Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:04:47 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

NorthernGent,

I assure you that paragraph is completely utterly logically consistent.

It is logically valid no matter which system of analysis you you use
to analyze it. Truth function, Quantification, even if you went all the
way back to Aristotle and used syllogisms. If you would like we could
do that. It has been a few years since I was a philosophy major but
I think I could still find my way around this argument.

Note: Argument here being used in the formal philosophic
sense that any set of sentences which are used to support a
position is an argument.


Since you have asserted it "defies logic" please choose the system
you wish to use to analyze it and we can begin.

If on the other hand you wish to abandon your position, and instead
discuss the truth or falsity of each assertion both stated and unstated
then we can do that instead.

Outlier



A tip of the hat to you, outlier, on your profile. Well done.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to outlier)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:21:54 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
I might just vote for Mercnbeth, if we can get this Walmart situation straightened out. First of all absolutely write the Law so they cannot force themselves on a community, stop giving them any tax breaks or subsidies and take all their employees off food stamps.

I am a firm believer in fighting for others' rights, as long as they are rights. The right of a business owner to declare his establishment a smoking area. The rights of crack and smack addicts to persue their happiness, but not to use tax dollars to fix them when they destroy themselves. The right to be a prostitute. The right to be a homosexual. These are rights that I do not excercise, but rights nontheless.

I am none of these things, but I remember a saying, I think it was a Jewish saying but I don't care. They came for the Poles, I was not a Pole so..... and so forth, and then when they came for me there was nobody left.

To keep the Gays and Lesbians happy, businesses would be required to keep X amount of people on healthcare at the whim of the worker. Basically it would not be a whim, a person needs to make a declaration, and like a marriage, once on, it is very hard to get them off of it. Same way with private pensions, they would be assignable. This would not apply to social security, but that is not worth a shit anyway.

Even the right to drive after drinking is imbued with the responsibility that if one causes property damage or injury or death while driving intoxicated, it is considered a deliberate act. Just think of the deterrent, kill someone on the road and get convicted of first degree murder, possibly face the death penalty. Injure someone in that state and you go down for assault and battery. Even a fender bender would be intentional vandalism.

Actually now that I think of it social security can be handled too, you may assign a portion of your witholdings to another person.

A new way of thinking is needed, the old way is not working. We need drastic changes to make this country what it should be. They keep saying that this country was founded by Christians, but the Constitution says "Creator", not God, nor Yahweh or Jesus. They had witch hunts for Communists, but there is no law against being a Communist. Were they subversive and try to enforce their beliefs on the People ? As long as they only want to try to convince others of their belief, there is nothing wrong with it.

First of all, Communism in it's pure form can indeed work well, but it is NOT "each according to their ability and each according to their needs". The two are improper
because that removes personal responsibility to strive for excellence.

The government should have absolutely nothing to do with the scholls, although it should issue diplomas, based solely on tests. These provide proof that a person has normal competency for many tasks, and can read and write. No free education either. Pay for your kids dammit, I do not have to.

Vote for me and this is what you will get. Whaddya think ? True freedom, but coming with it is responsibility. No universal sufferage, one can become an adult at any age after some tests. If you don't pass the tests for a diploma the other tests will not be administered and you can be a minor all your life, which means your Parents must support you for the rest of their lives, or until you do pass and are an asset to society.

I bet this sounds like a rough life to some, and there are many reasons it probably wouldn't work, mainly stemming from the fact that your average sheeple out there have the minds of children. That is their parents' fault.

You want to see society change for the better ? Try that set of rules.

In my world there would be one thing that the government does actually subsidise, and that is a gun in every household. With ammunition. Want to see crime go down ? A small town in Texas tried this a few decades ago, actually requiring each household to have a firearm, ammo, and at least one person living there able to use it. What do you think happened to their crime rate ? (hint: there are no figures if you don't count zero as a figure)

The thing most people don't take into account is that when you have the freedom of choice, you must live with the consequences of your choices, good or bad. That scares some, but not me. I already live outside the legal system. I will never take anything from them, nor will I give them anything. The statutes and codes do not apply in my house, MY LAW is the last word here.

