:20:59 PM)

Dropped in anger? how angry was he? Didnt get a piece of ass the nught before or did someone piss in his cheerios?




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/22/2017 11:41:33 PM)

But wiki has so many complaints about the article you posted.

number of casualties

The polish acrticle says that there were 89 proven casualties and estimates range to about 1200 (but are highly doubtable).--93.218.134.75 (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABombing_of_Wielu%C5%84

in other words your link is mostly bullshit, and the pics in your link show only little damage.

estimates ranged to 6 million for the jewish holocaust which today is long since proven to be total bullshit too.











Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/22/2017 11:45:41 PM)

Letter to PBS on fraudulent 'documentary' about the 'Blitz'

Dr. A.R. WESSERLE
16 March 1981
PBS Television "The Blitz"

Sirs:

Rarely have I come across a television broadcast more vicious in intent and more warped in execution than your recent "Blitz on Britain." As a survivor of the mass air raid executed against my native city of Prague, Bohemia, on the Christian Holy Day of Palm Sunday, 1945, by the Anglo-American strategic bomber force - a raid that maimed or murdered thousands a few seconds before the conclusion of the Second World War - I say this:

1. There can be no comparison between the brutality of the Anglo-American bomber offensive, on one hand, and the minimality of the German-Italian efforts, on the other. As the commander of the British strategic air offensive, Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris shows in his Bomber Offensive (Macmillan, New York, 1947) 23 German cities had more than 60 percent of their built-up area destroyed; 46 had half of it destroyed. 31 communities had more than 500 acres obliterated: Berlin, 6427 acres: Hamburg, 6200 acres; Duesseldorf, 2003; Cologne (through air attack), 1994. By contrast, the three favorite targets of the Luftwaffe: London, Plymouth and Coventry, had 600 acres, 400, and just over 100 acres destroyed.

2. Anglo-American strategic bombers, according to official sources of the West German government in 1962, dropped 2,690,000 metric tons of bombs on Continental Europe; 1,350,000 tons were dropped on Germany within its 1937 boundaries; 180,000 tons on Austria and the Balkans; 590,000 tons on France; 370,000 tons on Italy; and 200,000 tons on miscellaneous targets such as Bohemia, Slovakia and Poland. By contrast, Germany dropped a total of 74,172 tons of bombs as well as V-1 and V-2 rockets and "buzz bombs" on Britain - five percent of what the Anglo-Saxons rained down on Germany. The Federal German Government has established the minimum count - not an estimate - of 635,000 German civilians were killed in France, Italy, Rumania, Hungary, Czecheslovakia, and elsewhere.

3. Both Germany and Britain initiated air raids on naval and military targets as of 3 September 1939. However, when the British attacks on port installations in Northern Germany ended in disaster, with a devastating majority of bombers downed - the Battle of the German Bight - Britain switched over to less costly night air raids on civilian targets such as Berlin and the Ruhr industrial region. By contrast, Germany replied in kind only in the winter months of 1940/41, a year later.
Observers indubitably British, such as the late Labour Minister Crossman, the scientist and writer C.P. Snow, and the Earl of Birkenhead, have demonstrated that it was not Germany but Britain that, after May, 1940, unleashed an official policy of unrestricted and unlimited raids on civilian populations under its new Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, and his science advisor, Dr. Lindemann. Professor Lindemann, the later Viscount Cherwell, coolly calculated that, by using a force of 10,000 heavy bombers to attack and destroy the 58 largest German cities, one-third of the population of Germany would be "de-housed." The assumption, of course, also was that out of those 25-27 million homeless at least ten percent - 2.5 to 3 million people - would be killed. On this score alone, Winston Churchill and his advisors deserve to rank among the maddest mass murderers in history. In fact, as West German records show, 131 German towns were hit by heavy strategic raids. Only the courage of the Luftwaffe pilots, the effectiveness of the air defense network and the strength of the fire fighting organization worked together to prevent a bloodbath to the extent envisioned by the Prime Minister.

