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RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 7:05:03 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ohh, that standing army shit is gonna knock any nutsucker off his pegs from the get go. Right behind that the notion that the constitution was a forever blueprint. That fucker wore out 20 years after the ink was dry.


Wasn't it no less than t.j. who called for a bloody violent revolution on a cyclicic bassis?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 7:20:23 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: vincentML


The 13th A changed the Constitution, freeing the slaves.

Not exactly.The 13th freed the slaves in the north. The e.o. (emancipation proclamation) freed the slaves in the states in rebellion (where the union had no power to enforce). When the union forces gained control of the states in rebellion the e.o. was (theroretically) enforced




So, that was done in a way prescribed by the instrument itself.


Would it be inappropriate to say that it validated the e.o.?


DS seems concerned about changing the meaning of the Constitution by stare dices. I think our contention has been whether the original intended meanings should be changed by Court Opinion. I offered the compromise that Opinion may find "un-numerated" or implicit but unstated rights.


Others might contend that the courts have actually enforced the intent of the constitution and dismissed the wink&nod application of it. The "sacred texts" speaks to "all" (men)being equal with the specific end date for importing non equal (men).

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 9:55:20 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, it is an historic practice. By what imaginable process could it be changed?


Via Amendment.


The Constitution does not provide for Judicial Review. That was established by precedent in Marbury v. Madison.

The Court is established as a separate branch of the Federal Government by Article III.

Any Amendment that infringed upon Article III would surely create a crisis. Your Amendment would have to have some enforcement mechanism. The Courts might continue appellate review refusing to accept your Amendment and the ratifying states might refuse to recognize the Opinions and dicta of the Courts.

A fine mess you got us into, McGee. (old radio show)




_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 10:16:01 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: vincentML


The 13th A changed the Constitution, freeing the slaves.

Not exactly.The 13th freed the slaves in the north. The e.o. (emancipation proclamation) freed the slaves in the states in rebellion (where the union had no power to enforce). When the union forces gained control of the states in rebellion the e.o. was (theroretically) enforced




So, that was done in a way prescribed by the instrument itself.


Would it be inappropriate to say that it validated the e.o.?


DS seems concerned about changing the meaning of the Constitution by stare dices. I think our contention has been whether the original intended meanings should be changed by Court Opinion. I offered the compromise that Opinion may find "un-numerated" or implicit but unstated rights.


Others might contend that the courts have actually enforced the intent of the constitution and dismissed the wink&nod application of it. The "sacred texts" speaks to "all" (men)being equal with the specific end date for importing non equal (men).

Just speculating here, Tommy . . . I am thinking that the EP would have expired circa 1877 when agreement was reached to end the military occupation, or with the re-entry of each rebellious state to the Union. The 13th Amendment remained in its place.

Broadly, the intent of the Founders has survived, imo. Only because the Amendment Process and stare dices has allowed for the instrument to bend but not break as society evolved.

That is why I disagree with the "originalists" rigid position.



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 1:34:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
AND if you finally stumble across the point I was making that you dismissed as bullshit.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Well, if you were correct about social framework, slavery would still be legal.
It can and does change, and even has a mechanism built in to accomplish that.


I didn't stumble upon anything. Amendment being the ONLY way to change the Constitution is what I've been saying all along. Changing the Constitution by changing the way it's viewed - through a change in the social framework - isn't a valid way to change the Constitution.

I dismissed as bullshit, the idea that slavery would still be legal. Considering the rest of that response to your post was all about slavery, I'm surprised you missed that.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 1:42:09 PM   
Musicmystery


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Whatever. Tell yourself whatever you need to feel good.

I'm tired of arguing pointless crap.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 1:51:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, it is an historic practice. By what imaginable process could it be changed?

Via Amendment.

The Constitution does not provide for Judicial Review. That was established by precedent in Marbury v. Madison.
The Court is established as a separate branch of the Federal Government by Article III.
Any Amendment that infringed upon Article III would surely create a crisis. Your Amendment would have to have some enforcement mechanism. The Courts might continue appellate review refusing to accept your Amendment and the ratifying states might refuse to recognize the Opinions and dicta of the Courts.
A fine mess you got us into, McGee. (old radio show)


Unless there was some way to know what the Framers intended. Too bad there was nothing written about what the Framers intended. Oh. Wait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States#Statements_by_the_framers_of_the_Constitution_regarding_judicial_review


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 1:55:47 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Whatever. Tell yourself whatever you need to feel good.
I'm tired of arguing pointless crap.


