RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours?

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LaTigresse -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 8:25:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I can satisfy myself that I might strive in some way for a freedom that I think I'd like .......but I don't see ANYTHING as a right. I don't have an entitlement to anything. That just is not the way I perceive things. If there's an entitlement .....who the hell is meant to oversee those things? Life IS as it is........if we wish for certain freedoms then we shift and adjust to hopefully make them happen. Nothing , in my perception of life......is an entitlement. agirl Ahhhhhh, this is where we differ, I see many things as entitlements.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 8:27:14 AM)
quote: How many men that fought in the war of independence got a vote afterwards? Not many but the founding fathers consolidated their power. Now I wonder what that war was really about. It was about your current ability to say what you like here, to vote, to own property, to live where you like, to make as much money as you are able, to do whatever it is you want; without needed a king to grant the privilege. If the war was won by the other side in WWII would you still have the freedom you have today inclusive of considering any and all "rights" lost? If the current WWIII is won by those seeking a Muslim world would the freedom to be on this site exist? That's the whole point about fighting for all freedom. Waiting for your personal freedom worth fighting and dying for makes it a lonely and lost battle.

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 8:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I can satisfy myself that I might strive in some way for a freedom that I think I'd like .......but I don't see ANYTHING as a right. I don't have an entitlement to anything. That just is not the way I perceive things. If there's an entitlement .....who the hell is meant to oversee those things? Life IS as it is........if we wish for certain freedoms then we shift and adjust to hopefully make them happen. Nothing , in my perception of life......is an entitlement. agirl Ahhhhhh, this is where we differ, I see many things as entitlements. If you see many things as entitlements .......how do you come by that view? What or who decrees it? As my 12 yr old son said this afternoon........ *Only in the small world* Mama... At school I have the rights to all sorts of things, at home too, because it's written down or spelt out. If I'm in China, my rights won't be the same and I'm not entitled to the same* agirl

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 8:49:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: How many men that fought in the war of independence got a vote afterwards? Not many but the founding fathers consolidated their power. Now I wonder what that war was really about. It was about your current ability to say what you like here, to vote, to own property, to live where you like, to make as much money as you are able, to do whatever it is you want; without needed a king to grant the privilege. If the war was won by the other side in WWII would you still have the freedom you have today inclusive of considering any and all "rights" lost? If the current WWIII is won by those seeking a Muslim world would the freedom to be on this site exist? That's the whole point about fighting for all freedom. Waiting for your personal freedom worth fighting and dying for makes it a lonely and lost battle. You can only fight for what you think is right at the TIME.... and with what information you have, to make a decent decision, too. With the amount of global information available nowadays, there is a WHOLE lot more information to make those kinds of choices, informatively. i wouldn't like a world that was dominated by any kind of religion, be it Muslim, or any other.....not the GWB kind, nor the OBL kind........both are dangerous and frightening in their own way. agirl

meatcleaver -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 8:52:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: How many men that fought in the war of independence got a vote afterwards? Not many but the founding fathers consolidated their power. Now I wonder what that war was really about. It was about your current ability to say what you like here, to vote, to own property, to live where you like, to make as much money as you are able, to do whatever it is you want; without needed a king to grant the privilege. Not to get off topic but you could vote, say what you like and own property before the war, each state had its own democratic assembly. George III was a figure head and had no real power. It was Parliament that had power and governed. Ordinary Americans were no better off after fighting for their freedom than before but the new governing establishment was. As for dying for freedom, I have four family members that died in WWII and three in WWI. The thinking in my family when I grew up, it is the unnecessary wars that lead to the wars were freedom has to be fought for. Don't take part in the unnecessary wars and you won't promote the conditions for a war where you have to fight. A few renegade muslims can cause mayhem but they can't threaten the west's freedom. We in the west have had problems with the muslim world because we supported their dictators so we can access their oil. The seends of the muslim problem are in the west. We don't learn because we are fighting an unnecessary war now.

peterK50 -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 9:07:03 AM)
I do fight for my freedom, mostly against this administration & their fellow travelers.

Lashra -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 9:08:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy Below you will read a question Level asked me on the poll i started about freedoms you would fight for and my response, it is what made me decide to start this thread. What freedoms do you value the most? Would you fight for them? Even if it meant taking up arms? The freedoms I value the most are equal rights for everyone no matter gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. I believe we as consenting adults have the right to tell the Gov't should to stay out of our bedrooms. I believe women should have the freedom of choice as to whether to have an abortion or not. Would I fight for them? Hell yeah even if it meant going to war. I have rifles/guns, I know how to use them and I'm not afraid to die, that pretty much sums it up. Right now I'm doing it by signing petitions, protesting, voting and trying to get the word out: PEOPLE stand up for yourselves or you will loose the rights you have that our ancestors fought so long and hard for. Women in particular right now are under siege and alot of the age group 18-35 don't remember what it was like back when women didn't have any say in their lives. The ones who have been blinded by the extreme religious right I think maybe a lost cause, I've spoken to a few and they are like robots, just spew out what they've been programmed to say. Its truly sad. But I keep hope and keep on trying. ~Lashra

