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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:13:59 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's a flawed comparison, vincent.

There's a world of difference between "I'm a priest and so my beliefs are the one true way" kind of thing you're claiming and the years of training and experience that makes one a policy expert in, say, foreign affairs, particularly with a focus and long knowledge of a region, its history, and its current movements.

To dismiss the priest, fair enough. To dismiss the policy expert is just foolish. That doesn't mean one must agree, but certainly one would be wise to seriously consider his take on things, and if one disagrees, that one brings other compelling evidence and or experts to the table, not just "I want it to be otherwise."



For as much flak as President Trump has been taking, the last couple of days about how his cabinet members don't share all his beliefs, I think it points to exactly what you're saying.

The most glaring example is: President Trump says he believes waterboarding works. Gen/Sec Mattis disagrees. The president knew that, when he chose Gen/Sec Mattis. I think it was just yesterday that the president re-affirmed his belief and added: " ... but I'm going with Mattis. He's my guy" (I may have paraphrased, a little, but not where it counts. The president says he is going to defer to the Sec. in this matter).

With the exception of Dr. Carson (the jury's out), I don't think there's anyone who isn't qualified for the positions for which they've been nominated and there's not many sycophants amongst them.

I don't disqualify the idea of an autodidact being an expert, if they've devoted a good portion of their time/life to studying their particular "field". Certainly, I don't want a guy that slept at a Holiday Inn Express™ walking into my neurologist's office and getting to work on me, but someone that grew up in public housing just might know a thing or two that helps them steer HUD the way it should be stewarded.



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/28/2017 12:30:45 PM >

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:25:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I caught that bit about Mattis too, and had the same reaction.

A lot of the cabinet posts seem to be about dismantling their charges rather than running them.

But we'll see. Nothing much can be done beyond perhaps delaying one or two anyway. Then you just have to deal with the next similar appointee.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:40:20 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I caught that bit about Mattis too, and had the same reaction.

A lot of the cabinet posts seem to be about dismantling their charges rather than running them.

But we'll see. Nothing much can be done beyond perhaps delaying one or two anyway. Then you just have to deal with the next similar appointee.



To be fair, there are some that believe that some of these agencies need to be (if not "dismantled") at least heavily renovated and the president did mention "draining the swamp" on a few occasions, while he was campaigning



Michael

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:42:29 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I think he skipped the "filled with billionaires with no experience" part.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:42:51 PM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		You might want to take another look at the nominee for Sec. of Education? Zero professional qualifications or experience, And NO organizational executive experience, other than knowing how to get quoted in media. Mega wealthy, married even better. Huge conflicts of interest from ownership in for-profit educational corporations. NEVER attended a public school, seems focused on dismantiling basic education for everyone without deep pockets in the US, a big step back from the late 1800s, to say nothing of today.
For a relatively gentle treatment on her: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/01/what-makes-betsy-devos-such-an-unusual-nominee-for-education-secretary/513581/

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 12:51:58 PM   
DaddySatyr


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I'm a bit confused. Maybe you can help me out:

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

You might want to take another look at the nominee for Sec. of Education? Zero professional qualifications or experience, And NO organizational executive experience, ...



quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Huge conflicts of interest from ownership in for-profit educational corporations.



These two statements seem to be in conflict. If she has a history of owning educational corporations (for profit or otherwise), how can she have "Zero professional qualifications and NO organizational executive experience"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

For a relatively gentle treatment on her: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/01/what-makes-betsy-devos-such-an-unusual-nominee-for-education-secretary/513581/



I've read quite a bit about Ms. Devos since I had never heard of her before she met with the president in Mar-A-Lago. Thank you for posting the link, anyway.



Michael

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 4:42:07 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's a flawed comparison, vincent.

There's a world of difference between "I'm a priest and so my beliefs are the one true way" kind of thing you're claiming and the years of training and experience that makes one a policy expert in, say, foreign affairs, particularly with a focus and long knowledge of a region, its history, and its current movements.

To dismiss the priest, fair enough. To dismiss the policy expert is just foolish. That doesn't mean one must agree, but certainly one would be wise to seriously consider his take on things, and if one disagrees, that one brings other compelling evidence and or experts to the table, not just "I want it to be otherwise."



A person in a position to make an actionable policy decision that has wide and serious consequences would do well to rely on experts. However, it should be noted that expert advisors often come with their own agenda and policy decisions are subject to political interactions between the leader and his advisors. It is foolish to believe that political decisions are made purely from evidence and reason.

However, as I read him, Tom Nichols is not talking about decision making; he is complaining about having debates with people who get their information from the internet. In that respect, I believe my analogy to the priesthood has some merit.

None of this ignorance stops people from arguing as though they are research scientists. Tackle a complex policy issue with a layman today, and you will get snippy and sophistic demands to show ever increasing amounts of “proof” or “evidence” for your case, even though the ordinary interlocutor in such debates isn’t really equipped to decide what constitutes “evidence” or to know it when it’s presented.