Don't leave just because you're butthurt.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 2:32:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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More like bored.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 3:06:23 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
More like bored.


    "Whatever. Tell yourself whatever you need to feel good. "



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 3:17:20 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, it is an historic practice. By what imaginable process could it be changed?

Via Amendment.

The Constitution does not provide for Judicial Review. That was established by precedent in Marbury v. Madison.
The Court is established as a separate branch of the Federal Government by Article III.
Any Amendment that infringed upon Article III would surely create a crisis. Your Amendment would have to have some enforcement mechanism. The Courts might continue appellate review refusing to accept your Amendment and the ratifying states might refuse to recognize the Opinions and dicta of the Courts.
A fine mess you got us into, McGee. (old radio show)


Unless there was some way to know what the Framers intended. Too bad there was nothing written about what the Framers intended. Oh. Wait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States#Statements_by_the_framers_of_the_Constitution_regarding_judicial_review


Yeah, I read that and found it interesting. But, in order to declare legislation unconstitutional, judges need to opine on the meaning of the words in the Constitution.

You have dodged my question. How could an Amendment be enforced mandating the Justices to agree on the meaning of a Clause? The Judiciary is a separate and independent and equal branch of government. If you could write a "reasonable" Amendment directing the Justices how to interpret the Constitution there would be no practical way to enforce it. A crisis would ensue.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 3:27:29 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, it is an historic practice. By what imaginable process could it be changed?

Via Amendment.

The Constitution does not provide for Judicial Review. That was established by precedent in Marbury v. Madison.
The Court is established as a separate branch of the Federal Government by Article III.
Any Amendment that infringed upon Article III would surely create a crisis. Your Amendment would have to have some enforcement mechanism. The Courts might continue appellate review refusing to accept your Amendment and the ratifying states might refuse to recognize the Opinions and dicta of the Courts.
A fine mess you got us into, McGee. (old radio show)

Unless there was some way to know what the Framers intended. Too bad there was nothing written about what the Framers intended. Oh. Wait.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States#Statements_by_the_framers_of_the_Constitution_regarding_judicial_review

Yeah, I read that and found it interesting. But, in order to declare legislation unconstitutional, judges need to opine on the meaning of the words in the Constitution.
You have dodged my question. How could an Amendment be enforced mandating the Justices to agree on the meaning of a Clause? The Judiciary is a separate and independent and equal branch of government. If you could write a "reasonable" Amendment directing the Justices how to interpret the Constitution there would be no practical way to enforce it. A crisis would ensue.


As opposed to the crisis of government sprawl?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 3:43:07 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Dear God. He's gone Bosco.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 7:09:31 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: vincentML


Just speculating here, Tommy . . . I am thinking that the EP would have expired circa 1877 when agreement was reached to end the military occupation, or with the re-entry of each rebellious state to the Union. The 13th Amendment remained in its place.

The eo was replaced by the 13th. Without the 13th the e.o. would remain in place regardles of the end of reconstruction or any given time frame.



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 7:53:03 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: vincentML


Just speculating here, Tommy . . . I am thinking that the EP would have expired circa 1877 when agreement was reached to end the military occupation, or with the re-entry of each rebellious state to the Union. The 13th Amendment remained in its place.

The eo was replaced by the 13th. Without the 13th the e.o. would remain in place regardles of the end of reconstruction or any given time frame.




It was a War measure. It did not have the weight of legislation. There was some trepidation that the EO would lose its authority once hostilities ended and the Union troops were withdrawn. That fear motivated Lincoln to push for the Thirteenth in the lame duck Congress at the close of 1864.



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 8:16:17 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, it is an historic practice. By what imaginable process could it be changed?

Via Amendment.

The Constitution does not provide for Judicial Review. That was established by precedent in Marbury v. Madison.
The Court is established as a separate branch of the Federal Government by Article III.
Any Amendment that infringed upon Article III would surely create a crisis. Your Amendment would have to have some enforcement mechanism. The Courts might continue appellate review refusing to accept your Amendment and the ratifying states might refuse to recognize the Opinions and dicta of the Courts.
A fine mess you got us into, McGee. (old radio show)

Unless there was some way to know what the Framers intended. Too bad there was nothing written about what the Framers intended. Oh. Wait.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States#Statements_by_the_framers_of_the_Constitution_regarding_judicial_review

Yeah, I read that and found it interesting. But, in order to declare legislation unconstitutional, judges need to opine on the meaning of the words in the Constitution.
You have dodged my question. How could an Amendment be enforced mandating the Justices to agree on the meaning of a Clause? The Judiciary is a separate and independent and equal branch of government. If you could write a "reasonable" Amendment directing the Justices how to interpret the Constitution there would be no practical way to enforce it. A crisis would ensue.