In my world, no prosecution could be started without a victim. Legislate all you want. But no, in my world a grand jury couldn't indict without a victim. Any Law proposed is limited to 100 words, and is made public before the houses vote on it, then all the votes are made public on TV, the internet and the newspapers. Private newsletters would be exempt, but if the publisher is incorporated it is part of their charter that they must do this.

The government would also publish it, and include ONLY the opinions of elected officials, not their aides, handlers or writing staff. It must come from the person we elected, and are suposed to be able to trust. Campaign promises would be enforcable by LAW. A proven lie in your campaign platform is treason, and you are executed. Still want the job ?

T

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:37:31 PM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level



A tip of the hat to you, outlier, on your profile. Well done.



Level,

Thank you, I went to your profile to attempt to reciprocate and
you have taken it down for awhile. So all I can do is say thank you
and not continue this hijack of TwiceHappy's thread any further.

Outlier

_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 12:09:38 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
Outlier,

I would be massively out of my depth discussing philosophy with anyone so I'll pass on the offer.

When I used the term 'defies logic' my meaning was/is it is a statement constructed with a series of assumptions that aren't necessarily true. I have a sneaking suspicion you knew exactly what I was getting at.

It appeared to me you were giving the paragraph some credence by linking it with the phrase "one of the best British minds". For the reasons I listed above that paragraph alone does not support any argument.

Regards

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 3:50:59 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
IronBear there was never any doubt in my mind that you had and would fight again, it shows in your eyes, even in just your photo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill


I love this one, it is so very true.


Outlier, You and Level feel free to hijack any of the threads i start, Level is one hell of a nice(sorry if the word nice infringes on the top half of your switch mode)guy.

Termyn8or, so much of your post was great that instead of quoting i choose to simply say, Very Well Done!

< Message edited by twicehappy -- 7/28/2006 4:01:13 AM >


_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 3:53:54 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

popeye,

It's all assumptions and negative connotations though isn't it. For example, "mass hangings", "torture", "lefties". You're creating images to support your case - i.e. propaganda.

Saddam Hussein was blatantly an extremely vicious individual. If the main goal of the US and British Governments was to oust him for the benefit of the Iraqi people then I'd be the first to support them. However, it was not and is a complete red herring. They are there to maintain a dominant position in the Middle East region and secure oil supply and prices through the Caspian Sea region near Afghanistan.

As for fighting for your freedom - you first have to define what is freedom, you then have to understand who is threatening your view of freedom. I'm interested to hear what you believe constitutes your freedom and who you believed was threatening it.

Regards.


Coupled with that is the way you may fight.

Many, many people *fight* for what they believe, what they think is right without using guns.

Feeling responsible for my place in this country doesn't mean that I am fervently patriotic about it. If I chose to live in Norway I'd have the same sense of responsibility.

My sense of personal responsibity and what I may or may not think is *right*, isn't dependent on where I live or whether I'd pick up a gun.

Nothing I have said has indicated that I am apathetic, as was suggested in an earlier post.

agirl



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 5:39:06 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill



Mills was a man who thought barbarians were beyond self government and needed guidence. However one of those barbarians Ghandi became one of the greatest men in the 20th century by his refusal to pick up arms.

I'm amazed how in wartime countries belong to everyone but in peace they don't. I would be inclined to defend England as the land of my parents and family but I would not defend the venal British state and establishment.

Fighting in WWII, people had little option. It wasn't about fighting for freedom it was about fighting for survival. However, very few wars and I'm struggling to think of one, are about fighting for freedom. They are usually wars contrived by interested parties under the guise of freedom and use suckers to fight them while the interested parties do all in their power to remain in a place of relative safety.

(in reply to outlier)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 10:16:21 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
dunno about fighting for freedom....but fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity..........if you've left it to the point where violence is the only solution, then generally you failed somewhere earlier on.....................

