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New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Politica... - 3/17/2017 10:38:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The Atlantic has an interesting piece yesterday called "What If the 'Populist Wave' Is Just Political Fragmentation"

Ever since the United Kingdom’s shocking vote to leave the European Union in 2016, nearly every political contest in the Western world has been characterized as a showdown between the moderate, establishment cosmopolitanism that has dominated Western politics for decades and the far-right populist nationalism that triumphed during the British referendum. Donald Trump’s election in the United States has been declared a victory for populist nationalism, whereas Norbert Hofer’s electoral defeat in Austria and now Geert Wilders’s loss in the Netherlands have been described as rejections of that ideology. The “call of the populists … stopped here in the Netherlands,” one Dutch politician proudly proclaimed after the country’s election this week. Upcoming elections in France and Germany are cited as the next crucial tests.

But what’s striking is how such sweeping conclusions are being drawn from such close votes. Had 80,000 Americans cast their ballots for Hillary Clinton instead of Trump, had a small percentage of Austrian, British, and Dutch voters changed their minds at polling stations, we might be talking today about the far right’s conquest of Austria and the Netherlands, and its retreat from the U.K. and the U.S., rather than the other way around.

The inconclusive results suggest that the most significant trend in Western democracies at the moment might not be the rise and fall of populist nationalism. Instead, it is arguably the disintegration of political parties. The story here is less about which specific type of politician people want to be represented by than about a crisis of democratic representation altogether—less about the empowerment of populists than about the broader diffusion of political power.
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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/18/2017 7:33:50 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		So the question is -- are we seeing truly a rise of populist nationalism?

Or are we seeing the beginning of the dissolution of the two party system?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/18/2017 5:46:52 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Not specifically. What we are seeing today is what our founding fathers studied in the ancient empires and what destroyed them...faction. And yet, those same men, did nothing to even try to stop it. Democracy for too many of them was...mob rule. So the mere numbers whether inspired by nationalism or populism and more likely inspired by poverty and a feeling of having no real power, would politically overwhelm the powerful minority and bring chaos or even anarchy. They ignored Aristotle and his idea of a regulated safety net. Who knows why so many of our founding fathers ignored the lessons of faction and as likely assumed that integrity and honesty would rule the day when even then...it didn't.

It was only Thomas Paine who argued that democracy was the real essence of self rule and would guard against what would almost surely be..a new political aristocracy. Madison and others disagreed and thought the land owners and industry leaders should control govt. Jefferson assumed the agrarian model would suffice to bring an egalitarianism to American society where as Adams and Hamilton thought that a partnership between govt. and business that would be the industrialists...would and should rule the day.

Now one could argue that also means the end of political parties but I disagree. What we see today is a greater division between the two parties. So for each, the other people who are...'not-like-us' (used to mean color or religion) now means politically not like us...are to be demonized, talked about in traitorous terms. Cast invective upon others even if you have to make it up. Then cast blame on all things on everything that represents the other side. We see profound efforts here to do just that, even if they have to make it up and either fail their history or...ignore it.

Faction while now an embryo, can be a fast moving dynamic that could if it persists in America, will in fact...be its downfall.





< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/18/2017 5:48:20 PM >

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/18/2017 5:52:07 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I understand where you are going with this but I think nothing has changed...except... the advent of the internet and all that goes with it.

Butch

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/19/2017 6:25:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		OK. Will that new Internet world change the old world of the two party system?

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 6:13:22 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. Will that new Internet world change the old world of the two party system?

Only if [it] results in a formal 3rd party, strong enough in every way including financially, to challenge the two party tyranny we have now.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 6:30:11 AM   
NoirMetal


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Status: offline 		I concur. We are seeing a rejection of political parties who no longer serve the interests of their constituents. Trump was elected on the promise of being a wrecking ball-one he is keeping at break neck speed. The parties are shitting their pants across the board-invest in depends stock for a massive dividend!

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 6:44:30 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

I concur. We are seeing a rejection of political parties who no longer serve the interests of their constituents. Trump was elected on the promise of being a wrecking ball-one he is keeping at break neck speed. The parties are shitting their pants across the board-invest in depends stock for a massive dividend!


They much preferred the admitted communist "socialist" who praised the Venezuelan dictatorship ("de facto")

But the Democrats stole the election from him, and gave us President Trump, much compounding their hysteria

< Message edited by BoscoX -- 3/20/2017 6:46:25 AM >

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:28:29 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

I concur. We are seeing a rejection of political parties who no longer serve the interests of their constituents. Trump was elected on the promise of being a wrecking ball-one he is keeping at break neck speed. The parties are shitting their pants across the board-invest in depends stock for a massive dividend!

I wish that were true, but I doubt it is. The major parties seem to be more doubling down than learning from their mutual shave.

And the voters follow like sheep, choosing between them, instead of just jumping ship and taking over.

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:30:51 AM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

I concur. We are seeing a rejection of political parties who no longer serve the interests of their constituents. Trump was elected on the promise of being a wrecking ball-one he is keeping at break neck speed. The parties are shitting their pants across the board-invest in depends stock for a massive dividend!

I wish that were true, but I doubt it is. The major parties seem to be more doubling down than learning from their mutual shave.

And the voters follow like sheep, choosing between them, instead of just jumping ship and taking over.

I am always the optimist,nearly always dissapointed.

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:34:01 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

I concur. We are seeing a rejection of political parties who no longer serve the interests of their constituents. Trump was elected on the promise of being a wrecking ball-one he is keeping at break neck speed. The parties are shitting their pants across the board-invest in depends stock for a massive dividend!

I wish that were true, but I doubt it is. The major parties seem to be more doubling down than learning from their mutual shave.

And the voters follow like sheep, choosing between them, instead of just jumping ship and taking over.


The voters jumped the ship and took over on the one side, went third party outsider non-politician. Gave the establishment the old heave-ho, sent the wrecking ball in

You didn't see a Jeb Bush RINO in the general election

The leftist sheep flocked with their jackal candidate though, who stole their primary

Well, for the most part they did. Some voted third party in states where their vote didn't matter to try to pretend they had testicles

That they werent cuntish wussified twats or however you like to say it

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:38:17 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Ah, no, they went major party primary winner.

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:41:22 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So the question is -- are we seeing truly a rise of populist nationalism?

Or are we seeing the beginning of the dissolution of the two party system?



Embrace the healing power of "and."

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:45:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		That's certainly possible. Where are you seeing the dissolution (the populism is apparent)?

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:49:26 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So the question is -- are we seeing truly a rise of populist nationalism?

Or are we seeing the beginning of the dissolution of the two party system?

Embrace the healing power of "and."

No more calls, we have a winner!

K.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:52:19 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Ah, no, they went major party primary winner.


That post reminds me of the old "Twister" game



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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:55:47 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's certainly possible. Where are you seeing the dissolution (the populism is apparent)?



The democrat party is losing its hold on those that have historically supported them. The GOP, especially in congress, is losing its hold on their base as well.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: New "Populism" actually Diffusion of Poli... - 3/20/2017 7:56:34 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		True dat. Thanks!

. . . At the same time, though, those disaffected voters on both "sides" are mainly still voting for the major parties (or staying home on Election Day, which still concedes power to the two major parties implicitly).

No?

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/20/2017 8:06:59 AM >

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