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kkaliforniaa -> RE: What would the world look like (6/3/2017 8:38:07 AM)
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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
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ORIGINAL: MsLadySue
Why is this being discussed in a BSDM forum? It's all fantasy anyway.
Maybe the OP missed that there's a Gorean forum for this stuff?
As the OP originally mentioned, "While the topic is about Gorean stuff, I am not interested in the how tos and all that, thus I put it in General BDSM discussion so it gets a little more traffic and allows responses from both sides of the fence.". By posting in the Gorean forums I'd probably wind up with many people who believe that because you're male, any and all women should be honored to submit to you, to be seen and not heard, available for sex even if she isn't in the mood, etc.
In regards to Gor not being male dominated.. Uh huh. Uh huh. Sure, while only 2-3% of women may be slaves, explain this. So in the following quote we have Free Women are not ALLOWED to be full doctors until they've given birth to TWO children [Fighting slave of Gor, Page 209, 210]. If you're male then rush to the front of the line!! Second, if Free Women are frigid [as discussed later] [let's use the medical definition from Merriam-Webster, "lacking sexual desire"], how exactly do you propose they give birth to these children. I'm going with consensual rape. I don't want to have sex [and probably don't want to have children], but I want nothing more than to become a Doctor, so I'll give in to these archaic, patriarchal laws and lay back and think of England. So in a world that is "not" male dominant, her own government failed her! And who says you can't [legally] rape a Free Woman. Guess it's all in the eye of the beholder and wearing rose colored glasses.. Next, teaching the children. As mentioned in a previous post, Free Women are expected to educate children [etc etc]. So, that's SEVENTEEN OR MORE YEARS taken away from a "FREE WOMAN" just because she wants to become a Doctor!! Right. Not male dominated at all!! This strengthens the argument of there is no such thing as a "Free Woman".
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Women also engage in work in the Physician's Caste. But, there is a common limitation on such women. They cannot engage in the full practice of medicine until they have first given birth to two children. It is likely their function before birthing the requisite children might be akin to being a nurse. In many cities, at age fifteen, a woman of the Physician's Caste will be given two bracelets to wear. She can remove one bracelet each time she has a child. When she has removed both bracelets, she may then practice medicine as a full Physician.
http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id26.htm
While plenty of quotes have been included discussing how Free Women are [simply put] highly respected by men, here are some quotes or interpretations to suggest otherwise.
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“A Free Woman does not learn overnight how to behave. She learns from childhood. The Gorean girl is, even if free, accustomed to slavery; she will perhaps own one or more slaves herself; she knows that she is weaker than men and what this can mean; she knows that cities fall and caravans are plundered; she knows she might even, by a sufficiently bold warrior, be captured in her own quarters and, bound and hooded, be carried on tarn back over the walls of her own city. Moreover, even if she is never enslaved, she is familiar with the duties of slaves and what is expected of them; if she should be enslaves she will know, on the whole, what is expected of her, what is permitted her and what is not; moreover, the Gorean girl is literally educated, fortunately or not, to the notion that it is of great importance to know how to please men; accordingly, even girls who will be free companions, and never slaves, learn the preparations of serving of exotic dishes, the arts of walking, and standing and being beautiful, the care of a man’s equipment, the love dances of their city, and so on.” Nomads of Gor, page 63
https://lunacaleengpanthers.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/about-free-women-of-gor-their-attitudes-and-actions/
If anything the method of "respect" is more in line of treating Free Women like porcelain dolls. That isn't respect, that's patronizing.. Also, it seems like women are trained for slavery just in case it ever happens, how is that not slavery [living in fear of becoming a slave]. There may only be 2-3% working slaves, but if you factor in psychology, and those who have escaped, I'm sure it would be much higher.
The following are quotes and interpretations supporting the ideas of "male dominated society" and "Free Women, despite quotes to suggest otherwise, aren't respected". Also, if Free Women aren't allowed to speak freely, even if arrogantly [hypothetical example. Two doctors, one male, one Free Woman. The male THINKS the patient has [condition], while the Free Woman KNOWS that it's [disease]. She has proof to back up her belief, but.. Since she's female and women aren't respected, she can be accused of being arrogant], in what universe would slaves be allowed such liberties that Free Women aren't.
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First, the rhetoric in much of the books states that all women should be slaves. Second, a cursory reading of the novels shows that basically all of the major free women characters, who are often haughty [arrogantly superior and disdainful], end up as slaves.