4. Blood baths did occur when conditions were right. When the Anglo-American bombing policy reached its first grand climax in a raid on Hamburg that stretched over several days and nights in July, 1943, a minimum of 40,000 to 50,000 civilians burned to death. With the defensive power of the Reich worn down in the second half of 1944 and in 1945, the Anglo-Saxons indulged in ever more massive extermination raids against Europe. Communities of little or no military value, even if attacked previously, were now pulverized, preferably under conditions of the utmost horror. Christian holy days, and dates and sites of famous art festivals were select occasions for raids. Many of the most beautiful cities of Europe and the world were systematically pounded into nothingness, often during the last weeks of the war, among them: Wuerzburg, Hildesheim, Darmstadt, Kassel, Nürnberg, Braunschweig. Little Pforzheim in south-west Germany had 17,000 people killed. Dresden, one of the great art centers and in 1945 a refuge for perhaps a million civilians, was decimated with the loss of at least 100,000 souls. Europe from Monte Cassino to Luebeck and Rostock on the Baltic, from Caen and Lisieux in France to Pilsen, Prague, Bruenn, Budapest and Bucharest reeled under the barbaric blows of the bombers.

5. Nor did the extermination raids stop with Europe. Cigar-chomping General Curtis LeMay demonstrated in. the Far East that record kills could be achieved without resort to atomic weapons. By applying the lessons learned in Europe to the wooden architecture of the Asian mainland and Japan he raised "fire storms" which surpassed even those of Hamburg, n Japanese civilians were killed through bombing. Millions of others fell victim to it, from Mukden, Manchuria, to Rangoon, Burma. It goes without saying that LeMay and his colleagues could not have carried out their campaigns of mass annihilation without the backing of the highest political leaders in the land. In fact, the United States Government had placed orders for the immediate development of four-engined, superheavy, very-long-range bombers (the XB 15, the B-17, the XB 19, the B-24 and the B-29) starting in 1934. Thus, the Roosevelt Administration had begun to lay plans for offensive, strategic, global war back in 1933, the year of its inception. With the later exception of Britain, none of the other "large" powers followed suit: neither France, Italy and Germany, nor Soviet Russia and Japan the latter with extensive holdings in the Pacific. These are sobering facts. PBS, with its record of fine programming, has much to lose if it insists on presenting biassed reports such as "Blitz on Britain" or "UXB." If you care to tap the unplumbed depths of sentimentality, envy and hatred, start a comic strip. In the meantime, we'll change channels.
Give poor Alistair Cooke, who has been mightily discomfited of late, a much-needed respite.

Sincerely, Dr. A.R. Wesserle




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 12:09:35 AM)

German aviation historian Horst Boog claims that a Polish cavalry brigade and a Polish infantry division had been located in the town by German reconnaissance the day before the attack. From reports of Luftflotte 4, 2nd Air Division, I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 76 and I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 77 he concludes that the bomb attacks had been directed against these military formations and can therefore not be considered terror bombings. Due to ground fog, he argues, the German pilots missed their targets and mistakenly bombed the town.[7] British aviation historian Peter C. Smith[8] too, describes the bombing as collateral damage from bombs that missed their targets during ground support of the Wehrmacht operations.[8] Polish historian Jerzy B. Cynk, author of The Polish Air Force at War. The official history 1939-1943, wrote about the events: "Numerous direct support missions were also flown, with the heaviest attacks directed against the Polish cavalry and troop concentrations at Wielun."[9]

At 13:00 a German dive bomber wing, I./StG 2 led by Major Oskar Dinort via Nieder-Ellguth, were directed against this unit, followed a few hours later by Schwarzkopff with sixty Ju 87 Stukas of I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 77[8] Weather conditions were unfavourable during the day, with a visibility of only one kilometre and a practically closed layer of fog at 50 metres altitude.[10] Fog, mist and poor visibility thwarted many of the Luftwaffe's sorties planned for the morning of the first day of the invasion.[10] The dive bombers, facing intense anti aircraft fire, inflicted heavy losses on the Polish cavalry, and the advance was turned into a rout by 90 Stukas.[8] On their return home, four of the German Junkers Ju 87 bombers were shot down by the Polish 36 Academic Legion Infantry Regiment stationed nearby.[8] Three waves of attacks were carried out during the day.[8] The town was captured by the German Army on the first day of the invasion.[8]

Notes

Smith, C. Peter. (2007). Ju 87 Stuka Volume One: Luftwaffe Ju 87 Dive-bomber Units 1939-1941. Classic Publications.

