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Republican and Democrat Values and how they have changed - 6/29/2017 9:45:29 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I was listening to KMOX, my local conservative radio station, when the host brought on a political science guest. It was a very interesting segment and one I happen to agree with.

His main contention was that both parties no longer represent voters with the basic views of their parties not so many years ago.

Where once those that voted Republican believed in small government, low taxes, and few entitlements now are more divided by where they live... rural as opposed to urban. One of the reasons there is so much discord in the Republican party is many new Republicans do believe in entitlements and want to continue to have them. Republicans used to be leaders in international issues but now have become nationalists. Where once Republicans were world policy makers now they want to withdraw to our borders and have become isolationists.

Democrats... or those that vote democratic are far more likely to be from the Cities. They hold a more world view on politics and are more inclusive when it comes to race and religion.

Otherwise rather than real political issues most people vote for... people like themselves. This is dangerous and is only polarizing our two party system to where there is no compromising. When there is no compromising animosity increases between the opposing groups which only polarizes even more.

His solution is the need for more political parties that will divide the vote and force compromise that will produce legislation that can survive year to year political shifts. The problem is the majority of people that would vote for a third party candidate do not want to feel like they are throwing their vote away so they do not vote their desires. He has a solution for this as well... and I like it.

His solution is to allow voters to vote with a first and second or more choices. Your first vote goes to your most desired candidate but then you can vote for a second candidate or more. If your first candidate fails to gain the majority then your vote will go to your second choice and so on. This system should allow some third party or independent candidates to win forcing compromise by the main parties.

Some cities already have this system and I'd like to see it become the law of the land... What say you?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 9:46:54 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Big fan of ranked voting. It eliminates the third party disadvantage at the polls (if not in the Electoral College)

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 2:36:18 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

We live in a republic, not a democracy. Most do not really understand the difference, especially because we have elections. Well they have elections in China and Russia.

Republicans freed the slaves, and I am pretty sure gave Women the right to vote. One thing alot of people do not know is that Black Men got the right to vote before Women in this country.

The south, trying to get out of the union did want to keep their slaves. They were democrat. Lincoln was a republican. Indeed the parties have changed, but what hasn't ? Republicans are now warmongers and impelled to be so by their oil rich supporters. Democrats will play the same game, but slightly differently. They are all bought and paid for. To try to find any real difference between them is like finding a needle in a haystack without a magnet.

You got your choice between no guns and no abortions, and we need both. Neither party even comes close to actually serving our needs, which is their job. But someone outbid us. Legislators get like $176,000 a year, but lobbyists come in with millions, and promise to pay later when they get out of office so it does not look so bad. Or to pay their Wife or kids or whatever.

The bottom line here is that you can never stop this shit. I have been in trouble and my lawyer said "The system does not wok without money". I said "How much ?". Yeah I did it, now get me off. And that is how they are. Ever hear of affluenza ? Difference is I did not hurt or kill anyone. I bought my way out of alot of trouble, more than most people could handle. The very few people I did hurt, I paid off in spades. Out of pocket.

There is alot more aqfoot than just the changes in the political parties, people have changed. I took responsibility and paid my debts to those I hurt. People today want an insurance company to do that.

T^T

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 2:41:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		EVERYONE understands the difference.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 6:30:23 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

We live in a republic, not a democracy. Most do not really understand the difference, especially because we have elections. Well they have elections in China and Russia.

Republicans freed the slaves, and I am pretty sure gave Women the right to vote. One thing alot of people do not know is that Black Men got the right to vote before Women in this country.

The south, trying to get out of the union did want to keep their slaves. They were democrat. Lincoln was a republican. Indeed the parties have changed, but what hasn't ? Republicans are now warmongers and impelled to be so by their oil rich supporters. Democrats will play the same game, but slightly differently. They are all bought and paid for. To try to find any real difference between them is like finding a needle in a haystack without a magnet.

You got your choice between no guns and no abortions, and we need both. Neither party even comes close to actually serving our needs, which is their job. But someone outbid us. Legislators get like $176,000 a year, but lobbyists come in with millions, and promise to pay later when they get out of office so it does not look so bad. Or to pay their Wife or kids or whatever.

The bottom line here is that you can never stop this shit.

Term, If you are ever in NE TN/SW VA where I81 and I26 cross, I owe ya a fuckin beer.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 8:09:36 PM   
LadyDemura


Posts: 141
Joined: 2/12/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

EVERYONE understands the difference.