But, many men find free women boring, preferring the company of slave girls. Free women are seen to be ignorant, arrogant and frigid. Yet, free man often will take no action against a free woman who annoys them. "A free woman may often make a man angry with impunity, she being lofty and free, this latitude is seldom extended to the slave." (Blood Brothers of Gor, p.221) A male relative or a Free Companion of a free woman does have some options to discipline her. The punishment will fit the woman's status and dignity. The books do contradict themselves as to whether free woman may be whipped or not. If so, they are whipped differently from a slave, much easier. A Free Companion might chain his woman to his couch, like a slave. This may occur even though a free woman is muchly loved.
"It is not difficult, of course, to take insolence from a woman." (Mercenaries of Gor, p.7) Many Gorean men will just laugh off a woman's insults.
"Women, seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naïve institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur." (Players of Gor, p.288) But, this is a generality for which there are a number of exceptions. A free woman of superior ability can achieve much, including ruling a city. That is fully supported by the philosophies of Gor.
http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id26.htm
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"Frigidity is a neurotic luxury," I told her. "It is allowed only to free women, probably because no one cares that much about them. Indeed, frigidity is one of the titles and permissions implicated in the lofty status of a free woman. For many it is, in effect, their proudest possession. It distinguishes them from the lowly slave girl." Beasts of Gor - Pg. 243
http://turia.weebly.com/gorean-free-women.html
Proof that Free Women aren't immune from punishment, and "all women are slaves"
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"This harsh treatment, incidentally, when she is thought to deserve it, may even be inflicted on a Free Companion, in spite of the fact that she is free
and usually much loved. According to the Gorean way of looking at things a taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women,
even the exalted Free Companions.
Thus when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome even a Free Companion may find herself at the foot of the couch looking forward to a
pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither mat nor blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl.
It is the Gorean way of reminding her, should she need to be reminded, that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.
Should she be tempted to forget this basic fact of Gorean life the slave ring set in the bottom of each Gorean couch is there to refresh her memory. Gor
is a man's world." Priest-Kings of Gor, page 67-68
"It is a joke," she said. "He has captured a free female. We will put her stripped back in one of the tunnel alcoves. Her wrists will be braceleted behind
her, chained to a slave ring. She will be unable to speak, being perfectly gagged. She will be left there in the darkness, helpless."
"But she might be used." I said.
"It is not imporssible,' she said. "It is a matter of chance. Access to her will be unrestricted as that to a slave."
"Do you approve of such things?" I asked.
"If she is a feminine female," she said, "Of course. Such belong to men."
"It is a splendid joke," she said.
"What is done with them later?" I asked.
"Nothing,' she said."We just put them out naked in the back, in the morning. It they have been used, however, we tie their hands behind their back
and, on a cord about their waist, suspend a punched tarsk bit n their belly."
"Why would someone do this sort of thing to a free women?" I asked.
"Perhaps they found her displeasing in some way," she said. "And thought it might do her a bit of good, to discover something about what it is to be a
female." Mercenaries of Gor, pave 314-315
http://www.womanofgor.com/FWpunishmentlessons.html
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"You are no true man!' she said.
I then stood up before her. She looked up at me, puzzled, I then after regarding her for a time, suddenly, with the back of my hand, struck her fiercely
back from the mat, she twisting and falling back, flung to the side from her knees, almost half on her feet for an instant, then losing her balance, then
falling back into the trash at the side of the wall. She, from the midst of the garbage, half on her side, looked at me wildly, her hand at her mouth,
blood between her fingers.
I pointed to the mat. 'Here," I said. "Kneel."
She hasted back t the mat and knelt before me. She looked up at me in wonder, blood at her mouth. She had been cuffed. "Did you strike be because
I challenged you manhood?" she asked. 'I did not really mean it. It is only that I was terribly angry, I did not think."
"You were not struck for such an absurd reason," I said. "You are, after all, a free woman, and free women are entitled to insult, and to attempt to
demean and destroy men. It is one of their freedoms, unless men, of course, should decide to take it from them. You were struck, rather, because you
were attempting to manipulate me."
Ashe nodded, putting her head down.
"Do you recognize your guilt, and the suitability of your punishment?" I asked.
"Yes," she said.