[SNIP]

This subverts any real hope of a conversation, because it is simply exhausting — at least speaking from my perspective as the policy expert in most of these discussions — to have to start from the very beginning of every argument and establish the merest baseline of knowledge, and then constantly to have to negotiate the rules of logical argument.


We are talking here about dialogue in the public square. Even stupid people are entitled to stupid opinions in that setting.

Sure, I understand his point, but if he is exhausted from dealing with the common people let him stay off the internet.

Why should it matter to him if someone on the internet has a screwy notion?

What a surprise . . .





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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/28/2017 11:25:58 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Something's been nagging at me, since earlier today and part of what I posted, earlier kind of touches on it:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


To deny the liberal take-over of the education system isn't really intellectual honesty. I don't deny there are exceptions (as I mentioned), but for the most part (to borrow a phrase from one of my recent posts where I quoted Roosevelt) :"the crucible" is turning out good, little mindless, Pablum©-pukers that do little thinking of their own and just sop up the message that their instructors give them.



Michael


Let me take a moment to explain/apologize (not as much) for my use of "Pablum©-puker". It's not exactly meant as an insult. I'm old enough to remember "Pablum©" which was a baby formula. Some of the nabobs remind me of babies that are "force"-fed the Pablum© until they regurgitate it back out. So, it's a way of saying: a person who doesn't "argue" intellectually, but just loads up with "talking points" and heads off to do battle.

So, that out of the way ...

What bothers me most about the way I perceive the educational system, today is the loss of critical thinking skills. I think the indoctrination has squelched the students actually thinking for themselves. I think some of them may think they're not allowed to "challenge" what a professor/instructor teaches.

I've had a couple of instructors pull me to the side and tell me that as (usually) the eldest person in the room, they wouldn't mind if I (respectfully) challenged their teaching, if I disagree. Not HOW they teach a class, but how they present things that aren't necessarily "facts". I was told that my younger piers won't tend to do that.

One of these professors was an adjunct at my CC and a full professor at the school where I am, now. He was my Philosophy 101 professor. I'm not sure philosophy is a required gen. ed. class in a lot of schools. Maybe it is. I don't know, but Professor K told me that the main point of a Philosophy 101 class is supposed to be teaching the students critical thinking. It's okay to learn about Plato, and Socrates (Yes, I pronounce that as "sew crates", when I'm typing along), but the idea is to, eventually develop a "philosophy" of their own.

I'm sure some of it is a hold-over from their high school days, where they're not really afforded that freedom (and I think that's an issue, too). I know I wasn't really afforded that freedom except a very few select classes.

Obviously, the freedom I feel now, isn't because I'm special. It's because I've had a few days of life experience and I have developed that "philosophy", compared to my piers who are fresh out of a place where expressing a different thought is frowned upon (this might deserve a thread of its own because I believe it's part of the problem with public high school, but I understand why it happens) and they're (probably) a bit over-whelmed, when they first enter college.

I promise to sum up, here, soon

Not just a personal philosophy, but these "children" (I know they're adults, but ...) are not likely to be in a hurry to "tell truth to power" so, there's another reason why they'll sit in a class room, take in the "facts" and just regurgitate them on the next paper/exam (while bitching about their professors over a few beers with their friends).

I think the disconnect might be that high school and college used to be two very different approaches to teaching. I believe college has become a bit too much like high school in a lot of cases and therein lies the rub.



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/28/2017 11:51:45 PM >

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 12:13:08 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's a flawed comparison, vincent.

There's a world of difference between "I'm a priest and so my beliefs are the one true way" kind of thing you're claiming and the years of training and experience that makes one a policy expert in, say, foreign affairs, particularly with a focus and long knowledge of a region, its history, and its current movements.

To dismiss the priest, fair enough. To dismiss the policy expert is just foolish. That doesn't mean one must agree, but certainly one would be wise to seriously consider his take on things, and if one disagrees, that one brings other compelling evidence and or experts to the table, not just "I want it to be otherwise."


Actually I think to an extent, you are both right. It's that just because say a Kissinger or a Brzezinski, didn't fit the mold when they came to Wash, doesn't mean they started to spew out what their bosses didn't want to hear. They caught on quick and toed the company line. Their policy 'expertise' still had certain boundaries and they couldn't deviate or...they would have been fired.

For example:

Christine Todd Whitman at EPA and Paul H. O'Neill at Treasury come to mind. Whitman a former governor and O'Neill from the corp. world. Both disagreed with Bush II policy and didn't last long. Their policy 'expertise' was not unneeded...just unwanted.

One very good man and survivor who didn't come from the sociology or liberal arts college factory or fit the mold and did disagree with his boss...Bush I and still kept his job, was Jack Kemp. Testimony before the mortgage bankers:

Billions of dollars in HUD funds were diverted from housing programs through mismanagement and fraud during the Reagan administration. Since taking office nine months ago, Kemp has instituted new management and accounting programs, and proposed redirecting the agency toward helping first-time home buyers and those at the lower end of the economic spectrum.

His proposals include eliminating Federal Housing Administration insurance for investor loans and for second-home purchases.