Further reading

Bekker, Cajus. (1994). The Luftwaffe War Diaries. pp. 31–3. OCLC 30353222
Bojarska B., Zniszczenie miasta Wielunia w dniu 1 września 1939 r., „Przegląd Zachodni” 1962, nr 2.
Kulesza W., Pierwszy był Wieluń, „Rzeczpospolita” 1999, nr 211, 9 IX 1999.
Olejnik T., Wieluń – na pięć minut przed Westerplatte. Pierwsi zginęli cywile, „Tygodnik Powszechny” nr 35, 31 VIII 2003 r.
Olejnik T., Wieluń. Zniszczenie miasta 1 IX 1939 r., Kępno 1979.
Olejnik T., Wieluń – polska Guernica, das polnische Guernica, Wieluń 2004.
Pięciak W., Wieluń 1 września 1939 r., „Tygodnik Powszechny” nr 2, 12 I 2003.


It was a military target, carry on comedians, got any more laughs for everyone?




mnottertail -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 5:07:29 AM)

Yes, I have noticed your cartoons are less colorful, please translate the Polish parts into felchgobble.




WhoreMods -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 5:28:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
but you are lying again


Am I? Then why are you having such trouble producing a single scrap of evidence for any of the claims you make?




InfoMan -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 5:56:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

German aviation historian Horst Boog claims that a Polish cavalry brigade and a Polish infantry division had been located in the town by German reconnaissance the day before the attack. From reports of Luftflotte 4, 2nd Air Division, I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 76 and I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 77 he concludes that the bomb attacks had been directed against these military formations and can therefore not be considered terror bombings. Due to ground fog, he argues, the German pilots missed their targets and mistakenly bombed the town.[7] British aviation historian Peter C. Smith[8] too, describes the bombing as collateral damage from bombs that missed their targets during ground support of the Wehrmacht operations.[8] Polish historian Jerzy B. Cynk, author of The Polish Air Force at War. The official history 1939-1943, wrote about the events: "Numerous direct support missions were also flown, with the heaviest attacks directed against the Polish cavalry and troop concentrations at Wielun."[9]

At 13:00 a German dive bomber wing, I./StG 2 led by Major Oskar Dinort via Nieder-Ellguth, were directed against this unit, followed a few hours later by Schwarzkopff with sixty Ju 87 Stukas of I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 77[8] Weather conditions were unfavourable during the day, with a visibility of only one kilometre and a practically closed layer of fog at 50 metres altitude.[10] Fog, mist and poor visibility thwarted many of the Luftwaffe's sorties planned for the morning of the first day of the invasion.[10] The dive bombers, facing intense anti aircraft fire, inflicted heavy losses on the Polish cavalry, and the advance was turned into a rout by 90 Stukas.[8] On their return home, four of the German Junkers Ju 87 bombers were shot down by the Polish 36 Academic Legion Infantry Regiment stationed nearby.[8] Three waves of attacks were carried out during the day.[8] The town was captured by the German Army on the first day of the invasion.[8]

Notes

Smith, C. Peter. (2007). Ju 87 Stuka Volume One: Luftwaffe Ju 87 Dive-bomber Units 1939-1941. Classic Publications.

Further reading

Bekker, Cajus. (1994). The Luftwaffe War Diaries. pp. 31–3. OCLC 30353222
Bojarska B., Zniszczenie miasta Wielunia w dniu 1 września 1939 r., „Przegląd Zachodni” 1962, nr 2.
Kulesza W., Pierwszy był Wieluń, „Rzeczpospolita” 1999, nr 211, 9 IX 1999.
Olejnik T., Wieluń – na pięć minut przed Westerplatte. Pierwsi zginęli cywile, „Tygodnik Powszechny” nr 35, 31 VIII 2003 r.
Olejnik T., Wieluń. Zniszczenie miasta 1 IX 1939 r., Kępno 1979.
Olejnik T., Wieluń – polska Guernica, das polnische Guernica, Wieluń 2004.
Pięciak W., Wieluń 1 września 1939 r., „Tygodnik Powszechny” nr 2, 12 I 2003.


