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The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 9:58:51 AM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline 		Aristotle felt that women were less than men because they lacked 'the deliberative element'. Women were not able to use logic and reason to make decisions as men were.

In a deliberatiive democracy, elected officials were supposed to use logic and reason, rather than base their decisions on a power struggle.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberation

Do you think men are de-volving? Are women evolving?

< Message edited by tamaka -- 5/18/2017 10:32:10 AM >
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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:37:49 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		In the beginning was the end...

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On the level and looking for a square deal.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:37:54 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline 		How does this relate to Trump?
I think you might have posted this in the wrong forum.


But no, I don't think men are devolving.
Evolution is about adapting to one's environment, not some progression towards enlightenment.

People everywhere are becoming stupider, weaker and less disciplined simply because less is being demanded of them, and the result (being rich) is more important than the process (how you got there).
That's what society becomes in late stage capitalism... at least from the capitalists there are no ideals, no real vision for society-- they think it's as simple as 'a strong economy will make everyone happy'.

On the other hand, the freedom that women have recently gained through feminism, suffrage, etc. places more demands on them, so they are adapting to that.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:45:47 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Does that apply to blacks also?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:53:04 AM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does that apply to blacks also?


Good question.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:56:19 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does that apply to blacks also?


As a general rule, treating someone the way you believe them to be causes them to act that way.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 11:19:59 AM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

How does this relate to Trump?
I think you might have posted this in the wrong forum.


But no, I don't think men are devolving.
Evolution is about adapting to one's environment, not some progression towards enlightenment.

People everywhere are becoming stupider, weaker and less disciplined simply because less is being demanded of them, and the result (being rich) is more important than the process (how you got there).
That's what society becomes in late stage capitalism... at least from the capitalists there are no ideals, no real vision for society-- they think it's as simple as 'a strong economy will make everyone happy'.

On the other hand, the freedom that women have recently gained through feminism, suffrage, etc. places more demands on them, so they are adapting to that.



But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 12:00:12 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		I am elemental, and you a mental fuk.

I understand all for I am magnificent, unlike you, a complete disaster

But i am the bigger man, with a huge cokage. I will hear you and can you explain the orange disaster to me.

Commence whilst i Look out the big stick for you

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 12:02:07 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?

If we create the environment, then we can adjust it to suit ourselves, rather than having to adapt to it.
Pretty simple, yes?

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 12:04:29 PM   
InfoMan


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Status: offline 		Aristotle Politics 1.1260a11:
"for the slave has not got the deliberative part at all, and the female has it, but without full authority, while the child has it, but in an undeveloped form."

The point Aristotle was trying to make in this discussion was not that men are superior but rather identify what we should expect from individuals, how we should expect them to react to certain situations, or behave in specific conditions... To a larger point he is discussing more the responsibilities and moralities each is entrusted with by society.

"And nearly the same is the question also raised about the woman: have they too virtues(?)... ought a woman to be temperate, brave and just(?)...

Simply said - should you expect a woman to pull up sword and draw blood in defense of house and home or is it right for them to flee from danger?
Should you expect a woman that has lost her home, family, and her children to act rationally and justly rather then out of rage or vengeance?



The problem with Deliberative Democracy is that decisions are made not on their moral sense of right and wrong, nor the inherent value of good it might do - but instead purely on the calculated fact which is based off of the limited amount of information that may be provided. As such - even in a representative democracy - it allows for the core elements of a pure democracy to shine through. Pure Democracy - as you may or may not know - is the most evil thing on the planet.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 12:53:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Aristotle felt that women were less than men because they lacked 'the deliberative element'. Women were not able to use logic and reason to make decisions as men were.

Women, broadly averaged, tend to exhibit different traits than men. Women, broadly averaged, like to build relationships; men, broadly averaged, like to build things. But reason must necessarily proceed from premises, and wherever men and women start from different premises (say, for example, about what is most important in a given situation) they can arrive perfectly logically at different conclusions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Do you think men are de-volving? Are women evolving?

