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LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 5:00:21 PM)

I don't consider myself an expert on Gor. I have a lot respect for certain people who choose a Gorean path.

However, please feel free to tell me about this "true" Gor.




tamaka -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 5:11:04 PM)

I'm no expert either but i am referring to those who agree with the tenants of 'Gorean' philosophy vs those who know little to nothing about the philosophy and just like the trappings (costumes, vocabulary, slave commands... that kind of stuff).



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 5:22:42 PM)

Gorean philosophizes such as what? Like being true to one's own nature?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. your philosophy ] i.e., philosophy (or learning) in general. The emphasis here should be on "dreamt of", as Hamlet is pointing out how little even the most educated people can explain.



tamaka -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 5:38:54 PM)

If you're truly interested, this is a good resource.

http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id130.htm



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 7:20:58 PM)

While I appreciate that, it's not really reaching me. As I'm sure you understand, I'm not really big on penis=superior and vagina =inferior, just because well, PENIS.

In my opinion, leather is different than this. Leather evolves as nature and nurture evolves.

<sigh>

"Always start at the beginning."

For what it's worth, any person who is going to squawk about leather should know a thing or two about leather history. It's kind of like that 'you can't be in the present without the past' thing.

The ORIGINAL Old Guard? Well, they all had the same skin pigment. Kind of the same thing you'd expect from post WWII and into the fifties. When the guys came home... Well, it wasn't the same. The *ORIGINAL* Old Guard? Where are the people of color?

Then, that happened for a little while. The Korean Conflict. The segregation of schools. Stonewall. Vietnam.

Fucking and sucking became... Different.

Not all at once. For the hets, it was the summers of free love, Woodstock, such and such. For the leathermen, it was the beginning of the difference between the old guard and the new guard. Stuff like poker runs and so -called "titles" to get people in the clubs and buy more beer.

(For what it's worth, there will always be an old guard and a new guard. It's the 'generations' of leather concept.)

Then, Dykes on Bikes. (Yes, that's a real thing.) And, that wasn't terribly successful about this whole 'old guard' and 'new guard' thing.

But, then came GRID. It was devastating, and yet, this same catastrophic thing, gave us purpose. We evolved.

The het folks? New era. A new guard and old guard. I kind of think it was a new movement. That gay people incorporated het people because of the voices heard. We became a greater community. One that has seen EQUAL protection under the law.

Oh, yeah... By the way... 'Pleather" is an insult.





NoirMetal -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 8:43:06 PM)

Yup,and I do have my insults down pat by now.

Here a Faux, there a Faux-everywhere a Faux Faux!



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 9:20:54 PM)

I must be spending too much time down in P&R. I keep hearing faux news.

Pleather or the old-fashioned 'insta-leather,' is usually what a person gets called when they want to *claim* leather but all they want to do is beat their chest about it. A parallel would be like some Gorean dude who tries to tell people they are Gorean without learning anything about philosophy, reading the books, and basically coming off like a dumb-ass. No homestone, concept of the free, etc. Just "me have dick". Does that sound reasonable to you?



NoirMetal -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 9:35:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I must be spending too much time down in P&R. I keep hearing faux news.

Pleather or the old-fashioned 'insta-leather,' is usually what a person gets called when they want to *claim* leather but all they want to do is beat their chest about it. A parallel would be like some Gorean dude who tries to tell people they are Gorean without learning anything about philosophy, reading the books, and basically coming off like a dumb-ass. No homestone, concept of the free, etc. Just "me have dick". Does that sound reasonable to you?


Norman actually came up with a pretty clear culture. Anyone could become a slave if a prisoner of war. But the female ones were better wank fodder for the guys.



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/13/2017 10:07:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal
Norman actually came up with a pretty clear culture. Anyone could become a slave if a prisoner of war. But the female ones were better wank fodder for the guys.

Oddly enough, I've never considered leather a "clear" culture. Before my time, the leather in Chicago was different than the leather in Dallas, which differed from the leather in CA, which wasn't the same in LA.

No offense, but we have sex slaves in the leather culture, too. [:D] (pssst... In case you missed it, I did say a part of the whole leather culture started out because of f^cking and s^ckng. [8D] A dash of hierarchy and military type protocols thrown in there, mix in some regional flavors and whatnot.) S/m. Plenty of that. Sexual service. Leather toys. Rope. Ya know... The good stuff.




bondageerone -> RE: best topics (5/14/2017 3:07:07 AM)

it is fairly obvious what MY best topic is. xx



NoirMetal -> RE: best topics (5/16/2017 4:40:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal
Norman actually came up with a pretty clear culture. Anyone could become a slave if a prisoner of war. But the female ones were better wank fodder for the guys.

Oddly enough, I've never considered leather a "clear" culture. Before my time, the leather in Chicago was different than the leather in Dallas, which differed from the leather in CA, which wasn't the same in LA.