Kemp said he has received advice from ''both the right and left'' to abolish HUD.

''I don't share that,'' he said. ''I take a back seat to no one in my belief in capitalism and free markets, but there is a role for HUD'' in combating poverty and making affordable housing available.

The FHA, a division of HUD that encourages mortgage lending by providing mortgage insurance, has played ''a significant role'' in the American dream of homeownership, Kemp said.

More than 9 million people in this country live in FHA-insured homes, he said, and 500,000 first-time buyers a year purchase homes with the FHA's help.

But FHA has been in need of reform, Kemp said. The agency's programs must be targeted to first-time buyers and people with low or moderate incomes, he told the mortgage bankers. He added that he plans to emphasize public-private ventures to tackle housing problems across the country.

''We want to use every single tool at our disposal'' in making affordable housing available and helping the poor, he said.

That will include allowing first-time buyers to use money from individual retirement accounts for down payments and using the tax code to encourage investment in low-income housing.

Bush I hired him and did not fire him. Was at HUD from 89-93. His 'expertise' was OJT.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 1/29/2017 12:33:43 AM >

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 5:57:09 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Christine Todd Whitman at EPA and Paul H. O'Neill at Treasury come to mind. Whitman a former governor and O'Neill from the corp. world. Both disagreed with Bush II policy and didn't last long. Their policy 'expertise' was not unneeded...just unwanted.

Good examples, indeed. Others would be Chester Bowles, who objected to the planned bombing of North Vietnam, and when McNamara turned against the war he was "promoted" on short notice to be president of the World Bank.

But, don't lose sight of the thrust of Tom Nichols' complaints: he laments conversations between "experts" and "commons."

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 6:03:01 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, don't lose sight of the thrust of Tom Nichols' complaints: he laments conversations between "experts" and "commons."

Not really, no: he appears to resent the two being treated as equivalent by elements of the media, which isn't the same thing at all.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 6:10:13 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Not just a personal philosophy, but these "children" (I know they're adults, but ...) are not likely to be in a hurry to "tell truth to power" so, there's another reason why they'll sit in a class room, take in the "facts" and just regurgitate them on the next paper/exam (while bitching about their professors over a few beers with their friends).


Seems, that you may be making broad, sweeping generalizations from your own recent classroom experience, Michael. I would guess there are plenty of social science professors who encourage open dialogue with their students.

quote:

I think the disconnect might be that high school and college used to be two very different approaches to teaching. I believe college has become a bit too much like high school in a lot of cases and therein lies the rub.

High school and community college may have similar approaches to teaching but I don't see where you can make and defend that remark respecting University.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 9:08:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, don't lose sight of the thrust of Tom Nichols' complaints: he laments conversations between "experts" and "commons."

Not really, no: he appears to resent the two being treated as equivalent by elements of the media, which isn't the same thing at all.


I believe you are mistaken. Here is a clear statement about his dismay that common folk in passionate debate often will not yield to experts:

Critics might dismiss all this by saying that everyone has a right to participate in the public sphere. That’s true. But every discussion must take place within limits and above a certain baseline of competence. And competence is sorely lacking in the public arena. People with strong views on going to war in other countries can barely find their own nation on a map; people who want to punish Congress for this or that law can’t name their own member of the House.

I did not see anything in the document that supports your position that Nichols was indicting the Press. Maybe you can show me.




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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 10:45:59 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		The "public sphere" he's talking about there is the media, surely? The one self appointed expert who knows fuck all about her chosen subject he names in the piece is Jenny McCarthy, who was a media figure rather than a child psychologist the last time I checked, and he certainly seems to be talking about blogs, while bemoaning the loosening of editorial standards.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/29/2017 11:41:18 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

The "public sphere" he's talking about there is the media, surely? The one self appointed expert who knows fuck all about her chosen subject he names in the piece is Jenny McCarthy, who was a media figure rather than a child psychologist the last time I checked, and he certainly seems to be talking about blogs, while bemoaning the loosening of editorial standards.

Yes, but blogs are part of the internet, which I acknowledged was the source of his peeve. Interesting how the blogosphere has become conflated with the media. I presume the latter to be traditional radio, TV, newspapers, and magazines, all having editors and/monitors of one sort or another.

So, yes, I see your point, he has a beef with the unfettered media.

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/30/2017 12:49:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

FR

There you go, have your "adult" conversation with WhoreMods, that's perfect.




HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

T^T

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/30/2017 12:57:04 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think he skipped the "filled with billionaires with no experience" part.


People with experience got us here. That is one of the reasons Trump won.

And liberals think "here" is good.

T^T

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/30/2017 1:10:54 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/30/2017 9:19:44 AM   
truckinslave


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Status: offline 		You posted the start of a pretty good argument for testing people about our form of government, our history, the events of the day, etc etc before being allowed to register to vote.
As long as my experts get to write the questions.....

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RE: The Death of Expertise - 1/30/2017 9:24:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		not gonna happen, unconstitutional. onto the next wry bit of buffoonery.

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