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Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 3:26:05 AM   
darkinshadows


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This sparked a thought in me after reading the post Nature or Nurture.
Kind of similar in thought - with a twist - and I didnt want to hijack the thread.
 
Whatever you are, you are - no question there.  But what happens when you come across a person who brings out the opposite reaction to you?  When you have always been submissive, but you meet a person who is submissive to you and you enjoy it?  Or a dominant who meets a person who is more dominant than them, and they submit to that and enjoy it?
If it is nature over nurture, and you always believed that... where does that leave you standing? 
 
How can something that is supposedly 'natural' suddenly switched around?
 
Did this make you have to conform to being a 'switch' - even though you are inherently submissive or dominant?
 
Is it that the opposite to what you thought you was, has been nurtured - or manipulated?
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 3:57:40 AM   
popsub


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I think that it is always interesting to examine cause and effect in a situation like this.

The nature vs. nurture argument that has been discussed in many places already sometimes misses which is which.

For example, in your post you ask what happens when a dominant meets someone more dominant than themselves and they enjoy submitting to them.

Perhaps they do not submit because the other person is more dominant, but the other person acts more dominant because of the submission already present in the other dominants character. Perhaps it's just like water, which will always find it's level and equilibrium.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 4:09:48 AM   
submaleslaveuk


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Even more interesting topic this one!! Again i have spoken to a Dominant Female who has only submitted to ONE person her whole life, which just so happens to also be her husband. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer to this one.

I personally believe that we react to different people and personalities, i dont really have a Dominant bone in my body but have met someone who i just wanted to spank over my lap!! Hasnt happened since and to be honest i definitely dont consider myself a switch in any way either, just that one woman at that one time!!

Sorry i havent added to the topic but just confused things but i do believe that everyone will feel very different on this and the nature vs nurture questions!!

Take care all!

submaleslaveuk
darren

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 4:11:52 AM   
Quivver


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Personally I think most interactions with others have the element of one in control, one who submits.  It happens daily... the ~key~ word is enjoy.  I cant say I've found another submissive who is submissive to me unless it's their job (server in a resturant, an unmentionable following direction or something)
that I enjoy their submission.  For me, that enjoy part would be a switch side comming out. 

Q

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 5:16:55 AM   
Padriag


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Well I never believed it was nature over nurture, and have said as much.  Regardless I think its something else at work.

First, let's try to think a little more broadly than black and white.  That is, rather than assuming everyone is either absolutely dominant or submissive, what if we consider that there may be differing degrees of each.  And presumably there must be, or else how do we explain switches?

It was this very line of thinking that caused me to come up with what I call, for lack of a better term, my "Dominance theory."  I really need to write this up in an essay but briefly it goes like this.

Everyone possesses a degree of dominance.  We might rate this on a scale of 1 to 10 or some similar handy representative scale.  At the low end, a rating of one would indicate very little dominance, and thus a very meek and servile personality, while at the other a 10 would indicate an extremely dominant personality.  Few people would rate either a 1 or a 10, both are rare.  Thus most submissives would be a 2, 3 or a 4.  Most dominants would be a 7, 8, or 9.  Switches, would then be a 5 or 6.

Now here's what those numbers mean in practical terms.  People submit to others who are more dominant than they are themselves.  Thus a 2, 3 or 4 submits to a 7, 8 or 9 because the later are more strongly dominant.  A 5 or 6 switches because they're in that middle area where they are more strongly dominant than some, but weaker than others.

We could argue why someone submits to someone more strongly dominant, but the point here is, they do.  What's more interesting, is that according to my theory, a strong submissive (a 4) or a switch (5 or 6) will only likely only submit to a strong dominant (9 or 10) because there needs to be a large enough degree of difference to trigger submissive behavior.  That is, the dominant must be strongly enough dominant to overpower the level of dominance in another, triggering submissive behavior.  This is why a switch can submit to some and dominate others, because there are some strong enough to overwhelm their own dominant traits, while still being able to do so to some others.

Or so the theory goes, I'm still working it out.   For example, I'm still trying to account for why women seem more frequently to switch than men?  And what about emotional connections, why is it sometimes a dominant individual becomes submissive towards another when in the context of a relationship?  It also doesn't effectively account for personal perceptions.  That is suppose someone perceives someone else to be very dominant because of some trait of that person (someone who is very intelligent for example) when in fact that person may actually only possess a moderate degree of dominance, yet is treated as though they possessed a high degree.  I don't have all the answers as yet, but I'm working on it.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 5:36:23 AM   
mistoferin


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I'll come back and answer this if I should ever have the experience of enjoying someone submitting to me....as of now it has not yet occurred. Yes....people have been submissive to me....no I have not enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that it generally makes me very uncomfortable.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 5:40:51 AM   
submaleslaveuk


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Great post Padriag and to be honest it pretty much makes sense all the way through!!

