RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 6:48:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

My submissive side was something always kept hidden, and when finally allowed out I never considered it a 'Gift' to the man that got it. He'd always considered himself submissive, but not really allowed his dominant/sadistic side loose with anyone except me, and I doubt he thought as that being a 'gift' to me either. I certainly didn't consider it a gift, it just felt really good on both our parts that finally we'd both met someone that we were comfortable with to explore safely with.

Ok, so it's not a side of me that every guy is going to get, but then that doesn't make it a gift as though it's something so precious to be kept in a sacred box. Everything about me is given in increments depending on the individual.

Needles

gift implies no strings attached. That is the usual objection to the term.

But how disingenuous is someone who implies they are making some sort of sacrifice-when it's really a trade?

It is disingenuous forced by the fantasy script that hovers over our relationships until the negotiations are completed. It is the presumptive script that often confronts us at the start of a desired relationship.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 8:39:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

My submission is more of a burden than a gift.


Ditto.

As long as you keep in mind that it's a burden that some people enjoy taking on.

House breaking and training a young puppy is also a burden, yet some people really enjoy keeping dogs.
Restoring and making a fixer upper habitable is also a burden, yet some people really enjoy putting in sweat equity in their home.
Planting and maintaining a garden is also a burden, yet some people really enjoy gardening.

Etc, etc, etc.

For people who don't enjoy training dogs/fixing houses/gardening, those burdens aren't joyful, they're work.
Likewise, for people who don't enjoy dealing with the needs of a submissive, that burden is just plainly overbearing neediness, and work.

The hallmark of a physically, socially, and psychologically healthy adult is that they enjoy burdening themselves with -sometimes unnecessary- work... they like to 'keep busy'. In fact, if you meet somebody and they don't like they 'keep busy' that's a clear sign that there's something wrong with them (physically, socially, or psychologically).

So dealing with the fact that your submission is a burden is as easy as finding a healthy adult who happens to enjoy the burden of dealing with it.




Greta75 -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 8:47:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
It's about compatibility, otherwise you are having an urge that doesn't get scratched and it doesn't matter how much or often you call it a gift, if there are no takers, you're left there with your gift (which is an unscratched urge), BDSM requires 2 willing participants (maybe more if you're into it) but the motivations are usually something that drives you to it because you get something out, otherwise you'd join the peace corps or work for a charity.

Seriously, if it would be such a gift and so selfless, then why aren't all the submissives in a religious order? Also about submission, sacrifice, etc.

I think you guys don't get what a gift is.
Take Christmas Gifts for example. When you buy a gift for your friends, family during Christmas. Just because you gave them your gift, does not guarantee that "gift" will be treasured. It might be cast aside or even re-gifted.

Same thing!

Submission is a gift. But it doesn't mean the person you gift it to will treasure your submission. You simply try to find one who will.

And I really never saw a "gift" as unconditional. Many people give "gifts" with conditions. I mean even real presents.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 8:53:52 AM)

~FR~

It's unhealthy to consider submission a gift, because it encourages victim mentalities.

A gift is something you cannot take back once given, as it now fully belongs to the person whom you've given it to.

This encourages the submissive to view themselves as lacking agency, with their 'gift' now fully belonging to the Dominant, and them being in a passive role of waiting whether or not the Dominant will treasure or mistreat their gift, with them having no control, nor a way out when things go wrong.

It's much healthier to see it for the exchange it is, because seeing it as an exchange puts the onus on the submissive to continuously be responsible for analyzing and considering whether the exchange is a beneficial one, and whether they're getting what they want/need out of it, as well as the responsibility to help guide the exchange to one which is mutually beneficial.

Calling it a gift makes them a passive subject, which is an unhealthy way for an adult to view themselves.
Calling it an exchange makes them an active and responsible participant, which the healthy way for an adult to view themselves.

The difference may seem subtle, but it's really not, and whether or not a person sees themselves as the subject of their lives, or the actor of their lives has far going psychological impacts on their overall mental state, their social adaptability, and their overall health.

For example, it's been shown that it's much easier to get over, and process trauma, in a healthy productive way, when the subject sees themselves as an actor, rather than a subject.

Seeing yourself as a subject of your own life is unhealthy, on all fronts, and seeing that considering submission a gift turns people into subject, it's unhealthy to see it as such.

For me it's a big red flag. To the point that I steer clear of even casually befriending people who claim they see submission as a gift, because I've found that they're exactly the type of people with whom there always seems to be problems... and when you try to help, or talk to them, or give advice, it turns out that it's somehow, by magic, never their fault.

I don't enjoy people with subject mentalities, so I stay clear from them.



Greta75 -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 9:18:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
A gift is something you cannot take back once given, as it now fully belongs to the person whom you've given it to.

This encourages the submissive to view themselves as lacking agency, with their 'gift' now fully belonging to the Dominant, and them being in a passive role of waiting whether or not the Dominant will treasure or mistreat their gift, with them having no control, nor a way out when things go wrong.


There are plenty of people who demand their gifts back in this world. Have you never seen bitter divorces? I never view it as "victim mentality".

For example, if I was a parent, and I gift my child an Xbox, and if that child was abusing the Xbox. I am soooo taking it back!

If a Dominant abuse my gift of submission. I am sooo taking it back!



UllrsIshtar -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 12:22:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
A gift is something you cannot take back once given, as it now fully belongs to the person whom you've given it to.

This encourages the submissive to view themselves as lacking agency, with their 'gift' now fully belonging to the Dominant, and them being in a passive role of waiting whether or not the Dominant will treasure or mistreat their gift, with them having no control, nor a way out when things go wrong.


There are plenty of people who demand their gifts back in this world. Have you never seen bitter divorces? I never view it as "victim mentality".