As opposed to the crisis of government sprawl?


**sighsss**

The census population in 1800 was reported as about 3.5 million people.

This year we have probably exceeded 330 million people.

Population sprawl puts pressure on government to expand.

I can't imagine how the available governance of 1780 held static could provide adequate services for today's population. I refer not only to the physical apparatus of governance but to the political philosophy as well. The brilliance of the Constitution is that it survived such enormous and radical population and technological change with only ONE tragically disruptive civil war, and without calling for new Constitutional Conventions.

The Founders have much to be proud of.

Originalism might be successfully pursued by this or that individual Justice but believing that the NINE could be mandated to adopt the philosophy is daft.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 8:19:36 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Unless there was some way to know what the Framers intended. Too bad there was nothing written about what the Framers intended. Oh. Wait.


You have reminded us that you are a strict constructionist. That the declaration of independence and the preamble to the constitution have no force in law.
There is no place in the constitution that specifically gives the scotus authority to declare a law unconstitutional yet you claim it does but it is not in the constitution. The article posted says it was discussed but still was not put in the constitution...why was that? If it is not in the constitution then how do you get there from your premis?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review_in_the_United_States#Statements_by_the_framers_of_the_Constitution_regarding_judicial_review


From your cite:

Chief Justice John Marshall maintained that the Supreme Court's responsibility to overturn unconstitutional legislation was a necessary consequence of their sworn oath of office to uphold the Constitution as instructed in Article Six of the Constitution.

The man who instituted the concept of judicial review says your reasoning is incorrect and that you are as usual full of shit.

From your cite:


The concept of judicial review therefore was familiar to the framers and to the public before the Constitutional Convention.


Clearly well known but still not put into the constitution.
Why????Could it be that they did not want it there?

From your cite:


The text of the Constitution does not contain a specific reference to the power of judicial review. Rather, the power to declare laws unconstitutional has been deemed an implied power, derived from Article III and Article VI.[11]

You have claimed on numerous occasions That there are no implied powers and that only the "easy to read words" of the constitution are the law and nothing else.
Once again your own cite is pointing out that as usual you are full of shit.

You seem to be claiming that the "judicial act of 1789 gave the scotus the authority of judicial but your cite says:


The constitutional issue involved the question of whether the Supreme Court had jurisdiction to hear the case.[44] The Judiciary Act of 1789 gave the Supreme Court original jurisdiction in cases involving writs of mandamus. So, under the Judiciary Act, the Supreme Court would have had jurisdiction to hear Marbury's case. However, the Constitution describes the cases in which the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction, and does not include mandamus cases.[45] The Judiciary Act therefore attempted to give the Supreme Court jurisdiction that was not "warranted by the Constitution."[46]

Marshall's opinion stated that in the Constitution, the people established a government of limited powers: "The powers of the Legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the Constitution is written." The limits established in the Constitution would be meaningless "if these limits may at any time be passed by those intended to be restrained." Marshall observed that the Constitution is "the fundamental and paramount law of the nation", and that it cannot be altered by an ordinary act of the legislature. Therefore, "an act of the Legislature repugnant to the Constitution is void."[47]

Clearly marshal is saying that the implied powers oif the constitution and not the judiciary act of 1789 is the source of judicial review.
Implied powers which you claim do not exist.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 8:19:42 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Dear God. He's gone Bosco.

Surprising, innit??

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 8:30:37 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: vincentML


[It was a War measure. It did not have the weight of legislation. There was some trepidation that the EO would lose its authority once hostilities ended and the Union troops were withdrawn. That fear motivated Lincoln to push for the Thirteenth in the lame duck Congress at the close of 1864.


The traitors had been defeated and their lands occupied by the victors...no chance the traitors could have avoided the eo.
The e.o. simply emancipated the slaves in the states in rebellion. The eo did not address the slavery in the states not in rebellion nor did it address citizenship and voting...these defeciencies in the e.o. were corrected by the 13,14,and 15 ammendments.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The Immigration Ban - 2/20/2017 8:32:28 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
dp

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/20/2017 8:34:08 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 140
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