Thanks for a very informative and thoughtful response and thanks for making me think like this, Now i have a little game to play when next at the train station! Try and match the people with a number on the domination scale lol :)

Could be fun!!

Take care

submaleslaveuk
darren

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 9:20:43 AM   
LaTigresse


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That really makes sense to me. I used to be confused at the occasional submissive fantasy when in reality I have yet to meet an individual that I could submit to. Therefor, it would take one really impressive dominant for me to accept as anything more than an equal...or sometimes less so
This also puts a better light on why I find many submissives just.....too much so, not stimulating enough and maybe if I had a fat head why alot of really strong and switchy type women have been attracted to me also. I am just a really bossy broad.

Very cool bit of writing Padriag, thank you!


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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 9:49:07 AM   
ClassAct2006


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Must depend on the person. I even feel submissive to submissive women not that I'd ever admit it.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 10:45:24 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
How can something that is supposedly 'natural' suddenly switched around?
 
Did this make you have to conform to being a 'switch' - even though you are inherently submissive or dominant?
 
Is it that the opposite to what you thought you was, has been nurtured - or manipulated?
 
Peace and Rapture


It tends to throw people for a huge loop that's for sure.  For people who have never experienced this situation, they tend to be unable to really get the experience- or worse, think the people involved are less committed than they are.

The reality is, we all go through big Life Change Moments at some point that throw us for a loop.  The particular nature of the change can vary greatly.

This is one of the reasons that I often tell people to just let energy flow.  This doesn't make a person a switch necessarily, just that they are having to discover a new part of themselves.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 10:47:22 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Thus most submissives would be a 2, 3 or a 4.  Most dominants would be a 7, 8, or 9.  Switches, would then be a 5 or 6.

Are you talking dominant in personality or dominant in orientation?

Why would switches be a 5 or 6 then?  I'm not seeing the logic.  Switches aren't "in the middle"- they are BOTH. 

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 10:59:42 AM   
crouchingtigress


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i have never met anyone in this lifestyle for an extended period of time that did not switch.
 
as to the nurtured or manipulated i think its neither or both...i think we all have people we are in awe of, and in the presence of that being we become submissive, ie, wanting to please them, wanting their approval, wanting to serve them, being reverent to them.
 
i think we have all met people that we feel superior to as well, and we have no issue making them bag our groceries, clean our car ect...
 
for example some folks would turn into quivering jello if they met a famous star, others like Oprah have a comfort and an ease about that, but even Oprah turned into jelly when she met some one she idolized Sidney Poitier. For me, i meet stars all the time in my line of work, it does nothing for me, but when put in front  of Wane Dyer and Ram Das i turned into a puddle of incoherant goo.


now when it comes to sex i really dont think it is all that different. i think that we react in a primal level to our sexual attractions and i would hope that a Domme or dom would come on this thread and prove me wrong and say that they have never felt a feeling of inferiority (maybe too strong a word but something akin to it) in the presence of a person of the opposite sex they wanted to fuck...
 
that would be interesting...
 
i hope that made sense dark, if not feel free to ask me more...

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 7/25/2006 11:07:22 AM >


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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/25/2006 11:10:23 AM   
crouchingtigress


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i dont agree....as LA says, switches are both...but i know it is nearly impossible for folks to get that so i wont beat a dead horse.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 1:06:09 AM   
Padriag


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Which is part of why I placed them in the middle, because they are both.  That is they possess characteristics of each.  As for the logic, its simple.  If you have three groups, one group possesses one set of traits (Group A), a second group possess another set of traits (Group C), and the third group possess traits of both the group A and C, the logical representation of that is to place group B in between and somewhat overlapping groups A and C. 

And I'm talking chiefly dominant or submissive in orientation within the lifestyle... going beyond that to address dominant or submissive personalities in general situations is much broader than I care to tackle until I have more of a working theory.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 1:20:34 AM   
Padriag


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You know, its funny.  For someone who disagrees with me, you do quite a job of virtually proving my theory in this and your other recent thread here...
http://www.collarchat.com/m_500786/tm.htm

Looking at your post above, you said this...
quote:


i think we have all met people that we feel superior to as well, and we have no issue making them bag our groceries, clean our car ect...
 
for example some folks would turn into quivering jello if they met a famous star, others like Oprah have a comfort and an ease about that, but even Oprah turned into jelly when she met some one she idolized Sidney Poitier. For me, i meet stars all the time in my line of work, it does nothing for me, but when put in front  of Wane Dyer and Ram Das i turned into a puddle of incoherant goo.