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 9:46:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy Below you will read a question Level asked me on the poll i started about freedoms you would fight for and my response, it is what made me decide to start this thread. What freedoms do you value the most? Would you fight for them? Even if it meant taking up arms? The freedoms I value the most are equal rights for everyone no matter gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. I believe we as consenting adults have the right to tell the Gov't should to stay out of our bedrooms. I believe women should have the freedom of choice as to whether to have an abortion or not. Would I fight for them? Hell yeah even if it meant going to war. I have rifles/guns, I know how to use them and I'm not afraid to die, that pretty much sums it up. Right now I'm doing it by signing petitions, protesting, voting and trying to get the word out: PEOPLE stand up for yourselves or you will loose the rights you have that our ancestors fought so long and hard for. Women in particular right now are under siege and alot of the age group 18-35 don't remember what it was like back when women didn't have any say in their lives. The ones who have been blinded by the extreme religious right I think maybe a lost cause, I've spoken to a few and they are like robots, just spew out what they've been programmed to say. Its truly sad. But I keep hope and keep on trying. ~Lashra There are people that are programmed regardless of religion.........parents do this, schools do this....... whatever society we are raised in does this. As for the gun or weapon issue......I can no more imagine a day to day life where people have the odd gun or two stashed in their homes ,than maybe US citizens can imagine how others can live well enough without that as a right. I don't care for anything to rule my life other than what I feel aligned with.....but I will still have to. That's life. My kids don't WANT to wear school uniform....... all I can say is too bad. THEY can't see how it affects their education ........I say that it makes no difference whether they like it or not.... sometimes that's just how it is. THEY want to express their individuality....... I think they can.....just not in *school time, clothes-wise. Too bad, tough-shit. Life IS shitty sometimes, unfair and unjust....speak-up if you wish, or dare, in whatever way you think you are able.......there are consequences to that .....be prepared for that also. agirl

twicehappy -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 10:16:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *I don't care for anything to rule* my life other than what I feel aligned with.....but I will still have to. That's life.** You would not care for it? But would you sit meekly by or would you fight for your right not to be under such dominion? From the tone of you posts thus far i gather you would sit meekly by rather than attempt to make your way in the world that existed. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Life IS shitty sometimes, unfair and unjust....speak-up if you wish, or dare, in whatever way you think you are able.......there are consequences to that .....be prepared for that also. Good thing for folks like you there are always others willing to fight and die for what they believe in. Because of those very people you can sit back and not worry about the world you live in; others have paid and will continue to pay the price of your freedom. The problem i see is what if everybody had your attitude? If someone were to attempt to rob your house, injure your unmentionables would you defend them? Or sit back and chant "life is shitty"? The way i see it that is no different a situation than someone trying to rob me and the untold numbers of my descendants of their right to freedom. quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra The freedoms I value the most are equal rights for everyone no matter gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. I believe we as consenting adults have the right to tell the Gov't should to stay out of our bedrooms. I believe women should have the freedom of choice as to whether to have an abortion or not. Would I fight for them? Hell yeah even if it meant going to war. I have rifles/guns, I know how to use them and I'm not afraid to die, that pretty much sums it up. Right now I'm doing it by signing petitions, protesting, voting and trying to get the word out: PEOPLE stand up for yourselves or you will loose the rights you have that our ancestors fought so long and hard for. Women in particular right now are under siege and alot of the age group 18-35 don't remember what it was like back when women didn't have any say in their lives. The ones who have been blinded by the extreme religious right I think maybe a lost cause, I've spoken to a few and they are like robots, just spew out what they've been programmed to say. Its truly sad. But I keep hope and keep on trying. BRAVO!!!!!!!! Perhaps if more people follow your actions it will never come down to a fight of arms.