It was a military target, carry on comedians, got any more laughs for everyone?



What Polish Cavalry Brigade?
What Polish Infantry Division?
What Anti-Aircraft Battery?

You see a Brigade and Division is actually a rather sizable portion of troops. A Cavalry Brigade is something like 1000-2000 troops with horses, while an Infantry Division can be upwards of 10,000 troops with ~1000 support personal and a myriad of support equipment. As such - Nations like to keep track of them because they are such a large force. The idea that such a sizable force was deployed while no documentation of such a force of that size or disposition being deployed to the area exists in any military records should give you pause.

What's more - It doesn't matter what recon reports say - Bombing a School which intel states is occupied by Terrorist units is not an excuse when later you find out that it was actually filled with school children....

As such there is no documentation that any military unit was damaged or suffered losses as subject to the Wielun bombing, so even if there was intel to say that troops where there... when the bombs landed the place was devoid of any military presence.


Lastly - the Bombers used where the Junkers Ju-87 Stuka. The Stuka was a dive bomber which was renown for it's extremely high accuracy when bombing, even in less then optimal conditions. When bombing it would dive at the target, then drop at relatively low altitude to ensure it would hit at least near the target, So the idea that these Dive Bombers missed so much that 70% of the city was 'collateral damage' is laughable. If you where talking about the Heinkel HE 111, which was a traditional Gravity Bomber... then sure - misses can be made and such collateral damage can exist. But not for what was largely viewed as a Precision Bomber through out the entirety of the war.




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:37:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

The idea that such a sizable force was deployed while no documentation of such a force of that size or disposition being deployed to the area exists in any military records should give you pause.

What's more - It doesn't matter what recon reports say - Bombing a School which intel states is occupied by Terrorist units is not an excuse when later you find out that it was actually filled with school children....

As such there is no documentation that any military unit was damaged or suffered losses as subject to the Wielun bombing, so even if there was intel to say that troops where there... when the bombs landed the place was devoid of any military presence.




So its ok for the asswipe brits to target civilians and indiscriminately bomb and burn german cities throughout the whole war but if a german didnt the bullseye of an intended target due to fog they are terrorists.

geebus fuck you are god damned hypocrite.
you have the quotes from the historians, not my problem if they dont fit your propaganda, and to pretend nothing exists when you have not bothered to look and actually see if it exists is a lie. If you think the historians were wrong then become a revisionist and change understood history, but to come out here armed with lies and bullshit does not look very good for you, not that you give a damn.




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:40:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
but you are lying again


Am I? Then why are you having such trouble producing a single scrap of evidence for any of the claims you make?




Still in denial and pretending I didnt cite it eh LMAO [8|]




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:41:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yes, I have noticed your cartoons are less colorful, please translate the Polish parts into felchgobble.



thats your department mass mountain extinction shun LOL

Seems you kids are running out of gas.




WhoreMods -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:42:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
So its ok for the asswipe brits to target civilians and indiscriminately bomb and burn german cities throughout the whole war but if a german didnt the bullseye of an intended target due to fog they are terrorists.

Why not? That's exactly what you're claiming for the luftwaffe. Either both air forces get the benefit of the doubt, or neither does. Anything else is a double standard and hypocrisy.

If you're back to making strange claims about the invasion of Poland, have you managed to produce a rationale for Hitler invading France, Belgium and the Netherlands when all he wanted was the Polish corridor back, btw?




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:45:50 AM)

FYI wars start long before the first bomb is dropped. Britain, US puppets of Zionist overlords started and are at the bottom all wars.




WhoreMods -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:46:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
but you are lying again


Am I? Then why are you having such trouble producing a single scrap of evidence for any of the claims you make?




Still in denial and pretending I didnt cite it eh LMAO [8|]

When you manage to cite something, I'll acknowledge that you've done so.
However, if you're too stupid to grasp that alleged quotations with no provenance or source, gifs you've found online, documentaries on youtube that say the opposite of what you claim they say, and scans of supposed documents that you can't even name aren't any good as a citation, then that's too much to hope for.