No offense, but we have sex slaves in the leather culture, too. [:D] (pssst... In case you missed it, I did say a part of the whole leather culture started out because of f^cking and s^ckng. [8D] A dash of hierarchy and military type protocols thrown in there, mix in some regional flavors and whatnot.) S/m. Plenty of that. Sexual service. Leather toys. Rope. Ya know... The good stuff.



I was talking about Gor, sorry to change the subject. Oddly, the book "Sissies of Gor" seems never to have gone to press. Homosexuals are never mentioned by John,but one of those fellows as a Master could be scary writing. All of those poor castrated men of war, forced to make frilly pants or be flayed alive!

Edgy.



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/20/2017 2:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetalI was talking about Gor, sorry to change the subject. Oddly, the book "Sissies of Gor" seems never to have gone to press. Homosexuals are never mentioned by John,but one of those fellows as a Master could be scary writing. All of those poor castrated men of war, forced to make frilly pants or be flayed alive!

Edgy.

One of the things I have always found difficult about (what I call) cultural exchange, is about how we understand each other better. It's not for lack of trying. I don't think I've ever grasped how people of different sexual orientations aren't a part of the "natural order".

I hate to put a generalization out there, but we het leather people, like it or not, we come from gay leather. If there wasn't a "them," there wouldn't be an us.





WickedsDesire -> RE: best topics (5/21/2017 8:43:31 AM)

You women dont thread enough (yes we know most of you, most times, avoid the Politic and religion thread as we get a bit sweary with each other at times-or is it those socks(venting thread really all sites need one)) - actually same with most guys on here

And noir i think the Goreans have their own forum on here. Never read any of the stuff so i am not qualified to comment, and what the hell is gay leather?

cant say i have noticed any threads from you Noir since you started this one?






LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/21/2017 5:45:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
And noir i think the Goreans have their own forum on here. Never read any of the stuff so i am not qualified to comment, and what the hell is gay leather?

Ya know, I'm going to write this response with a great amount of hesitation. I'm always apprehensive about this stuff. I don't want random people on the forums thinking I'm trying to be the 'voice' of leather or that I'm the best person going about leather history. Frankly, my Leather Elders are so much more competent than I am when it comes to this kind of thing.

If you're going to ask a question like "what is gay leather," I can't really give you an accurate answer unless you're more specific about what era you're talking about. The original old guard, what gay leather is today, or some time period in-between? As an example that shows the contrast, if you asked about gay leather from the seventies, you'd get a completely different answer from me than if you asked about leather in the nineties.

Rather than listening to me, check out something called "The Leather Archives and Museum".




DocStrange -> RE: best topics (5/21/2017 7:53:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
And noir i think the Goreans have their own forum on here. Never read any of the stuff so i am not qualified to comment, and what the hell is gay leather?

Ya know, I'm going to write this response with a great amount of hesitation. I'm always apprehensive about this stuff. I don't want random people on the forums thinking I'm trying to be the 'voice' of leather or that I'm the best person going about leather history. Frankly, my Leather Elders are so much more competent than I am when it comes to this kind of thing.

If you're going to ask a question like "what is gay leather," I can't really give you an accurate answer unless you're more specific about what era you're talking about. The original old guard, what gay leather is today, or some time period in-between? As an example that shows the contrast, if you asked about gay leather from the seventies, you'd get a completely different answer from me than if you asked about leather in the nineties.

Rather than listening to me, check out something called "The Leather Archives and Museum".




The origins of Old Guard/Gay Leather in the US stem from World War II. Many men from that era experienced their first homosexual experience in the military. Not unexpected when you think about it. A nasty war, long tours of duty, no access to women. You have to let off steam somehow. Those people did not know if they were going to make it back alive. So they took advantage of what ever pleasures they could.

Coming out of the war many of the people continued to indulge in their homosexual indulgences. The movement grew and peaked in the 70s. The Old Guard today does not exist today as it did back then. There are some elements people hand on to but with anything, with time things change.

https://www.evilmonk.org/a/oldguard.cfm
https://leatherati.com/the-old-guard-classical-leather-culture-revisited-4fdc796aa25






NoirMetal -> RE: best topics (5/21/2017 9:02:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

You women dont thread enough (yes we know most of you, most times, avoid the Politic and religion thread as we get a bit sweary with each other at times-or is it those socks(venting thread really all sites need one)) - actually same with most guys on here

And noir i think the Goreans have their own forum on here. Never read any of the stuff so i am not qualified to comment, and what the hell is gay leather?

cant say i have noticed any threads from you Noir since you started this one?





Life interrupts my fantasies at times-bugger.



LadyPact -> RE: best topics (5/28/2017 8:00:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
And noir i think the Goreans have their own forum on here. Never read any of the stuff so i am not qualified to comment, and what the hell is gay leather?

Ya know, I'm going to write this response with a great amount of hesitation. I'm always apprehensive about this stuff. I don't want random people on the forums thinking I'm trying to be the 'voice' of leather or that I'm the best person going about leather history. Frankly, my Leather Elders are so much more competent than I am when it comes to this kind of thing.