Mercenaries of Gor, page 422
http://www.womanofgor.com/FW-and-men.html
As for the criticism of the "Free Companioned Free Woman is so similar to a collared slave" quote,
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-The general freedom of a free woman is closely tied to each particular city. Ko-ro-ba may be the Gorean city that accords the most personal freedom to free women and Tharna, after its revolution, may be the most repressive. For example, in Tharna, free women who visit must temporarily wear a collar, slave tunic and leash. The other cities of Gor fall somewhere in between this spectrum.
-In some cities, free women are not permitted to leave their homes without the permission of a male relative or their Free Companion. In addition, some cities permit their women only to speak to blood relatives.
-When sitting, free women kneel in what would be considered almost a tower slave position. Their hands though lie on their thighs, palms down. Free women maintain good posture while kneeling. Free women do not sit cross-legged as that is only for men. It is considered an insult to men for women to sit cross-legged.
[image]http://www.rosecoloredasses.com/sirreal/images/tower.jpg[/image]
-In general free women are seen as frigid and sexually repressed. Many know little about sex and see it more as a duty and a chore rather than as a matter of mutual pleasure. This frigidity is considered acceptable for free woman though slaves are not permitted that quality. Men are commonly disappointed by this frigidity, especially if they have experienced the wanton sexuality of a slave. It generally takes from a third to a quarter of an Ahn, 18 to 24 minutes, to arouse a free woman to orgasm. Some free women are proud of their frigidity. They consider it important to show how different they are from slaves. Other free women seek to change that aspect of themselves and learn how to be more sexually responsive. Physicians commonly tell free women who seek advice on changing their frigidity to learn slave dancing. Most consider it appropriate though that free women remain ignorant of the sexuality of the slave.
"An unowned girl, a free woman, thus, can never experience her full sexuality. Passion, it is thought, deprives the free woman to some extent of her freedom and important self-control; it is frowned upon because it makes her behave, to some extent, like a degraded female slave; free women, thus, to protect their honor and dignity, their freedom and personhood, their individuality, must fight passion; the free woman must remain cool and in control of herself, even in the arms of her companion, to avoid being truly 'had'." (Tribesman of Gor, p.17)
The Gorean novels are filled with much rhetoric concerning beliefs about free women. Many of these sayings allege that all women are natural slaves. Most of these sayings are not mentioned in the presence of free women though. They are what men say when they get together to discuss women.
"Every woman in her heart wants to wear the chains of a man." (Priest-Kings of Gor, p.204)
"The institution of freedom for women, I decided, as many Goreans believed, was a mistake." (Nomads of Gor, p.286)
"the garments of a free woman are designed to conceal a woman's slavery" (Rogue of Gor, p.276)
"On Gor it is said that free women are slaves who have not yet been collared." (Magicians of Gor, p.22)
"A Gorean saying came to mind, that the free woman is a riddle, the answer to which is the collar." (Magicians of Gor, p.50)
http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id26.htm
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"But Goreans believe, of course, that any woman, properly handled, becomes an excellent slave." Dancers of Gor, page 225 http://wantonkajira.angelfire.com/fw_capture.html
Debunking some of the rhetoric:
"Every woman in her heart wants to wear the chains of a man." versus "Passion.. is frowned upon because it makes her behave like a degraded female slave"
"The institution of freedom for women, I decided, as many Goreans believed, was a mistake." versus traditional gender roles where women are only useful for 1. bearing children 2. sex
"On Gor it is said that free women are slaves who have not yet been collared." versus "Physicians commonly tell free women who seek advice on changing their frigidity to learn slave dancing."
You have traditions where Free Women have to don the collar, are punished like slaves, position themselves like slaves.. How is not even being allowed to leave the house not slavery?.. Not repressing their sexuality, lest they "court the collar".. While I haven't provided a quote for it, there are also seduction slaves which are used by some owners/slavers to trap free women. All it would take is the appearance of a Free Woman about to have sex with a slave she doesn't own and she becomes a slave herself! If there isn't a trial, allowing her a chance to defend herself, how is that respectful! Not to say this is common.. Free Women are screwed if you do, screwed if you don't ["courting the collar", trying to repress "urges", your companion is disappointed that you're not a slave [who isn't "allowed" to be frigid] and he has to keep having sex with his slave(s). Oh how life must be torture for a Gorean "master". Orgasms that take less than a minute with all these readily available, unwilling women..]
