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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 11:45:07 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline 		Well, I guess I found the source of your quotes:

http://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hicks-ep-ch1.pdf

His name is Stephen Hicks, and he's a right-wing philosophy professor at Rockford University.
Maybe the reason that postmodernism is left wing is because right-wingers tend to fail at being intellectuals?

It doesn't take a genius to say that science is wrong, people should keep what they've 'earned' and 'libruls r stoopid'

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 11:55:43 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Since when is postmodernism a leftist thing?


It isn't. One of the things it got into trouble over was questioning the objective reality of the Holocaust. Unfortunately, RM's use of the term is about as accurate as his use of 'feminism' and 'left wing'.

quote:

Your not being honest.



Really? Try googling 'right wing postmodernism'.

quote:

Contemporary postmodernist a cite Rorty, Foucault, Lyotard, and Derrida. Those figures cite Martin Heidegger, Ludwig Wittgen- stein, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Karl Marx.


Are all these people left wing, as far as you're concerned?

Nnanji, you don't know what you're talking about. Give it a rest.




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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 12:01:51 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Since when is postmodernism a leftist thing?


It isn't. One of the things it got into trouble over was questioning the objective reality of the Holocaust. Unfortunately, RM's use of the term is about as accurate as his use of 'feminism' and 'left wing'.

quote:

Your not being honest.


Really? Try googling 'right wing postmodernism'.

quote:

Contemporary postmodernist a cite Rorty, Foucault, Lyotard, and Derrida. Those figures cite Martin Heidegger, Ludwig Wittgen- stein, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Karl Marx.


Are all these people left wing, as far as you're concerned?

Nnanji, you don't know what you're talking about. Give it a rest.





I never said any of them were left wing. I think the only one who mentioned any of their political place was WM. I suggested some aspects of postmodern thought and then suggested who in American politics followed those thoughts. Apparently, you read something into what I said. Perhaps you'll disabuse me of my lack of knowledge by deconstructing what I said instead of just stomping your pretty little foot. This is supposed to be discussion after all.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 12:10:51 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
I think the only one who mentioned any of their political place was WM.

And I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of how the plutocrats' bitches who make up the contemporary art world don't lean to the right: I don't believe Billy Childish has quite the same cachet as Jake and Dinos Chapman or Damien Hirst, does he?

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 12:26:24 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
I think the only one who mentioned any of their political place was WM.

And I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of how the plutocrats' bitches who make up the contemporary art world don't lean to the right: I don't believe Billy Childish has quite the same cachet as Jake and Dinos Chapman or Damien Hirst, does he?

Three quick comments.

First, wait all you want. Your point was both off topic and ignit.

Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

Third, while your first post on this topic was both off topic and ignit, this post of yours was a second troll off topic.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 12:33:47 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

I'm talking about successful artists, who sell their art to right leaning collectors not bohemian wannabes with a a conviction that if they bitch loud enough about their refusal to sell out they can hide the fact that no fucker's interested in buying.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 3:41:15 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

I'm talking about successful artists, who sell their art to right leaning collectors not bohemian wannabes with a a conviction that if they bitch loud enough about their refusal to sell out they can hide the fact that no fucker's interested in buying.

Well excuse me. I guess you just be too high falutin for the San Francisco art market.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 4:00:42 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Sounds to me that it is an abstract concept and one not founded at all in the very logic and science it necessarily disregards to form a basis for the obviously abstract notion that..no objective truth exists. That's ridiculous on its face.


The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science, where all 'truth' is provisional, a hypothesis that works until a superior hypothesis is formulated and advanced. You might also like to consider the implications of Godel's Theorem in respect to your claims too. One implication is that a 'Theory of Everything' (which is akin to a notion of objective truth) is impossible - one can have a consistent explanation of the data but not a complete one, and vice versa. All (rational) explanations are therefore partial.

Well of course most all of that is wrong. Science is tested and retested and does in fact prove objective facts and many 1000's of them and...all of the time.

For example, from Godel's 'arithmetization' (whatever that means) cannot be the following:

Today, when most of us are familiar with computers and the fact that so many things can be coded by zeros and ones, the possibility of such an arithmetization is hardly surprising. (not so many things in computers...everything)

0's and 1'a in computer codes are not numbers at all and has nothing whatever to do with aritmetization at all.

The computer code are switches to represent data and switches have only two states: ON and OFF hence the term used...binary code. For just one example.

A fact is something that is postulated to have occurred or to be correct. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Science does just this all of the time and [it] arrives at verifiable truths without which mankind could not operate at all in life. We rely upon untold numbers of objective truths (facts) constantly.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 4:26:10 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

I'm talking about successful artists, who sell their art to right leaning collectors not bohemian wannabes with a a conviction that if they bitch loud enough about their refusal to sell out they can hide the fact that no fucker's interested in buying.

Well excuse me. I guess you just be too high falutin for the San Francisco art market.

The art buyers in New York have no interest in it, why should anybody else?

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 6:29:42 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

I'm talking about successful artists, who sell their art to right leaning collectors not bohemian wannabes with a a conviction that if they bitch loud enough about their refusal to sell out they can hide the fact that no fucker's interested in buying.

Well excuse me. I guess you just be too high falutin for the San Francisco art market.

The art buyers in New York have no interest in it, why should anybody else?

To be honest with you, I'd have to agree. I find most of it obvious and pedestrian.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 8:00:43 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Sounds to me that it is an abstract concept and one not founded at all in the very logic and science it necessarily disregards to form a basis for the obviously abstract notion that..no objective truth exists. That's ridiculous on its face.


