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Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 9:19:35 AM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		Just a hypothesis tossed out to be torn up and torn down if you will....

Both the far left and far right share the trait in thinking that their paradigm is the only valid paradigm.
Human societies tend to a fallacy in thinking the mores and customs of their own tiny tribe have some universal moral imperative. When the customs of the tribe are challenged by "others" the tendency is to enforce the customs by force.

When it comes to human interactions; there is no one universal paradigm. There may be a statistical distribution of customs; but no indication of any universal consensus.

Aren't all of us on this site outliers of the norm?
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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 9:28:09 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Just a hypothesis tossed out to be torn up and torn down if you will....

Both the far left and far right share the trait in thinking that their paradigm is the only valid paradigm.
Human societies tend to a fallacy in thinking the mores and customs of their own tiny tribe have some universal moral imperative. When the customs of the tribe are challenged by "others" the tendency is to enforce the customs by force.

When it comes to human interactions; there is no one universal paradigm. There may be a statistical distribution of customs; but no indication of any universal consensus.

Aren't all of us on this site outliers of the norm?

A useful and interesting point, but I don't get the impression that the far left is much of a factor in American politics. When you see a few of the trolls dismissing people like Hilary Clinton as members of the "alt left" consensus you do wonder what that's based on, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with political ideology. The democrats and the republicans are both pretty far right of centre, and Clinton spent her campaign pretending to be a republican.
Not to say that the partisan dismissal isn't a factor, but I don't think it's got much to do with what somebody outside of the 'States would call right or left, in this case. It all seems to be about the two right leaning parties rather than ideology.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 10:06:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Just a hypothesis tossed out to be torn up and torn down if you will....

Both the far left and far right share the trait in thinking that their paradigm is the only valid paradigm.
Human societies tend to a fallacy in thinking the mores and customs of their own tiny tribe have some universal moral imperative. When the customs of the tribe are challenged by "others" the tendency is to enforce the customs by force.

When it comes to human interactions; there is no one universal paradigm. There may be a statistical distribution of customs; but no indication of any universal consensus.

Aren't all of us on this site outliers of the norm?

There are those here who believe they speak for the majority.

Juvenile and naive, yes, but self-righteousness is self-affirming.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 10:09:38 AM   
WhoreMods


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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
There are those here who believe they speak for the majority.

Juvenile and naive, yes, but self-righteousness is self-affirming.

Also, it's a lot easier than thought.
(There are those who if they couldn't convince themselves that they were speaking for the majority, wouldn't dare open their traps at all. It's been suggested that el presidente has convinced many such cowardly big mouths that they have a mandate from both the republican party and the people of United States, and so can spout as much crap as they like from now on. Great, innit?)

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 1:46:04 PM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		i think its an interesting consideration, and I agree there is a tendency towards "force" by people on either end of the spectrums.

I posted something a while ago that tried to reorient the left/right paradigms into ones of "freedom loving" as opposed to "freedom limiting." it didn't get a lot of traction.

however, in refutation I would say this---one side has an accurate/appropriate reading of human nature, and the other side does not.

what flows from the former works, in so much as anything can in a fallen, imperfect world can, while what flows from the latter is usually oppressive at least, and massively disastrous at worst.

and in terms of what I see here---its the lefties who are the "outliers."

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 1:47:54 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		And here we have proof of my hypothesis, in his own words.

No data . . . as his own belief trumps the need.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/12/2017 2:22:21 PM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		The automatic assumption that his side are freedom loving and the other lot aren't is rather telling as well, I'd have said.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:19:27 PM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

A useful and interesting point, but I don't get the impression that the far left is much of a factor in American politics. When you see a few of the trolls dismissing people like Hilary Clinton as members of the "alt left" consensus you do wonder what that's based on, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with political ideology. The democrats and the republicans are both pretty far right of centre, and Clinton spent her campaign pretending to be a republican.
Not to say that the partisan dismissal isn't a factor, but I don't think it's got much to do with what somebody outside of the 'States would call right or left, in this case. It all seems to be about the two right leaning parties rather than ideology.


