RE: The Deliberative Element

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Chaska -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 2:36:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka But don't we create the environment we are adapting ourselves to? That doesn't mean we have absolute knowledge about what it is doing to us. Good point. And i think right now we have friction because we see different perspectives regarding what it is doing to us. if you are talking about the narrow 2 sided its my way or the hiway political venue they are both wrong. they are kept in their tiny dark bubbles fed shit and they think they know what it takes to fix the world, they are clueless merely clipping the leaves with the full belief a new plant will grow from it. not. I totally agree with you. I wonder how we will eventually break away from that kind of thinking. Neither party represents everything that everyone wants... but there are enough reasons to get behind one or the other to make supporting them at least somewhat worthwhile. There is no way in hell I would ever support anyone who thinks climate change is a myth, who wants to privatize all schools, who thinks that the rich deserve more because 'they earned it', etc. If such a person gets power, then anything that will lead to them losing that power is good. ANYTHING. Does this mean I love their opponent? NO... but whether or not they are a better choice isn't even debatable. In a two party system, you can't afford not to be at least a little partisan... if you sit back and don't participate because you can't get EVERYTHING you want, you'll just lose out. I've voted for the Greens before and it was a waste... they're ridiculous, mostly because they don't have a hope in hell so they can say whatever they want knowing they will never have to follow through. This is also the case with people like RealOne-- he will always think he has all the answers, and he will never realize he doesn't because everyone with a brain knows that his ideas are too ridiculous to ever be implemented. Trump is a perfect example of what happens when an idiot who thinks he has all the answers becomes president-- he is marginalized within his own party and is humiliated in front of everyone. It would seriously help if people didn't keep wavering back and forth between the right wingers and the people who think it's still 1979 and it's not too late to go back to some nightmare version of the 1950s. If Hillary had won, you might have seen actual change in the GOP... losing the presidency 3 times in a row is a big deal. Bill won after Reagan made everyone love the GOP because he moved the Dems to the right... it was a major shift that resulted in pretty much everything that people bitch about nowadays. That wouldn't have happened if the GOP hadn't won 3 consecutive terms. But now they're getting more of the same, except worse. That's because you're the perfect little submissive bitch easily molded by the party of identity politics to their liken with, what to think, say and do. No independent or critical thinking needed or the ability. Now run, lap up your latest dose of MSM puppy chow like a good little bitch. BTW: How is life in Russia with yer best bud Putz? Hope your sex change operation worked out well for ya. Did Putz make you head of propaganda? Your arms must weary of heaving buckets of shite.

heavyblinker -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 3:24:47 AM)
Right, I should be an illiterate fucking loser like you... then I will be free. Stop trying to converse with people who are smarter than you... you can't do it properly.

Chaska -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 4:13:51 AM)
Seems I skewered a nerve but, you really told me off. [sm=happy-smiley58.gif] Run along to your safe space you over emotional drama queen.

heavyblinker -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:12:18 AM)
I'm not being emotional, just honest. Nobody who expresses themselves as you do could possibly be the least bit intelligent. It's not really a big deal to say that I'm smarter than you. Bosco is smarter than you too. So are rocks. The first post I've seen you make is a series of tired RWNJ clichés expressed in the most obnoxious way possible, and you don't even realize they're irrelevant because they're all you know how to say. You're basically generic RWNJ troll #23578. Anyways, that's all the time I'm going to spend on you.

InfoMan -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:33:38 AM)
I find it funny that in showing your political stance, you have expressly shown that you lack any real deliberative element which the OP was talking about in the first place.

heavyblinker -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:53:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InfoMan I find it funny that in showing your political stance, you have expressly shown that you lack any real deliberative element which the OP was talking about in the first place. I deliberate considerably more than someone who sits back and says 'this is a bunch of BULLSHIT and anyone who participates is a SHEEP'. Where's the deliberation in that? It's just lazy. I'm the only person in this entire thread who has even bothered to offer an explanation as to why they vote how they do, who has even shown a glimmer of rational thought existing behind their political choices. Is there a rift between how I vote and what I believe? Yes... but the idea that simply voting a certain way makes me mindlessly partisan is retarded. It's called 'accepting reality'. That's my logic, that's my reasoning. Feel free to disagree or point out the errors, but don't come on here and tell me I'm not using my head. I guarantee I'm using it a lot more than that retard who just flamed me with all of those tired, boring, painfully stupid cliches. If you seriously think you're going to change the system by whining on a fucking internet forum about how everyone else is a slave and then not voting, you're an idiot. Your lack of a vote isn't screwing the system, isn't bringing anything down, isn't a type of protest-- it's you resigning yourself to powerlessness. The only thing worse than not voting is voting for a con man like Trump. If the other parties managed to come up with a candidate who was viable, or if the GOP managed to come up with a candidate who didn't think global warming was caused by magic or whatever, then I might give them a shot.