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"Frigidity, of course, is not accepted in slaves. If nothing else, it will be beaten out of their beautiful hides by whips." Guardsman of Gor, page 260
http://www.womanofgor.com/Freewomensexuality.html
Now for fleshy robots.. UllrsIshtar, you said so yourself, "slaves have no rights" [which would include the right to speak]. How is this any different than a fleshy robot? Starting with the first quote, about being celebrated. I "celebrate" my house/pets, buying nice things for them [etc], does that mean they're anything other than a house/pet? Like the end of the quote indicates, "fearing she is to be soon sold". Slaves are "celebrated" because 1. would you rather see a slave in a burlap sack or fine silks? 2. you want a well behaved slave, treat them well. So, slaves are commodities.. "should such an anniversary be forgotten, should it be such that it is commonly celebrated, the girl redoubles her efforts to please" suggests Stockholm Syndrome, which isn't authentic love.. ..
Regarding commodities,
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"Gorean men, on the whole, do not free slaves. The freeing of a girl is almost unheard of. This makes sense. They are not free women. They are belongings, valuables, slaves, treasures. Who discards precious possessions, who surrenders treasures? If the slave girl were worth less perhaps she would be freed more. She is too marvelous to free; and if she is not marvelous, she can be slain. Too, what man who has known the glory and joy of a girl at his feet is likely to wish to exchange that for the inconvenience and bother of a free woman? No, slave girls, for all practical purposes, are not freed. They will remain in one collar or another. Men will have it that way." Explorers of Gor, Book 13, Page 90
https://www.thegoreancave.com/quotes/ownership.php?offset=
As for conversing with a slave,
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What became of the Earth girls whom you owned before me, Master?” I asked.
“Was a slave given permission to speak?” he asked.
“Forgive me, Master,” I said. “May a slave speak?”
“Yes,” he said. ~SlaveGirl of Gor, pg 177~
https://tcotdo.wordpress.com/basic/
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"You may now be slain for as little as an irritable word, or for being in the least displeasing. Indeed, you may be slain upon the mere whim of a master, should it please him." Beasts of Gor, Book 12, Page 119
http://thegoreancave.com/questions/questions.php?offset=300&requested_no=132
Conversations generally don't require needing permission. Plus, what happens if the slave says something the "master" doesn't like [etc] [Oh the horror of being the bearer of bad news. "Master, we ran out of milk" *and that's the last you heard of her*]. If someone is only allowed to say what you want them to say that's not a conversation [or argument], that's talking to a wall. And refer to previous quotes and interpretations that suggest Free Women who behave arrogantly are punished, and they [supposedly] have rights. Certainly doesn't seem like behavior for a real Man/Master to storm off in a fit, or punish, because someone said something they didn't agree with.
How can you expect a REAL relationship if they're behaving the way you want them to because of self-preservation
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"Do masters ever love their slaves?" she asked.
I love my cat/dog/etc, but why do I love them? If all of a sudden they stopped doing tricks I've trained them to do would I love them any less? Would a Gorean "master" still LOVE his slave if she misbehaved or even ran away.. I also love my "Prada handbag", etc, so how do these differ from that of the love mentioned in that quote. "masters" "love" their slaves because of sex and or how the slave treats the "master". How can you expect a REAL relationship if slaves are behaving the way you want them to because of self-preservation.
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“is natural for a slave girl, of course, to regard her master with a certain trepidation. She is after all, an animal, who is owned by him, over whom he has total power. The rational slave girl, will almost never intentionally displease her master. First, it is just to costly to do so.” ~ Savages of Gor, Pg. 140~
"If they did not obey, they would be slain. As slaves, they were commanded; as slaves, did they fail to comply, they would be put to death. They had no choice. They would obey.” ~Marauders of Gor, Pg. 245
"It is well for a slave to fear her master” Page 143 – Dancer of Gor
"The slave is totally subject to the master in all ways, and in all things. She is his to do with as he pleases. She depends on him for her food and the merest scrap of her clothing, if any. She is subject, completely, to his discipline, to his abuse and his whip. She is owned, like a sandal or saddle. She may be slain even on a whim, if her master wishes." Blood Brothers of Gor.
https://tcotdo.wordpress.com/basic/
Consider this. a Gorean slave and a vanilla wife are both asked to pick milk up from the market, but both forget. The Gorean slave would be punished while the vanilla husband would say something [sincerely] like, "I'll pick some up tomorrow". If you have to punish the person you "love" how is that love?