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:48:26 AM)

Thats a lie, since I sited several somethings and you refuse to acknowledge anything. try again DaNile




WhoreMods -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:53:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

FYI wars start long before the first bomb is dropped. Britain, US puppets of Zionist overlords started and are at the bottom all wars.

What, Britain invaded Poland?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Thats a lie, since I sited several somethings and you refuse to acknowledge anything. try again DaNile

No, you cited a load of worthless drivel none of which is worth even the steam off a drunk's piss as proof of anything.




Real0ne -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 6:58:53 AM)

British US and European Zionists started BOTH world wars. I posted the data long ago, all you can do is deny all data and spew the same bullshit about 6 million holocausted jews and you have not yet posted any damn thing but your propagandist rhetoric and denial of the facts.

Mayors, police chiefs, fire marshals, victims, and witnesses on the site suffering the event are not worthless drivel. Especially unlike your 6 million which has long since proven to be egg on your faces bullshit, the material evidence, well known refugee movements, churchill and eisenhowers illegal targetting of civilians all support their statements.



In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do."

RAF January 1945



“There were no warning sirens. We were completely surprised and rushed back down to the cellars of the hospital. But these quickly became hopelessly overcrowded with people who could no longer find shelter in their own burning buildings. The crush was unbearable, we were so tight you could not fall over.”“Apart from the fire risk, it was becoming increasingly impossible to breath in the cellar because the air was being pulled out by the increasing strength of the blaze.”

“[Outside] We could not stand up, we were on all fours, crawling. the wind was full of sparks and carrying bits of blazing furniture, debris and burning bits of bodies.”

“There were charred bodies everywhere.”

“The experience of the bombing was far worse than being on the Russian front, where I was a front-line machine gunner.”

Rudolph Eichner



Your whole laughable offensive is simply to deny deny deny.

They wasted the refugees fleeing from the russians to dresden who were no longer able to fight and indiscrimnately targeted civilians and hospitals and personel carries with red crosses on them.








vincentML -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 7:28:23 AM)

quote:

British US and European Zionists started BOTH world wars.


Sure they did, RO. Hitler and the Kaiser were innocents caught up in the historical inevitability of those crooked nosed well-polluters. [8|]





mnottertail -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 7:31:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yes, I have noticed your cartoons are less colorful, please translate the Polish parts into felchgobble.



thats your department mass mountain extinction shun LOL

Seems you kids are running out of gas.


Nope, we still are enjoying calling you a retard and seeing you slobber your hallucinatory cartoons




WickedsDesire -> RE: A Moment of Silence in Memory of The Holocaust (3/23/2017 8:00:28 AM)

I said before the UK (and the Americans) bombed the fuk out of Dresden R1 and? Not sure why you are hellbent on keeping this one going.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden I am going with these figures naturally An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed, although inflated casualty figures have been promulgated over the years by authors such as David Irving.....Large variations in the claimed death toll have fueled the controversy. In March 1945, the German government ordered its press to publish a falsified casualty figure of 200,000 for the Dresden raids, and death toll estimates as high as 500,000 have been given.[11][12][13] The city authorities at the time estimated no more than 25,000 victims, a figure that subsequent investigations supported, including a 2010 study commissioned by the city council.

If you want to double those figures up i will not argue....but if you insist on increasing them by factor of 20, from 25, 000 to 500, 000, of course I will argue.

The better singular question is to ask was it a war crime? Of course it was. It was a scorched earth tactic.

that aside I dont think anyone's beating attrocity wise, in this exact order, the:
1. Russians - mainly on their own people - i know.
2. Germans
3. Americans - yep those two bombs were a war crime....tis why I have them at number 3.
4. Japanese

That aside R1 I always cite ~100 million died during WW2, or as a consequence off...but more typical figures used are Over 60 million people were killed, which was about 3% of the 1940 world population (est. 2.3 billion). The tables below give a detailed country-by-country count of human losses. World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total deaths ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties





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