Chaska -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:56:31 AM)
But, he is smarted then anyone else. [8\|] And a mind reader since I've not expressed a party affiliation, not mention clairvoyant.

catize -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:58:22 AM)
quote: In a deliberatiive democracy, elected officials were supposed to use logic and reason, rather than base their decisions on a power struggle. The old white guys currently in power are demonstrating this so very well............[8D]

WickedsDesire -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 8:21:28 AM)
New Chemical element Trumperium discovered Obeys no known laws of the Universe Has no central nucleus and a random electron movement patterns Is resistant to observation Emanates tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors when stressed Ultimately destructive to its environment They had also detected but as of yet had insufficient evidence that super massive black holes capable of swallowing entire solar systems emanated from this element. The preliminary name for this yet to be discovered phenomena was a "Trumphole". I couldnt be bothered writing my own one

Musicmystery -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 8:23:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: In a deliberatiive democracy, elected officials were supposed to use logic and reason, rather than base their decisions on a power struggle. The old white guys currently in power are demonstrating this so very well............[8D] Voters are supposed to as well. How's that working out? And women outnumber men.

Yarashii1 -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 9:38:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka Aristotle felt that women were less than men because they lacked 'the deliberative element'. Women were not able to use logic and reason to make decisions as men were. In a deliberatiive democracy, elected officials were supposed to use logic and reason, rather than base their decisions on a power struggle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberation Do you think men are de-volving? Are women evolving? I was trying to see where in this string to comment but I'm not sure the posters are going down the road you were trying to lead us on. So I came to the source. Informed (and thus informative). Arguments should be supported by appropriate and reasonably accurate factual claims. Balanced. Arguments should be met by contrary arguments. Conscientious. The participants should be willing to talk and listen, with civility and respect. Substantive. Arguments should be considered sincerely on their merits, not on how they are made or by who is making them. Comprehensive. All points of view held by significant portions of the population should receive attention. - Wikipedia (components of deliberation in a deliberative democracy) Aristotle was brilliant but he wasn't right about everything even back then. You could say the accepted gender roles we have come to know were spawned by his beliefs. If you agree that women are more apt to rely on emotional reasoning rather than logical reasoning, you would have to consider that it may be because of societal conditioning more so than any mental or physical difference to men. That is to say that mental (and emotional) development has more to do with nurture than nature. An amusing question would be "is modern society this way because of Aristotle's teaching or is it inherent to who we are on a physiological level?" Of all forms of democracy, I find deliberative democracy the most utopian. If we are defining evolution to be the movement toward structured/rational/scientific thought, then you are correct that men (at least in the western cultures) are becoming de-evolved as women are becoming evolved. In Aristotle's time, strict gender roles and a strong caste system were foundations for the societal structure. That is not the case anymore. Society (for better or worse) is moving toward a "oneness". Obviously we are not there yet, still, today, men who are not rational are considered to be less 'manly' and women who are rational is said to 'think like a man'......society.

vincentML -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 3:57:47 PM)
Hello. . . we welcome your contributions, happy to have you aboard. Your writing is concise and informative. quote: If we are defining evolution to be If we are defining evolution to be the movement toward structured/rational/scientific thought, then you are correct that men (at least in the western cultures) are becoming de-evolved as women are becoming evolved., then you are correct that men (at least in the western cultures) are becoming de-evolved as women are becoming evolved. I presume you are speaking of social evolution and not Darwinian adaptation. I cannot agree to your premise quoted above. Where is the evidence? At least, what are the rationals for your conclusions? Confining the issue to the Western democracies (to avoid the multicultural shitstorm) there seems to be little in our recent history to support the movement toward structured/rational/scientific thought At the least, I don't see what you see. By body count the 20th Century was the deadliest man-made catastrophe in history and the 21st Century does not seem to offer any respite from emotional based tribal savagery. However, similar armed devastation preceded the 20th C, so I don't see how you can argue that men are any less structured and rational in their thinking. Superstition and religious thinking have not changed much the past millennium or so. Man's quota of rationality remains unchanged in that field. And yet the scientific enterprise has indeed become more successful lately (not necessarily less deadly) so that may score for the participation of men in more structured thinking. Finally, I don't see the basis for parsing out a growing rational structure among the thinking of females. I would welcome a clarification of your thoughts.