And that's the point of my theory.  For you some of those people score a 8 or 9, others a 2 or 3 and some a 5 or 6.  To those scoring the 8 or 9 you feel submissive, to those scoring a 2 or 3 you react in a more dominant manner, and those scoring a 5 or 6 you reaction neutral or as equals. 

You disagreed with me after virtually saying the same thing as me.  Why is that hard to understand?

quote:

now when it comes to sex i really dont think it is all that different. i think that we react in a primal level to our sexual attractions and i would hope that a Domme or dom would come on this thread and prove me wrong and say that they have never felt a feeling of inferiority (maybe too strong a word but something akin to it) in the presence of a person of the opposite sex they wanted to fuck...
 
that would be interesting...

Well, congrats, you just met one.  And if you want to know why that is, look at what I just posted above.  I'm probably an 8 or 9.  So when I meet another dominant that scores as high, I feel neither submissive nor dominant towards them... my reaction is either one of indifference or a feeling of meeting an equal.  This is how I feel about people like IronBear and RavenMuse... they are people who strike me as being very dominant, but then so am I and so I perceive them as equals, neither inferior nor superior in a strictly Adlerian sense.

Another example would be a Domme I've been speaking with.  She's quite attractive and I'm not the least bit ashamed to say I'd enjoy going to bed with her.  But just because I'd like to fuck her doesn't mean I suddenly feel submissive towards her or her me for that matter.  We have and continue to speak as equals.  She doesn't cater to me and I don't cater to her... there are slaves for that.  And, she and I are both probably 8 or 9s, so we react as equals.

I'll grant that perception is a powerful factor in this, and its part of the theory I'm still working out.  What it implies is that the values aren't absolute but are in fact subjective.  That is, I react to another dominant as an equal because I perceive them to be so, a submissive reacts to someone as a dominant because they perceive that individual to be dominant.  More specifically I'm still working on the roots of these perceptions and valuations, but I'm digressing now...

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 3:01:51 AM   
swtnsparkling


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Just going to paste this answer because it is the same way I feel

quote:

I'll come back and answer this if I should ever have the experience of enjoying someone submitting to me....as of now it has not yet occurred. Yes....people have been submissive to me....no I have not enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that it generally makes me very uncomfortable.


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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 3:08:41 AM   
Lordandmaster


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That depends on what you mean by "switching."  If you mean taking the bottom role, sure.  If you mean genuinely submitting, then I'd have to disagree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i have never met anyone in this lifestyle for an extended period of time that did not switch.

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 4:27:05 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
For people who have never experienced this situation, they tend to be unable to really get the experience


That is certainly the case for me.

I have, so far in 40 years, met THREE people where I would say they where MORE Dominant than I. However, in all three cases that was also helped by context.

My Colour Sergeant and Regimental Scary Monster both outranked me and My sensei was a Man I aproached to learn from. All three where very Dominant people anyhow and all three earned a great deal of respect and trust from me by being damn good at what they did. I would have followed my Sergeant or RSM into battle without hesitation and My sensei was also a coach for the british Olympic squad.

Outside of that context we where equals and enjoyed each others company. They relied on my compitance even as I relied on theirs. I still have yet to meet anyone who draws out any feelings of submission from me.


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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 4:29:32 AM   
cheshireboy


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i tend to adapt to whatever sisuation i am in, in some ways being submissive to the needs of the moment...hense when needed...i will balance out the other person, just a ying yang approach....
 
cheshire
"if it was only just a smile"

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RE: Not another Nature/Nurture...? Nope. - 7/26/2006 6:04:25 AM   
juliaoceania


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I think it is both nature and nurture. There are many personality traits that are believed to be inherited these days.. but the real reason I think this is because of gay, hetro and bisexual debate. Just because one has sex with someone of the same gender goes not make them bi. Just because someone switched does not make them a switch.

I think most people have at least had some curiousity about being bisexual for example. People that are involved with BDSM are more experimental to start with, so why not experiment with switching for an array of reasons.. perhaps they want to know what it feels like on the other side or explore fantasies...

There was a male submissive my friend Irish told me about that had been a dominant and changed to become a submissive after his heart attack. He said that experience changed him on many levels, and it brought out his submissiveness. I think that some women may change an orientation because of hormone levels perhaps. These would be organic natural reasons to switch orientations, not necessarily nurture.

The older I get the more I am aware of how my internal states are based on hormonal and biochemical reactions and not completely on my surroundings alone. My body responds to the stimuli from the environment, but the way I am responding to it has been set up by my biochemicals. I think that we cannot separate nature and nurture because they are too closely intertwined to separate... But of course these are just my thoughts

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