Lashra -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 10:18:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl There are people that are programmed regardless of religion.........parents do this, schools do this....... whatever society we are raised in does this. Yes unfortnately we do but those that are enlightened still will fight for freedom of thought. Just because its the standard doesn't mean we have to accept it. As for the gun or weapon issue......I can no more imagine a day to day life where people have the odd gun or two stashed in their homes ,than maybe US citizens can imagine how others can live well enough without that as a right. I own guns because I want them and right now it is legal. Though that is always subject to change. Do I think every person under the sun should own a gun? Nope thats why we have laws/background checks done to try to keep the guns out of the hands of nuts. Criminals and terrorist usually do not buy their guns from a gun store! I don't care for anything to rule my life other than what I feel aligned with.....but I will still have to. That's life. If you feel that way thats fine, then things will never change for you unless someone else takes up the banner. I on the other hand believe in being proactive. My kids don't WANT to wear school uniform....... all I can say is too bad. THEY can't see how it affects their education ........I say that it makes no difference whether they like it or not.... sometimes that's just how it is. THEY want to express their individuality....... I think they can.....just not in *school time, clothes-wise. Too bad, tough-shit. Life IS shitty sometimes, unfair and unjust....speak-up if you wish, or dare, in whatever way you think you are able.......there are consequences to that .....be prepared for that also. I as an adult will accept whatever consequences come my way even if it means giving up my citizenship and moving elsewhere. Thats my choice and right now I still have one. ~Lashra agirl I am prepared for whatever comes, even if it means relocating to another country.

MistressLorelei -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 10:27:12 AM)
I find hypocrisy in what some of you are claiming to fight for. There has to be a compromise... or no one really has any freedom at all. Fight for smoking rights.... sure, anyone should be allowed to be a smoker, just not allowed to smoke anywhere they feel like it. Everyone's rights to breathe clean air in public buildings override one's right to pollute that building. Guns. I may not like them, but I will support the American ideal of thou sacred gun... as long as the gun carrier will support my right to live next door to someone who owns a lethal weapon safely locked, and registered. Most people are fighting for 'their' rights and 'their' rights alone... regardless of whose rights they are squelching while securing 'their' personal freedoms. I support compromise.... getting along in society, so we can all live together safely without harming one another. For ourselves, our children... our future.

mistoferin -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 10:35:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei Guns. I may not like them, but I will support the American ideal of thou sacred gun... as long as the gun carrier will support my right to live next door to someone who owns a lethal weapon safely locked, and registered. The American ideal of guns is the right to keep and bear arms. What good would it be to have a safely locked gun? I don't know many intruders who would be so accomodating as to allow you the time to go fetch your keys and ammo so that you could properly defend yourself against them. Excuse me, I need a few minutes to prepare for you to rob or kill me because my gun is safely locked....?????????

NorthernGent -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 10:49:46 AM)
agirl, Your post That's rot. I am perfectly able to appreciate every life that was taken, lost or given. BE that life a German life a Jewish life a British life. There was suffering under EVERY banner, flag and religion........so NO.........I don't align myself with any allegiance for any suffering..........it was NOT for ME. I was born here..........I can't claim any pride in the acts of valour by Englishmen. Bollocks to the idea of respect .......should the young german lad that stood for what he did, not be appreciated JUST because I'm british. I am sorrowful that MANKIND is this way ........I do not hold to MY breast the suffering of people that just happen to have been British. agirl Edited to add. ......Anything I do is for myself, my beliefs and my kin........I do not expect anyone else to share my ardence. An excellent post - I couldn't agree more with the above. To add, nationality is simply a notion borne out of economic convenience. There is nothing concrete about it as, put simply, a fence has been fixed around a plot of land and national anthems and flags created. Ultimately, nationality is meaningless and designed to brainwash the masses into fighting for the spoils of war that are only ever shared by the establishment. Why would anyone be proud that, for example, in the First World War, millions of British men killed millions of German men and vice versa - where is the pride in that? There was no fight for freedom or anything like that - it was purely about economic gain - control of the dardanelles, control of the English Channel, gaining and maintaining colonies and for the British it was crucial to join forces with fading powers in order to keep the real developing power in it's place. That doesn't make me proud it just makes me mad that as a society we have a habit of falling for all the spin and propaganda and allowing ourselves to be killed to keep the people who run our countries in cigars and brandy. A point of order for one poster. The British Government did not enter WW2 out of any concern for Nazism or smaller countries such as Belguim and Poland - they entered out of a desire to maintain the postion of Britain among the leading powers and maintain the colonies. Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 11:04:31 AM)
In answer to the original question would you fight for your freedom? - well it depends what you define as freedom and whether or not you think your freedom is being restricted. Maybe a better way of looking at it is would you fight for what you care passionately about and what you believe in - to me the answer would be yes. Would I fight for my freedom? certainly not in a war because my freedom isn't being restricted in a war nor is it what wars are fought for. NorthernGent

twicehappy -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 11:33:20 AM)
Wow, is all i can say. I know some of your fellow Brits who love their homeland; so where are you members of the UK to stand up for your country?