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Love makes a woman a man's slave
Wait! So men are allowed to "love" women/slaves, but only WOMEN are slaves to men?! [mind you, this is from another quote suggesting Stockholm Syndrome rather than authentic love].. So. How is a Gorean slave any different than a fleshy robot?
One man created a robot that, while limited, responds to his commands..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/female-robots-why-this-scarlett-johansson-bot-is-more-dangerous/
"Shakey the robot was the first general-purpose mobile robot to be able to reason about its own actions. While other robots would have to be instructed on each individual step of completing a larger task, Shakey could analyze commands and break them down into basic chunks by itself." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakey_the_robot
And, while these are fictional, a very likely scenario in the near future, let's throw in the TV show, Humans [based on SVT's TV show Real Humans]. [from the description for Real Humans, at Wikipedia] "The story takes place in a version of present-day Sweden where the use of androids is commonplace. The androids, known as hubots, function as servants, workers, companions, and even illicitly as sexual partners, with different models having specific features designed for their distinctive roles.. Hubots are usually programmed to recognise and obey their owner and can learn skills and pick up knowledge through observation of humans.. Hubots are also programmed to be docile. They obey a set of rules called "Asimov" protocols that prevent them from harming humans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Humans
Also. While the following refers to real world situations and online role playing, if we refer back to the books, if the main duty of the slave is to make her "master" happy [which would be in her best interest, lest punishment].. ..
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I would say that “Lifestyle” Gor is a manipulative environment, and for a long time in both Gor practice and Gor in SL, lifestyle was pretty much all there was. One could say that a Hostage who after being kidnapped for a long period of time, defends their kidnapper is a “consensual” choice, but in psychology they call it “Stockholm Syndrome”. Now I’m not saying that all Gorean slaves have Stockholm Syndrome, what I am saying that psychology can have a strong effect on choice.
http://alphavilleherald.com/2009/05/underground-in-gor-angst-and-a-wish-for-orbital-bombardment.html
So.. With one question down, two left.
1. "is gender and racial equality unavoidable everywhere, over time, or even in cultures where everyone is educated with the same lessons, one [or more] demographics will always be viewed as less than the ruling class?" [although in Gor I may have been wrong about all free people receiving the same education]
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Most slaves are illiterate as most men do not want them to learn. They are kept deliberately ignorant to enhance their helplessness. But, literacy does increase the value of a slave.
http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id22.htm
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"Many Goreans, particularly of the lower castes, and some of the Warriors, a high caste, cannot read. Literacy is accepted in the lower castes, but not encouraged. There are Peasants who have never seen a written word. Some Warriors take pride in their inability to read, regarding that skill as unworthy of them, as being more appropriate to record keepers, tradesmen, clerks, and such, and some who can read take pains to conceal the fact. Swords, not words, rule cities, it is said. And some Goreans feel that reading is appropriate only for the less successful, those too poor to have their reading done for them, their letters written for them, and such. Slaves, unless formerly of high caste, are often illiterate. And barbarian slaves are seldom taught to read. This produces the anomaly that many barbarian slaves, who are generally of high intelligence, will be literate in one or more of the barbarian languages, but illiterate in Gorean. Indeed, they are often kept so, deliberately, that they may be all the more helpless, as slaves, and know themselves all the better as mere slaves." Mariners of Gor, Book 30, Page 516
https://www.thegoreancave.com/castes/scribes.php?offset=
2. Are Gorean slaves basically fleshy robots? [while I have provided many quotes and interpretations suggesting they are, as I've said, I haven't read the books, don't claim to be Gorean, etc. So perhaps someone more involved can provide insight.. Not everything can be resolved in just one response]
As for a lifetime in one position, such as she-sleen, I don't know why any person would keep someone in such a position for their entire life, ask Anne Rice [sure, they may not have been in said positions for their entire life, and is a different line of books from Norman.. ..].. But you do have to remember that there are people who think "this is cool so I'll do it", not even recognizing the consequences [physically, mentally, legally].. Plus, if you don't ask the questions then you won't know the answers. So now I, and others, have a reference stating that long term use of such positions is extremely rare [better to have it at 1% rather than 0% because of the "anything is possible" rule]
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