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Democracy vs. Prosperity


Democracy
  62% (5)
Prosperity
  37% (3)


Total Votes : 8
(last vote on : 5/31/2017 1:44:59 AM)
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RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 4:57:45 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
And they were in the middle of a civil war.

I'd say it was ISIS versus Gaddafi in that civil war, and The lefties backed ISIS in that war!

Should've helped Gaddafi get everything under control. And Nato was involved in Iraq too ya know? Many European countries had their military help out in that war. It doesn't make the US less responsible as they are the ones leading it.

I will never understand why specifically for Gaddafi, that they didn't allow the the eldest son to hold the fair elections he wanted. He proposed to Obama, basically a plead to Obama to over see and be the middle man to hold and over see a fair democratic election in Libya to settle this civil war. And if majority didn't vote the Gaddafi family back into the rule, they would respect the outcome.

Nope, Obama didn't want to do that. That would have been the better way.

To me Gaddafi Eldest son lived most of his life in UK and learnt alot about modern democracy and was modern. But then he had to go back and support his father in this whole civil war thing. But they backed the terrorist and they allowed whatever court they held to put him to death.

That is a tragedy! And wasted opportunity to genuinely do what they Bush was trying to achieve in Iraq, bring democracy to them.

I just never support left leaning politics because I always feel like their decisions are more emotional than pragmatic. They wanted to take down the whole of Gaddafi family. That was the focus. Doesn't matter that they actually did good for their people and country bringing them to new heights.

If you look at the pile of rubbish Libya is still in right now. It's just...., crazy and horrible.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/31/2017 4:59:09 AM >

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 5:26:17 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I just never support left leaning politics because I always feel like their decisions are more emotional than pragmatic. They wanted to take down the whole of Gaddafi family. That was the focus. Doesn't matter that they actually did good for their people and country bringing them to new heights.


No, you want to believe that left-leaning politics are more emotional because you identify as right-wing and want a convenient excuse to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, the same as any other RWNJ on this board.
NATO is not Obama. France and the UK were against Gaddafi before the US became publicly involved in any way. The US senate passed a resolution before Obama got involved.

You create bizarro narratives in your head to justify your opinions, but it's glaringly obvious that you don't even bother to actually look into these things first.

It isn't the left who opposed Gaddafi-- only the far far right wingers actually supported him, mostly because they despise the establishment.
Ronald Reagan was no lefty and he imposed sanctions on Gaddafi that lasted until 2004.
Guess why?

It's because he blew up a plane.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 6:43:48 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

What does a real democracy look like?
I have never seen one.


The term's very vague, at root. It simply means rule by the people - from the two Greek words 'demos' meaning whole citizenry living within a particular city-state and 'kratos', meaning 'power, or 'rule'. A lot of terms in politics can't really be understood without referring to their antonyms, for good reason that they only came into being in opposition to something that fallen out of favour - in this case, 'aristocracy'.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=democracy+greek+roots&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=A8kuWaLTI4bW8AeU1o-gCw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

That said, everything thereafter can become a minefield. When Jean-Jacques Rousseau articulated his idea of 'the General Will' in 'The Social Contract', it seemed iron-clad that, henceforth, the people in general should rule, rather than just one person (a king or queen) or just an elite. But the idea was easily moulded to suit - turned into a monster, some say. Hence, one party (or even one person) can end up claiming that it, and it alone, represents 'The Will of the People' - by virtue of his/her/its unique wisdom, for instance. This is how some of the most authoritarian regimes in the world have claimed that they're 'democratic'. Given the right spin, it need have nothing at all to do with what westerners assume 'democracy' must entail - free and fair elections, governments made up of the people for whom a majority voted, etc, etc.

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(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 8:07:39 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
Ronald Reagan was no lefty and he imposed sanctions on Gaddafi that lasted until 2004.
Guess why?

It's because he blew up a plane.

Sanctions was fine. Despite the Sanctions, Gaddafi took care of his people and made sure they all well fed, all had homes and got access to education. As I said, they were the most successful African country when Gaddafi was taking care of his country. Unlike most other dictators like Saddam to kept all his wealth and let his people suffer. Gaddafi was actually more like a Bernie Sanders person. He shared his wealth. And used his wealth to give free homes to his people and take care of them. Before he got super rich later in life, many times he gave up comfort to share the same conditions as the people that were supporting him. As seriously, when I read Gaddafi history, he disagreed with the west. He didn't like Obama. But when it came to his own country, he was a pretty good leader who took care of his people.

Sanctions is fair enough since they alleged that he blew up a plane, which he denies. But Reagan did not go into there and pull Gaddafi out and kill him, and leave the country in a mess.

So Reagan did good!

To me, Gaddafi was a good leader because he took care of the welfare of his own people. But part of taking care of that welfare might have stepped on other people's toes.

There is this theory that US wanted Gaddafi dead at all cost because he was gonna make all the oil countries agree to only trading oil with gold instead of money. And that will cause oil prices to inflate like crazy in the US with devastating effects, and the other middle eastern oil countries were quite interested in his idea. US killed him to protect their own country. But he did everything he could to make sure his own citizen lead good lives. That to me, is a good leader.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/31/2017 8:08:53 AM >

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 8:11:24 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No, he gave WMD to Iran, let terrorists blow up 241 marines, while he shat his pants.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 8:16:37 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, he gave WMD to Iran, let terrorists blow up 241 marines, while he shat his pants.

It's totally possible Gaddafi was involved death of American soldiers because he didn't see the US as his friend. But doesn't mean US should go and take him out of his own country when he was taking good care of his country.

I mean, HELLO, China murdered like 40 US citizens in their country last year! Just for being accused of spying whether justified or not. China is just as brutal. I mean in China if you are accused of aiding a spy of US or anything remotely connected to it. There is no trial. They come take you and you disappear and are never seen again. They do that to businessmen who defy the government too. But they are too big to take down.

Gaddafi was a small fly. Libya a small place.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/31/2017 8:19:46 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 8:19:32 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		they didnt. they enforced a un resolution with nato and created a no-fly zone and blew up military materiel.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Democracy vs. Prosperity - 5/31/2017 8:27:23 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

they didnt. they enforced a un resolution with nato and created a no-fly zone and blew up military materiel.

I tell ya, there was so much dodginess going on in Libya. US did the same shit they did with Syria. Back the rebels to create trouble. Look at Syria. Look at Libya. It's like the same damn history! Except Syria government has Russia on their side, so it was more difficult to do what they did to Gaddafi. I think if they could, they would have gone in and murdered the guy too.

US basically trains the rebels and arms them and guides them to do all that.

And ya know what? That Manchester bombing kid was Libyan and ISIS and had all his terrorist training in Libya with ISIS in Libya. It's like no fucking wonder, almost like as I said, Muslims love the whole vengeance thing. It's like the whole thing is biting them back on the ass. They wanted to get rid of Gaddafi who was keeping ISIS at bay. Now they make Libya a haven for ISIS over run it and to grow stronger and bigger to plan stupid bombings like Manchester!

And the target was the concert of a American Singer. The big word, AMERICAN!

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 28
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