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 11:12:12 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
Hi agirl,

Your quote:

Many, many people *fight* for what they believe, what they think is right without using guns.
 
Agreed. All this talk of wars, guns, fighting, patriotism etc - it is a good example of how as a species we have completely lost our way. Why on earth would a significant proportion of Britons and North Americans support the massacre of people in Iraq? Take away the politics and bring it down to it's bones and there's one simple answer - we don't even know who we are anymore. We're chasing cars, houses and all the other trappings of material wealth and we're prepared to kill people for it and disguise it as a half baked notion of freedom. Humans don't need these trappings. We may want them but for our spirit we need love, loyalty, friendship and respect. Scratch beneath the surface and a lot of us don't even know who we are - probably 3% is real and it's buried somewhere in among the 97% that has been sold to the bank, the establishment and the money devil.

The politics of patriotism, nationalism, war and fighting is not our natural state - we've lost our way completely.

For the record, I'm not a manic depressive :-)

Regards



(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 1:25:41 PM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiceHappy

What freedoms do you value the most?

Would you fight for them? Even if it meant taking up arms?



I think if there is one thing we can all agree on it is that
this whole thing is TwiceHappy's fault.

(Sorry, TH I could not resist)

I cannot continue to participate because I have business to
take care of before the first of the month. So I have to go.
I regret this because this has been an interesting discussion
with good points made on both sides.

As to my participation; I believe that the quote from J.S. Mill
addresses the second original question NOT the first.

And I really don't think we have any disagreement about the
second. NorthernGent said this;

"In answer to the original question would you fight for your freedom?
- well it depends what you define as freedom and whether or not you
think your freedom is being restricted. Maybe a better way of looking
at it is would you fight for what you care passionately about and what
you believe in - to me the answer would be yes. Would I fight for my
freedom? certainly not in a war because my freedom isn't being restricted
in a war nor is it what wars are fought for."

NorthernGent post #34


So the question as I see it is; Can there ever be a just war?
Clearly Mill would say yes and I would agree with him.

Note:This does not say all wars, or most wars or any particular war.

That is to say in the context of TwiceHappy's original question;
"Are wars ever fought for a just reason, ie. people's freedom?"

I think yes because all I have to do is find one such example in
the recorded history of man and I am logically home free.

Note again:This does not say all wars, or most wars or any particular war.

And of course in the current world situation; "Are we in one?"

These are all very engaging questions and I regret that I can not
stay and participate in the discussion. But I feel confident that I
leave both sides in good hands.

And I will check in to see the resolution when I return,

Thank you all.
Outlier




_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/28/2006 1:47:49 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
Outlier,

I agree with your point that the central question is "is there such a thing as a just war?" and that can be extended to "is there anything in life that justifies killing someone?". My strong opinion is that 99.9% of events/acts in life can never justify murder/war/killing. It is even open to debate whether or not someone killing a member of your family justifies killing the murderer - I personally think there is a decent argument to be had both ways on this one.

Regardless, a strong case can not be put forward on the basis of 0.01%. Thus, the answer has to be killing/war is not justfiable.

I suppose the proof is in the pudding and, as we have had a fair few number of wars over the centuries, if there ever is such a thing as a justifiable war we would be able to point to an example from the past.

A point I may not have explained very well, when I said there are things in life I care passionately about and would fight for I did not mean fighting in a violence context - strive would have been a more appropriate term.

Regards

(in reply to outlier)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/29/2006 3:13:23 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
If I fight or strive for something, I have to be certain in my own mind that what I'm doing is the right thing or the best thing to be doing in the circumstances. I can't fight for something if I'm not convinced of that.

I have to wonder at the emotive language used to decribe the way young men went to war....(** they gave freely and without hesitation**)......many had no CHOICE.......and they certainly weren't fully informed.

I wonder how many soldiers, now in Iraq, are *giving freely and without hesitation* and how many are *putting up and shutting up*.

agirl






(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 72
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078