Oh, the far left has huge traction in American politics as it is playing out in universities these days. Antifa and many campus activists have turned into truly bolshevik enclaves. And I use "bolshevik" as opposed to "communist" as they seem to be stuck in the 1918 Revolution mentality of kill anyone who dares to differ.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:31:34 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Oh, the far left has huge traction in American politics as it is playing out in universities these days. Antifa and many campus activists have turned into truly bolshevik enclaves. And I use "bolshevik" as opposed to "communist" as they seem to be stuck in the 1918 Revolution mentality of kill anyone who dares to differ.


Yeah, gone off the rails. Totalitarian, communist in my opinion. Can you name a significant group on the right that is like them, equal in numbers and influence?

And they are pretty mainstream in the Democrat party, wouldn't you agree?

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:41:47 PM   
heavyblinker


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Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure that you can have dogmatic centrists too.
The people who are most open to change are the ones who don't really believe in anything so strongly.

It also depends on how you view the political spectrum-- but I will say if you think fascism and communism are at the same end, you're a fucking moron.

I will say it's probably pretty unlikely that someone would align themselves with a traditionally 'outsider' stance like communism or fascism without feeling really strongly about it.

I also don't think there's some sort of Bolshevik revolution going on at the universities-- it's all just RWNJ paranoia and FOX news. There were loud left-wingers/socialists/communists/anarchists on campus when I was there too, but the majority of students didn't even give a shit... political discussions are actually really boring and nobody ever wins. Getting stoned and watching cartoons/playing video games/wandering around all night is more fun.
On the other hand, Trump's fascist rhetoric did a lot to stir everyone up so who even knows anymore.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:44:02 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

The automatic assumption that his side are freedom loving and the other lot aren't is rather telling as well, I'd have said.re


I think both sides are freedom loving. It's just their definition of freedom that is different. Your view of money and how it relates to freedom is what creates the division., imo.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:48:48 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
I think both sides are freedom loving. It's just their definition of freedom that is different. Your view of money and how it relates to freedom is what creates the division., imo.


I think 'freedom' is a meaningless term designed to override everyone's capacity for critical thought.
The people who believe in the 'American Dream' or the just world fallacy are especially lost.



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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:50:07 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

A useful and interesting point, but I don't get the impression that the far left is much of a factor in American politics. When you see a few of the trolls dismissing people like Hilary Clinton as members of the "alt left" consensus you do wonder what that's based on, as it doesn't seem to have anything to do with political ideology. The democrats and the republicans are both pretty far right of centre, and Clinton spent her campaign pretending to be a republican.
Not to say that the partisan dismissal isn't a factor, but I don't think it's got much to do with what somebody outside of the 'States would call right or left, in this case. It all seems to be about the two right leaning parties rather than ideology.


Oh, the far left has huge traction in American politics as it is playing out in universities these days. Antifa and many campus activists have turned into truly bolshevik enclaves. And I use "bolshevik" as opposed to "communist" as they seem to be stuck in the 1918 Revolution mentality of kill anyone who dares to differ.

That may well be true, but even if that is the case, what does this hardcore communist contingent have to do with the political mainstream? I know you get imbeciles insisting that the right-leaning democrats are communists and that there's no difference between communist students and the democrats as a whole, but the spectacle of the leftist Sanders getting sidelined in favour of the wannabe-republican Clinton, and the last democrat president providing Bush II's third and fourth terms in blackface should really have put paid to anybody whose lips don't move when they read taking that argument seriously by now. The tribalism in American politics at present has nothing to with leftism or rightism, and ideology takes a back seat to party politics.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 12:58:56 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
the last democrat president providing Bush II's third and fourth terms in blackface


Not that I think Obama is a radical socialist, but could you really picture W. passing ACA or going after the big GHG emitters?
There are still some pretty important differences that can't be ignored... and just because the Greens or Libertarians can say whatever the fuck they want and never have to worry about backing it up, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't end up taking baby steps like Obama did.