Everyone understands the difference, but no one ever explains exactly why a republic is so much better than a direct democracy.

Why shouldn't the American people, at the very least, have the power to veto any bill the legislative branch puts forth, especially when most of them do not serve the voters interests?

I'll allow that occasionally, time is of the essence, and something that is passed close to unanimously by the legislative branch shouldn't have to wait on the next ballot.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 8:26:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I believe we can change things and a third party is the way to do it. It works in many other democracies why can't it work here? I am among those that would have voted for a third party candidate but didn't because I knew my vote would have been worthless. With a ranked voting system I could vote my conscience without fear of throwing my vote away. If I'd do it many more may and it could result in a third part candidate in Congress.

Imagine the result of say 6 third party Senators and 25 house members in healthcare negotiations and the very different type of bill that would be put to Congress. Reality would require compromise. If say the Republicans refused to include the Democrats in the healthcare bill the Democrats could petition the third party to block their bill even if The Republicans voted as a block. The only way to get any legislation passed would be to be inclusiveness and compromise. I believe this is exactly what most Americans want to happen.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/29/2017 8:28:04 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 9:03:36 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Otherwise rather than real political issues most people vote for... people like themselves. This is dangerous and is only polarizing our two party system to where there is no compromising.


In other words their votes are guided by social issues? Or have social issue become political issues? What is the difference, eh?

quote:

His solution is the need for more political parties that will divide the vote and force compromise that will produce legislation that can survive year to year political shifts.

We are a corporate and PAC kleptocracy. Big donors will not give to small parties.

Furthermore, what your radio host suggested is not working in Great Britain, where money has been clobbering Labour since Maggie Thatcher. The Brits have produced legislation that has survived year to year and it has been unfriendly to the working class.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 9:12:32 PM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
We live in a republic, not a democracy.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . .

"Most do not really understand the difference,"

Oh, really?

"Republicans freed the slaves,"

Who enslaved them in the first place? Go far back in history, far back.

Did slavery exist only in the US? Did Republicans emancipate the world in 1863?

"and I am pretty sure [Republicans] gave Women the right to vote."

Who denied them the vote in the first place? Sorry, but neither Southern nor Northern Democrats existed 3,000 or 300 years ago.

quote:

You got your choice between no guns and no abortions, and we need both. Neither party even comes close to actually serving our needs, which is their job. But someone outbid us. Legislators get like $176,000 a year, but lobbyists come in with millions, and promise to pay later when they get out of office so it does not look so bad. Or to pay their Wife or kids or whatever.


This is news.

Obviously, no one ever saw this before you explained it just now.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/29/2017 9:22:33 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 9:54:06 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Everyone understands the difference, but no one ever explains exactly why a republic is so much better than a direct democracy.


Popular ballots are cast only every two years. Too little too late.

Only 55% of eligible voters cast ballots in the 2016 general elections.

Mostly, imo, people cast emotional votes with limited knowledge of the issues and candidates.

quote:

Why shouldn't the American people, at the very least, have the power to veto any bill the legislative branch puts forth, especially when most of them do not serve the voters interests?



Only the president has veto power. You would have to Amend Article 2

Furthermore, so many issues are so technical that laymen do not ordinarily have the knowledge to make judgments on who an issue benefits overtly and what are the implicit ramifications of Yea or Nay. Look at the Asian trade deal that was dropped recently. There was very little discussion of the geopolitical consequences of the Power Vacuum created in the Pacific by the American withdrawal.

quote:

I'll allow that occasionally, time is of the essence, and something that is passed close to unanimously by the legislative branch shouldn't have to wait on the next ballot.


You make a cogent argument against your own proposals. I think.

Congress has the power to establish its own rules. You would have to Amend Article 1.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to LadyDemura)
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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/29/2017 11:22:36 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Alright kinkroids, once and for all, we live in a democratic republic. That means we democratically elect republican govt.. Now get over it, it is a distinction without a difference.

In media there was a law requiring what was called...equal time. I.e., equal time had to spent on both sides of an issue.

Under Reagan in 1986, that law was abolished.

Now the media can come on and lie through their teeth, present fully one-sided arguments and totally demonize any opposition.

Here is the result: The Brainwashing of my dad among other factors.

HERE

HERE

HERE

The full documentary is $3.99

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 4:26:15 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Republicans freed the slaves, and I am pretty sure gave Women the right to vote.