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 11:59:47 AM)
IF ever a time comes that I have to make some sort of decision to fight .....I will do it in the way that seems right at the time and also bear the REASON in mind.....MY comment was that it would be UNLIKELY to mean bearing arms. It's INCREDIBLY presumptious of you to speak about me as folks like you......You know NOTHING about me or my life. You have NO idea what I may have already had to face , endure or how much quiet sacrifice I may have made or had to make in my life. You have NO idea of what freedoms I have quietly pursued......in MY own way. There is many a hot coal that a person will tread for their children ....in reality, they just may not for someone else. I don't have an attachment to my descendants in terms of my nationality.......I don't think mine are more deserving of my thoughts and appreciation than any other members of the human race who've suffered. I have NO idea how I'd have behaved in the world that existed. I'd probably have done what I had to, just as most of the souls who lived through those times did. I can't SAY ...and frankly.....nor can you. It's pure speculation. Try not to pick and mix my posts..........No, I do NOT care for some things in life, but the fact remains that there are some things that just have to be got on with. I will choose my battles and choose how I fight them .........it may not be your way .....too bad. It suits me. Don't read into my lack of patriotism as a lack of caring for anything at all. Re-read my posts. agirl

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 12:05:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy Wow, is all i can say. I know some of your fellow Brits who love their homeland; so where are you members of the UK to stand up for your country? Stand up for what? I appreciate the many things that chance gave me, by being born in the UK. I don't love the UK anymore than I hate the US. I don't have any experience of living in another country.....why should I claim love for something that just happened to be? How odd. agirl

agirl -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 12:12:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra quote: ORIGINAL: agirl There are people that are programmed regardless of religion.........parents do this, schools do this....... whatever society we are raised in does this. Yes unfortnately we do but those that are enlightened still will fight for freedom of thought. Just because its the standard doesn't mean we have to accept it. AND we have a choice in the WAY we do it. As for the gun or weapon issue......I can no more imagine a day to day life where people have the odd gun or two stashed in their homes ,than maybe US citizens can imagine how others can live well enough without that as a right. I own guns because I want them and right now it is legal. Though that is always subject to change. Do I think every person under the sun should own a gun? Nope thats why we have laws/background checks done to try to keep the guns out of the hands of nuts. Criminals and terrorist usually do not buy their guns from a gun store! I understand that, it was a comment, not a judgement. I don't care for anything to rule my life other than what I feel aligned with.....but I will still have to. That's life. If you feel that way thats fine, then things will never change for you unless someone else takes up the banner. I on the other hand believe in being proactive. No, there ALWAYS will be things that I do NOT like but have to put up with. THAT is life. That is NOT to say that I won't ever get the chance to make a difference, it is STILL a fact. My kids don't WANT to wear school uniform....... all I can say is too bad. THEY can't see how it affects their education ........I say that it makes no difference whether they like it or not.... sometimes that's just how it is. THEY want to express their individuality....... I think they can.....just not in school time, clothes-wise. Too bad, tough-shit. Life IS shitty sometimes, unfair and unjust....speak-up if you wish, or dare, in whatever way you think you are able.......there are consequences to that .....be prepared for that also. I as an adult will accept whatever consequences come my way even if it means giving up my citizenship and moving elsewhere. Thats my choice and right now I still have one. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.* ~Lashra agirl I am prepared for whatever comes, even if it means relocating to another country.

twicehappy -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 12:21:49 PM)
This was posted on the poll that started this thread, i loved it so much i brought it here, hope you do not mine hizpeach, and BRAVO to you as well. quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach They came for the Jews and I was not a Jew, so I did not protest. They came for the Gypsies, and I was not a Gypsy, so I did not protest. They came for the Unionists, and I was not in a Union, so I did not protest. Then they came for ME - and there was no one Left to protest. Rights and Freedoms work the same way. I often jokingly refer to myself as a Rabid Constitionalist and say that I have no qualms about maintaining my Second Amendment right to bear arms via the very arms they are attempting to strip from me. It isn't a joke. Nor is it a joke (though many take it as pure sarcasm) when I tell someone - I will fight, and if need be die, to protect your right to hold the wrong opinion. After all, just because I will fight to protect your right to hold your opinion doesn't mean that I'm going to pat you on the head and Agree with your opinion. Fighting for YOUR right to an opinion, or freedom, comes with the Caveat that I'm also fighting for MY right to hold an opinion or exercise a freedom - even one that YOU disagree with./quote]

NorthernGent -> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? (7/27/2006 12:29:41 PM)
twicehappy, Your quote: Wow, is all i can say. I know some of your fellow Brits who love their homeland; so where are you members of the UK to stand up for your country? It always amazes me when a poster/person states they don't support war-mongering domestic politics and the response is "why don't you love your country?" It's perfectly plausible to oppose your Government slaugthering people but still like your country. I could name you at least 20 things I like about England off the top my head - it's just that one of them isn't the British Empire or current Briitish foreign policy. Just because you don't take pride in your Government killing people doesn't mean you can't take pride in other things your country has to offer. In a nutshell, opposing your Government's foreign policy isn't being anti-British or anti-American. Similarly, a foreigner vehemently against US foreign policy is not anti-American. Regards

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