I'd love to see the US going down the European Social Democrat/Canadian Liberal route too, but it's not going to happen in the space of 8 years, especially when you have the fucking fascists on the right constantly pulling everyone towards oblivion.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 1:05:47 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
the last democrat president providing Bush II's third and fourth terms in blackface


Not that I think Obama is a radical socialist, but could you really picture W. passing ACA or going after the big GHG emitters?
There are still some pretty important differences that can't be ignored... and just because the Greens or Libertarians can say whatever the fuck they want and never have to worry about backing it up, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't end up taking baby steps like Obama did.

I'd love to see the US going down the European Social Democrat/Canadian Liberal route too, but it's not going to happen in the space of 8 years, especially when you have the fucking fascists on the right constantly pulling everyone towards oblivion.

Fair point, but it's easy to see the ACA as a concession to those who were unimpressed by Obama's rather neocon foreign policy. There've been republicans claiming that he cribbed the whole idea of enforced healthcare without a single payer provision from them, after all.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 1:07:12 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
I think both sides are freedom loving. It's just their definition of freedom that is different. Your view of money and how it relates to freedom is what creates the division., imo.


I think 'freedom' is a meaningless term designed to override everyone's capacity for critical thought.
The people who believe in the 'American Dream' or the just world fallacy are especially lost.





Good point

At least some on the far left dispute that freedom is even a real thing, much less whether freedom itself and the right to pursue happiness etc, are worthy ideals

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 1:10:39 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
the last democrat president providing Bush II's third and fourth terms in blackface


Not that I think Obama is a radical socialist, but could you really picture W. passing ACA or going after the big GHG emitters?
There are still some pretty important differences that can't be ignored... and just because the Greens or Libertarians can say whatever the fuck they want and never have to worry about backing it up, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't end up taking baby steps like Obama did.

I'd love to see the US going down the European Social Democrat/Canadian Liberal route too, but it's not going to happen in the space of 8 years, especially when you have the fucking fascists on the right constantly pulling everyone towards oblivion.


At least you're entertaining

You don't believe in freedom, and call those who do fascists

Funny stuff


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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 1:18:45 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Fair point, but it's easy to see the ACA as a concession to those who were unimpressed by Obama's rather neocon foreign policy. There've been republicans claiming that he cribbed the whole idea of enforced healthcare without a single payer provision from them, after all.


Eh, I think he wanted to make a name for himself, and helping the poor get health care was his way of doing that.
He wanted to do a lot more, actually.

But really, voting against climate change denial should be any non-retarded person's top priority.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 3:26:34 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

The automatic assumption that his side are freedom loving and the other lot aren't is rather telling as well, I'd have said.re


I think both sides are freedom loving. It's just their definition of freedom that is different. Your view of money and how it relates to freedom is what creates the division., imo.


I think that's a good point tamaka, and we may indeed define/understand freedom differently. I suspect its very analogous to the argument over negative rights and positive rights.

however, the essence of our founding and its precursors were ones of negative rights.

so half tongue in cheek, i'll say the contemporary left is engaged in wanting to make America something that our founders didn't intend and that they should, as I have said numerous times, move to Sweden or cuba.

also---isn't that illustrative of a another difference between right and left. one says, the constitution, our history, our traditions, etc, matter, while the other typically does not value that.

in any event---even despite arguments over how we understand freedom---i think I said this in my first post, the primary totalitarians these days, are the lefties.

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RE: Far left, far right, common trait... - 5/13/2017 9:35:25 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		You would be cockgargling your usual putinjizz dogshit44, insofar as what founding fathers wanted, you are clueless, ineffectual, impotent, retarded, and unknowledgeable. They didnt want women indians or blacks to vote for one thing and they tried but failed to keep you retards from voting.

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