You're wrong. Woodrow Wilson gave women the vote.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 5:45:03 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

EVERYONE understands the difference.




Everyone understands the difference, but no one ever explains exactly why a republic is so much better than a direct democracy.

Why shouldn't the American people, at the very least, have the power to veto any bill the legislative branch puts forth, especially when most of them do not serve the voters interests?

I'll allow that occasionally, time is of the essence, and something that is passed close to unanimously by the legislative branch shouldn't have to wait on the next ballot.



Take a look at the mess California is in. It's a case study on why government by proposition/referendum doesn't work.

Governance, ultimately, is making choices. "I like this, I don't like that" isn't government.

(in reply to LadyDemura)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 5:47:45 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe we can change things and a third party is the way to do it. It works in many other democracies why can't it work here? I am among those that would have voted for a third party candidate but didn't because I knew my vote would have been worthless. With a ranked voting system I could vote my conscience without fear of throwing my vote away. If I'd do it many more may and it could result in a third part candidate in Congress.

Imagine the result of say 6 third party Senators and 25 house members in healthcare negotiations and the very different type of bill that would be put to Congress. Reality would require compromise. If say the Republicans refused to include the Democrats in the healthcare bill the Democrats could petition the third party to block their bill even if The Republicans voted as a block. The only way to get any legislation passed would be to be inclusiveness and compromise. I believe this is exactly what most Americans want to happen.

Butch

I agree with you, but with the caveat that it's harder for a third party in our system than in a parliamentary system. Presidential candidates have to earn 50% or the House gets to decide.

So...we have to pack Congress with third party candidates. One by one.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 10:47:35 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

EVERYONE understands the difference.




Everyone understands the difference, but no one ever explains exactly why a republic is so much better than a direct democracy.

Why shouldn't the American people, at the very least, have the power to veto any bill the legislative branch puts forth, especially when most of them do not serve the voters interests?

I'll allow that occasionally, time is of the essence, and something that is passed close to unanimously by the legislative branch shouldn't have to wait on the next ballot.



Take a look at the mess California is in. It's a case study on why government by proposition/referendum doesn't work.

Governance, ultimately, is making choices. "I like this, I don't like that" isn't government.

Actually Cailf. is doing better than many states, turned a huge deficit into a small one by comparison, surplus and because revenue was tried to stock market factors, only now is facing a small by comparison, budget shortfall.

Under Brown, Cailf. from his predecessor, was faced with huge problems and have made mostly many correct choices.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 11:04:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Republicans freed the slaves, and I am pretty sure gave Women the right to vote.

You're wrong. Woodrow Wilson gave women the vote.

Freeing the slaves was not the republican party's intent, but it came from a few radical republican cabinet people as a way to win the war.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 11:10:44 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Republicans freed the slaves, and I am pretty sure gave Women the right to vote.

You're wrong. Woodrow Wilson gave women the vote.

Freeing the slaves was not the republican party's intent, but it came from a few radical republican cabinet people as a way to win the war.

That's a whole other debate, and one that the poster I was correcting would doubtless stick his fingers in his ears and refuse to listen to.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 6/30/2017 5:49:31 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		I actually have one Spock ear and will pretty much wreck garbage – Tis my way

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

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RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 7/1/2017 12:59:43 AM   
LadyDemura


Posts: 141
Joined: 2/12/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Take a look at the mess California is in. It's a case study on why government by proposition/referendum doesn't work.

Governance, ultimately, is making choices. "I like this, I don't like that" isn't government.


I live in California. How exactly is it a mess?

Has a wonderful tech industry. It is a leader in agriculture even. The entertainment industry still seems to like it. I'm still not sure #CalExit wouldn't be a good idea. The rest of the country would be a failed state without California, especially with Trump as it's leader. Why should California go down with this ship?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Republican and Democrat Values and how they have ch... - 7/1/2017 6:47:26 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Bye-bye! Enjoy your new country!

California has a populist structural problem that refuses to cut services but also refuses to fund them properly, creating a structural deficit and preventing its government from making sane choices (appropriate overtime, for example).

I'm wondering what your new country is going to do about a military and particularly about water, since the bulk of it comes from your soon to be former neighboring states. That's gonna make agriculture a lot tougher. Maybe tech can figure it out.

As for the rest of the country failing without California, that's simply absurd. Look at some data before spouting silliness. In overall economic health, California is a third of the way down the list.

Florida oranges and Mexican avacados.

(in reply to LadyDemura)
Profile   Post #: 20
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