I would like to think that both are evolving, not only with regard to appreciating the fact that there is value to be recognized in both points of view, but also with regard to acknowledging the fact that in some instances one or the other may be more appropriate to the nature of a particular situation.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/18/2017 12:55:35 PM >

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 5:52:32 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		I have met some really sharp women who have a background in philosophy. the jury is still out but I would lean toward solid reason is a learned characteristic. would be interesting to have logic testing with the same data sets to see who gets the highest scres.

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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 5:54:59 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I have met some really sharp women who have a background in philosophy. the jury is still out but I would lean toward solid reason is a learned characteristic. would be interesting to have logic testing with the same data sets to see who gets the highest scres.


I agree with you. It would be very interesting. I wonder if there is any such research out there.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 9:11:18 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?


That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 9:14:59 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?


That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us.


Good point. And i think right now we have friction because we see different perspectives regarding what it is doing to us.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:06:08 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?


That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us.


Good point. And i think right now we have friction because we see different perspectives regarding what it is doing to us.


if you are talking about the narrow 2 sided its my way or the hiway political venue they are both wrong. they are kept in their tiny dark bubbles fed shit and they think they know what it takes to fix the world, they are clueless merely clipping the leaves with the full belief a new plant will grow from it. not.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:10:43 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?


That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us.


Good point. And i think right now we have friction because we see different perspectives regarding what it is doing to us.


if you are talking about the narrow 2 sided its my way or the hiway political venue they are both wrong. they are kept in their tiny dark bubbles fed shit and they think they know what it takes to fix the world, they are clueless merely clipping the leaves with the full belief a new plant will grow from it. not.


I totally agree with you. I wonder how we will eventually break away from that kind of thinking.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 10:19:39 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Few days ago I am in a local store and walking out the door, the kid says hey sir I need to see your receipt, I held out my hand and responded, may I see a copy of your search warrant please, kid looks at me goes ugh and I walked out. Meantime about 4 others were digging for their receipts change is possible but not probable.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 11:08:39 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline 		Well, at least we can be sure that the paranoid 'don't fuck with me' douchebags definitely aren't the problem.

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RE: The Deliberative Element - 5/18/2017 11:46:00 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to?


That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us.


Good point. And i think right now we have friction because we see different perspectives regarding what it is doing to us.


if you are talking about the narrow 2 sided its my way or the hiway political venue they are both wrong. they are kept in their tiny dark bubbles fed shit and they think they know what it takes to fix the world, they are clueless merely clipping the leaves with the full belief a new plant will grow from it. not.


I totally agree with you. I wonder how we will eventually break away from that kind of thinking.



Neither party represents everything that everyone wants... but there are enough reasons to get behind one or the other to make supporting them at least somewhat worthwhile.

There is no way in hell I would ever support anyone who thinks climate change is a myth, who wants to privatize all schools, who thinks that the rich deserve more because 'they earned it', etc.

If such a person gets power, then anything that will lead to them losing that power is good. ANYTHING.
Does this mean I love their opponent? NO... but whether or not they are a better choice isn't even debatable.

In a two party system, you can't afford not to be at least a little partisan... if you sit back and don't participate because you can't get EVERYTHING you want, you'll just lose out.

I've voted for the Greens before and it was a waste... they're ridiculous, mostly because they don't have a hope in hell so they can say whatever they want knowing they will never have to follow through.
This is also the case with people like RealOne-- he will always think he has all the answers, and he will never realize he doesn't because everyone with a brain knows that his ideas are too ridiculous to ever be implemented.
Trump is a perfect example of what happens when an idiot who thinks he has all the answers becomes president-- he is marginalized within his own party and is humiliated in front of everyone.

It would seriously help if people didn't keep wavering back and forth between the right wingers and the people who think it's still 1979 and it's not too late to go back to some nightmare version of the 1950s.
If Hillary had won, you might have seen actual change in the GOP... losing the presidency 3 times in a row is a big deal.
Bill won after Reagan made everyone love the GOP because he moved the Dems to the right... it was a major shift that resulted in pretty much everything that people bitch about nowadays. That wouldn't have happened if the GOP hadn't won 3 consecutive terms.


But now they're getting more of the same, except worse.



< Message edited by heavyblinker -- 5/18/2017 11:49:18 PM >

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