The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science, where all 'truth' is provisional, a hypothesis that works until a superior hypothesis is formulated and advanced. You might also like to consider the implications of Godel's Theorem in respect to your claims too. One implication is that a 'Theory of Everything' (which is akin to a notion of objective truth) is impossible - one can have a consistent explanation of the data but not a complete one, and vice versa. All (rational) explanations are therefore partial.

Well of course most all of that is wrong. Science is tested and retested and does in fact prove objective facts and many 1000's of them and...all of the time.

For example, from Godel's 'arithmetization' (whatever that means) cannot be the following:

Today, when most of us are familiar with computers and the fact that so many things can be coded by zeros and ones, the possibility of such an arithmetization is hardly surprising. (not so many things in computers...everything)

0's and 1'a in computer codes are not numbers at all and has nothing whatever to do with aritmetization at all.

The computer code are switches to represent data and switches have only two states: ON and OFF hence the term used...binary code. For just one example.

A fact is something that is postulated to have occurred or to be correct. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Science does just this all of the time and [it] arrives at verifiable truths without which mankind could not operate at all in life. We rely upon untold numbers of objective truths (facts) constantly.

If I were you, I would demand my money back from wherever you acquired that nonsensical account of the philosophy of science and epistemology. Not a single claim of yours is accurate or up to date. It is homespun gibberish that has never graced the inside of any text seriously interested in either the philosophy of science or epistemology. And never will .... science has never produced a fact in its history and never will. Science is incapable of producing facts and if anything claims to be 'factual' then you can be certain that it isn't scientific. The best that science can produce is working hypotheses that describe the data in a non trivial fashion, to be kept until another better working hypothesis comes along.

Here is one easily accessible text that might help you improve your understanding of some of these issues:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/404575.The_Origins_of_Knowledge_and_Imagination

And when I referred to Godel's Theorem I was referring to his well known 'Incompleteness Theorem' which proves exactly what I said it proves (Note 'proves' not 'posits'). Godel's findings are considered proven - there is no dispute about the validity of his 'Incompleteness Theorem', though there is some disagreement about the extent of the implications of this work.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/9/2017 8:10:21 AM >

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 9:14:34 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Second, while I'm not going to research your off topic, ignit point, anecdotally, having spent a lot of time with a lot of Sanfrancisco Bay Area artists and their "bitches" my personal experience is that most of them would have either fainted or thrown up if they'd have known a Republican was in the same room with them.

I'm talking about successful artists, who sell their art to right leaning collectors not bohemian wannabes with a a conviction that if they bitch loud enough about their refusal to sell out they can hide the fact that no fucker's interested in buying.

Well excuse me. I guess you just be too high falutin for the San Francisco art market.

The art buyers in New York have no interest in it, why should anybody else?

To be honest with you, I'd have to agree. I find most of it obvious and pedestrian.

That's the whole point of postmodernism: a retreat from the difficult and demanding creative issues that modernism raised.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 10:51:23 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science, where all 'truth' is provisional, a hypothesis that works until a superior hypothesis is formulated and advanced.


Godel's findings are considered proven - there is no dispute about the validity of his 'Incompleteness Theorem', though there is some disagreement about the extent of the implications of this work.


If there is no objective notion of fact, then it's impossible that Godel's findings are proven.
Any interpretation indicating that they are true isn't nothing but a subjective interpretation.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 1:37:55 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		You ruin humanity do you not can i call you or anyone on this thread

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/9/2017 1:57:52 PM   
WickedsDesire


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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/10/2017 3:07:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science, where all 'truth' is provisional, a hypothesis that works until a superior hypothesis is formulated and advanced.


Godel's findings are considered proven - there is no dispute about the validity of his 'Incompleteness Theorem', though there is some disagreement about the extent of the implications of this work.


If there is no objective notion of fact, then it's impossible that Godel's findings are proven.
Any interpretation indicating that they are true isn't nothing but a subjective interpretation.
From wiki:
"Gödel's incompleteness theorems are two theorems of mathematical logic that demonstrate the inherent limitations of every formal axiomatic system containing basic arithmetic.[1] These results, published by Kurt Gödel in 1931, are important both in mathematical logic and in the philosophy of mathematics. The theorems are widely, but not universally, interpreted as showing that Hilbert's program to find a complete and consistent set of axioms for all mathematics (ie a Theory of Everything or a totalising theory) is impossible.

The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure (i.e., an algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of the natural numbers. For any such formal system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system. The second incompleteness theorem, an extension of the first, shows that the system cannot demonstrate its own consistency.

Employing a diagonal argument, Gödel's incompleteness theorems were the first of several closely related theorems on the limitations of formal systems. They were followed by Tarski's undefinability theorem on the formal undefinability of truth, Church's proof that Hilbert's Entscheidungsproblem is unsolvable, and Turing's theorem that there is no algorithm to solve the halting problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
Thus, within the principles of mathematics, paradox is part of the structure of maths and cannot be removed without violating its principles. As maths is the most rigourous and accurate language we possess, this is valid for all closed knowledge systems - all have insoluble paradoxes built into their structure.

The effect of this is that for any knowledge system, we can have a consistent but incomplete description of the data (ie theory) or we can have a complete but inconsistent explanation. Therefore all knowledge systems are partial - objective truth cannot be arrived at through a rational knowledge process. A Theory of Everything or totalising theory is impossible. Anything that describes itself as an objective fact, or as a complete and consistent description of the data developed through a scientific/mathematic method cannot be valid - it is impossible.

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