For example, if I was a parent, and I gift my child an Xbox, and if that child was abusing the Xbox. I am soooo taking it back!

If a Dominant abuse my gift of submission. I am sooo taking it back!


Actually, if you were a parent, you wouldn't be taking back your 'gift', what you'd be taking is one of your child's belongings as a punitive act.
You know, the way the state can take your money as a penalty for speeding.

You'd be enforcing a punishment, which is within your authority to enforce, not 'ungifting' your gift.
It becomes very clear that you're not merely 'ungifting' your gift, when you consider that a parent can't just confiscate stuff they gave the kid, they can confiscate ANYTHING anybody gave to the kid, I.E. they have the authority to confiscate all of the kid's belongings, whether they gave it to the child or not.

If you were an aunt or another friend or relative, you wouldn't have the possibility of taking back your gift, as you wouldn't have the authority to do so. That authority lays strictly with the parents.
As such, a parent doesn't 'ungift' gifts, they merely confiscate a child's belongings as punishment for misbehavior. The emphasis being on the fact that prior to the confiscation, the item fully belongs to the child.

So if you want to claim that in a D/s relationship you are in a position off authority over the Dominant and have the ability to 'punish' them when they do not behave according to your wishes by taking away their stuff (your gift) as a penalty for misbehavior, then yeah... sure...

But it's making the whole 'gift' analogy sound rather ludicrous, now doesn't it? Because literally the ONLY relationship in which you can take back gifts as a punishment is that of a parent to a child (the child cannot even take back gifts given to parents as a punishment to the parent), so you're now making a D/s relationship analogous of that of a parent to a child, in which the submissive is the parent, and the Dominant is the child.

To me, that seems like a lot of unnecessary mental gymnastics to desperately avoid describing it as the exchange it is.


As far as bitter divorces go, you are incorrect in your analogy there. There is no legal precedent, that I'm aware off, in which people are obligated to return gifts in case of a divorce. They often do so, out of their own free will, but if they refuse to do so, a giving party cannot legally force the return of gifts freely given, just because they want to to be so.
Often there's a negotiated return of gifts, but again, this is done out of the receiving party's free will, and if they want to, they could retain the gift.
Thus, in order for that analogy to work in case of D/s, a Dominant ought to have the option of refusing to return the 'gift' of submission, which is obviously not the case.
If the submissive refuses to submit, there is no longer a D/s structure. The Dominant's consent is not relevant in this.

The fact of the matter is that submission simple isn't something you can 'gift' to another person, because it's something that resides within you, which is provoked in response to your interaction with another person.

You couldn't 'gift' your submission to just any random person. They have to provoke it in your first, and then you have to chose to act on that provocation by behaving in a modified way from your normal responses to random other people.

Without their Dominance, you couldn't be submissive to a person, no matter how much you wanted to, or how much you tried... because submission isn't something you possess (something you own, which you can therefore give away) it's something you do and feel, in response to something else that somebody else does and feel.






longwayhome -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 12:46:45 PM)

I think we all get a bit over hung up on the whole "submission is a gift" subject.

I may well thank my deity for the "gift" of many good things is my life, but that is a very specific meaning of the word. A "gift" is merely something that is given. We tend to give the word all kinds of other meanings, some of them positive and some of them negative.

Acting as if what you "give" is something over-precious that needs to be treated with exaggerated respect can ruin the dynamic of any relationship.

Giving of yourself in a relationship is surely a good thing, as is taking care and having some self-respect when you enter into a relationship or even a play situation. However some people take that to extremes and expect specific and explicit gratitude and thankfulness.

To feel thankful in a general sense when you are in a good relationship or situation is healthy - demanding that someone expresses that frequently and explicitly isn't good however either in BDSM or a vanilla setting. In that context presenting your submission as a "gift" and demanding thanks and appreciation for it is essentially demanding, manipulative and counter-productive.

Everyone wants to be appreciated and have their needs recognised, whatever role they play. The problem is less with the "gift"; after all you may not choose to "give" your submission to just anyone. The problem comes when you expect something as the result of that "gift", which from my point of view means it ceases to be a gift and becomes a burden.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/11/2017 1:25:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


The problem comes when you expect something as the result of that "gift", which from my point of view means it ceases to be a gift and becomes a burden.


There are no relationship structures, in which human adults closely interact with other human adults out of their own free will, without expecting something in return.

It doesn't matter whether you're talking about employment, family, friendship, or romantic relationships. People expect something in return for what they feel they put into the relationship. Period. At all times.

When we don't get what we expect in return for what we feel we're putting in, we get upset, and if we consistently don't get the 'return on investment' we're seeking to gain out of the relationship -and if we're sensible- we stop associating with that person.

What a submissive expects in return for their submission is Dominance. Plain and simple.
The only difference between one submissive and the next one is exactly how they define the concept of 'Dominance' that they expect in return.

But regardless of how they define the 'Dominance' they want in return, they all consistently are not/stop being submissive to anybody who doesn't deliver on their expectations.



longwayhome -> RE: It's nice to see the balance in BDSM returning Submission is a gift (4/18/2017 4:42:01 PM)

I don't think that what you said is incorrect. A rational transactional perspective on relationships is a perfectly valid view to take. If there is no form of reciprocation any relationship will of course in time falter.

What I said however comes from a slightly different starting point.

Giving without demanding something in return is a large part of what a loving relationship or even a real friendship is for me. That doesn't mean you get nothing in return.

However giving without getting something in return can of course ultimately be soul destroying. And allowing someone to give constantly without any kind of reciprocation is potentially abusive, even in a D/s context.

I know it sounds a bit like a paradox but a gift should be given with no thought of what you might get. That doesn't mean that getting nothing is okay but attaching a huge weight of expectation to it causes problems.



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