Yarashii1 -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/19/2017 6:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Hello. . . we welcome your contributions, happy to have you aboard. Your writing is concise and informative. quote: If we are defining evolution to be If we are defining evolution to be the movement toward structured/rational/scientific thought, then you are correct that men (at least in the western cultures) are becoming de-evolved as women are becoming evolved., then you are correct that men (at least in the western cultures) are becoming de-evolved as women are becoming evolved. I presume you are speaking of social evolution and not Darwinian adaptation. I cannot agree to your premise quoted above. Where is the evidence? At least, what are the rationals for your conclusions? Confining the issue to the Western democracies (to avoid the multicultural shitstorm) there seems to be little in our recent history to support the movement toward structured/rational/scientific thought At the least, I don't see what you see. By body count the 20th Century was the deadliest man-made catastrophe in history and the 21st Century does not seem to offer any respite from emotional based tribal savagery. However, similar armed devastation preceded the 20th C, so I don't see how you can argue that men are any less structured and rational in their thinking. Superstition and religious thinking have not changed much the past millennium or so. Man's quota of rationality remains unchanged in that field. And yet the scientific enterprise has indeed become more successful lately (not necessarily less deadly) so that may score for the participation of men in more structured thinking. Finally, I don't see the basis for parsing out a growing rational structure among the thinking of females. I would welcome a clarification of your thoughts. Thanks, I am still working on the conciseness and I was speaking of social evolution. I was considering Americans on a smaller scale. There was a time, not long ago, that men were to keep emotions out of there everyday machinations. Remember when sayings like "boys will be boys" and "be a man about it" referred to clear gender roles and expectations rather than being fodder for gender (in)equality arguments. In modern attempts to negate the lines between genders, there is nothing sacred to only men or women. This is reflected in our language, military, sports, employment, and (more on point with our OP) education/thought. War is one of those things that people will find justification for rather that justification is logical or emotional is what speaks to the timbre of society. "Stop the spread of communism" is much more rational than "this is the guy that tried to kill my dad". As I watched the towers fall, I wasn't scared or worried. I was saddened by the countless thousands we were going to kill as a result. We are a country of passion. That used to be seen as a weakness. Now that men are embracing passionate thought, it is now seen to be a sign of strength.

Real0ne -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/20/2017 7:35:31 AM)
one only need look as far as the board pantie shitters for a prime example of todays 'rational' politics, no real surprise americans are so easily led by the nose to their oen unwitting demise.

vincentML -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/20/2017 9:44:56 AM)
quote: I was considering Americans on a smaller scale. There was a time, not long ago, that men were to keep emotions out of there everyday machinations. Remember when sayings like "boys will be boys" and "be a man about it" referred to clear gender roles and expectations rather than being fodder for gender (in)equality arguments. In modern attempts to negate the lines between genders, there is nothing sacred to only men or women. This is reflected in our language, military, sports, employment, and (more on point with our OP) education/thought. War is one of those things that people will find justification for rather that justification is logical or emotional is what speaks to the timbre of society. "Stop the spread of communism" is much more rational than "this is the guy that tried to kill my dad". As I watched the towers fall, I wasn't scared or worried. I was saddened by the countless thousands we were going to kill as a result. We are a country of passion. That used to be seen as a weakness. Now that men are embracing passionate thought, it is now seen to be a sign of strength. I read the OP in a larger, sociological context in which I doubt that we have ever been a "deliberative democracy" and I see no reason to believe that women are evolving socially toward that state than men are devolving from it. Civic governance has always emerged from the clash of opposing passions and desires. I don't see that contemporary women proceed by any greater deliberation than do men. Our civic electoral processes are still marked by passion rousing rallies, slogans, and emblems whose goals are to circumvent reason. The successful commitment to war is the most salient demonstration of the process of non-deliberative decision making. Persuasion depends upon exaggeration of our innocence and our opponent's evil culpability, so much so that we have arrived at a point where Congress has defaulted on its war powers and we are left in an endless Administrative war. Only the reasons change, and they remain unexamined except by a small minority whose voices are drowned away by the drums and horns of propaganda. Everything is irrational symbolism, as it always has been. I am not even sure our participation in WW2 can be justified as a reasonable act. What would we have done if unprovoked? And what were the reasons for provoking us? Clearly, the Japanese did not think they could win a long war. They bet everything on a quick and crippling strike and lost the honorable farm. I would suggest that "deliberative democracy" is a faux blanket that covers irrational power struggles; we are neither evolving nor devolving, just stuck running in place.

MrRodgers -> RE: The Deliberative Element (5/20/2017 9:48:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InfoMan Pure Democracy - as you may or may not know - is the most evil thing on the planet. I doubt that and you should too unless you firmly and mistakingly believe that 'pure' democracy is mob rule which is not far from anarchy. I don't think it does. The most evil govts. yet produced is the complete police state such as Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Thost govts. own you. Too many of our founders thought such a democracy could produce mob rule, so they put in protections for the minority to protect them from the 'tyranny of the majority' but then even after recognizing that even that minority could produce faction and that faction is what brought down Greece and Rome...failed to protect society against that. The US now suffers from that faction created by the minority and if allowed to continue...will bring the US down too. Oh and this has nothing to do with any sexual proclivities one way or the other.

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