If you're going to ask a question like "what is gay leather," I can't really give you an accurate answer unless you're more specific about what era you're talking about. The original old guard, what gay leather is today, or some time period in-between? As an example that shows the contrast, if you asked about gay leather from the seventies, you'd get a completely different answer from me than if you asked about leather in the nineties.

Rather than listening to me, check out something called "The Leather Archives and Museum".




The origins of Old Guard/Gay Leather in the US stem from World War II. Many men from that era experienced their first homosexual experience in the military. Not unexpected when you think about it. A nasty war, long tours of duty, no access to women. You have to let off steam somehow. Those people did not know if they were going to make it back alive. So they took advantage of what ever pleasures they could.

Coming out of the war many of the people continued to indulge in their homosexual indulgences. The movement grew and peaked in the 70s. The Old Guard today does not exist today as it did back then. There are some elements people hand on to but with anything, with time things change.

https://www.evilmonk.org/a/oldguard.cfm
https://leatherati.com/the-old-guard-classical-leather-culture-revisited-4fdc796aa25

Just wanted to say, thanks for posting the links. You saved me a sh^tload of keystrokes.

What is contained in those links, pretty much, is leather history as I know it. Not because I read it online. Like you, my education was so much different. I was at the leather bar before I ever owned a computer. (Unless a person is an alcoholic and can not be in an environment around booze, I consider the leather bar as a part of a person's education.)

To this day, I still consider GRC or GRID to be the greatest catalyst that the leather culture has ever known. For all I've tried, I've never come up with something that could have the same impact. All of the grief. All of the suffering. The people who disposed of bodies in hazmat suits.

This is a part of the leather culture, too.





DocStrange -> RE: best topics (6/2/2017 3:14:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Just wanted to say, thanks for posting the links. You saved me a sh^tload of keystrokes.

What is contained in those links, pretty much, is leather history as I know it. Not because I read it online. Like you, my education was so much different. I was at the leather bar before I ever owned a computer. (Unless a person is an alcoholic and can not be in an environment around booze, I consider the leather bar as a part of a person's education.)

To this day, I still consider GRC or GRID to be the greatest catalyst that the leather culture has ever known. For all I've tried, I've never come up with something that could have the same impact. All of the grief. All of the suffering. The people who disposed of bodies in hazmat suits.

This is a part of the leather culture, too.



I find it ironic that I knew of leather bars but never knew what it really entailed when I was younger. I was really naive back then. My first exposure to it was in my mid teens. I was grease monkey turning wrenches in a garage. A part time job for me in high school and later full time job out of high school for awhile. The shop I worked as was fairly close to a leather bar. It was common for them to drop of their vehicles at our shop and have them serviced or get a call when their ride broke down. I also find it amusing that Cincinnati was so anti-porn that you could not buy a Playboy magazine within Hamilton county limits as it was illegal to sell. At the same time we had some well known leather bars around town. We still do today.

I had to Google GRC/GRID (gay related immune deficiency) as I had not heard that terminology before. I had heard the gay disease and then finally AIDS so I learned something new today. Thank you for that. In all honesty I really was not immersed into the BDSM world until the mid 80s. Not sure if GRID was not used here or I simply was not exposed to it.

I have to run for now.... have a plane to catch for Minneapolis which supposedly is one of the gayest cities? Who knew?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: best topics (6/2/2017 7:07:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

As I'm sure you understand, I'm not really big on penis=superior and vagina =inferior, just because well, PENIS.



Neither are Goreans. Especially if you're meaning 'inferior' as in 'worse than' and 'superior' as in 'better than'.

A core tenet of Gorean philosophy holds that neither sex is 'worse than' or 'better than' the other.
In fact, the believe that neither sex is inherently better or worse than the other is absolutely crucial to Gorean mindset, and is a starting point for a whole range of Gorean believes about people and their social interactions, to the point that somebody who does believe that one sex is better than the other couldn't possible follow the Gorean philosophy. The two are incompatible.

Goreans also believe that inferiority in the sense of 'lower position than', and superiority in the sense of 'in a higher position than' is a social construct which isn't valid unless it's actually backed up by the natural inclinations of the people in question. I.E.: you cannot be superior to somebody -regardless of their sex and your own- unless you actually are. If you aren't, no law, no social construct, not your gender, nor your social position, can change that you're not.







UllrsIshtar -> RE: best topics (6/2/2017 7:14:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

Homosexuals are never mentioned by John,but one of those fellows as a Master could be scary writing.


They are. There was mention of homosexuality among the Red Savages (plains Indians).
As well as a homosexual master, who openly kept a male slave as his sex slave in Magicians.

The only critique Goreans ever uttered to Apponius (the Master) is that he fell so in love with his slave Milo, that he allowed Milo to manipulate him, and that he basically had Apponius wound around his little finger.
Due to this Milo was granted many freedoms slaves usually don't have, and ended up betraying his Master.
The general Gorean opinion was that this was distasteful, because one should keep one's slaves on a shorter leash. But the opinion would have been the same had it involved a female slave, and none of the Goreans involved ever bothered to even take special notice of the fact that Apponius was homosexual.



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