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How is leftism defined?


Leftism is defined by ideology
  20% (3)
Leftism is defined by actions
  20% (3)
Leftism is defined by opposition to a republican president
  6% (1)
Leftism is defined by somebody on the right disliking somebody
  33% (5)
Leftism is defined by not being the proper sort of rightist
  20% (3)


Total Votes : 15
(last vote on : 7/1/2017 1:12:40 AM)
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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 4:51:04 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

For me, the notion of society to begin with is the place to start.

So, do tell me how that is different from my starting with the social compact?


Granted, you had that as point 1)

But your point 2) claimed that government administration was the only way to accomplish the task.

I recognize the fact that any country exists from start to finish by way of rule/force of law, but my estimation is that what goes on within is what makes it an actual society. The commerce aspect is what I've studied most lately, and that was enlightening and wonderful. All us busy bees doing an almost innumerable assortment of different things to make each other happy. We all use or eat things that others produced for us, as we spend the day producing for others, however directly or indirectly in either case. I think that's fascinating.

There's also culture, in which the commercial side is somewhat involved too. Not that too many of the billionaires have a clue about classical music composers, but thank goodness for the few who are of means to support the efforts of composers and painters anyway. And thank goodness for the composers and the painters themselves in the first place. Gongrats to humans on all the spaceships and hyper-aggressive computer games, but I think that the arts (which I grudgingly admit includes fancy-schmancy literature) are what separates us from the rest of nature as much as anything else.

The thing about your notion of "social compact" is that it assumes there is, or could be such compact. I wish it were the case that we could come to such conclusion as to attain this compact, but we in the US are of such diverse mind and background that I don't see that happening.

Nevertheless, I'm still glad you threw out the "social compact" notion, there.

I'm going to keep throwing out the "what benefits society" thing, too, just so we can keep it in people's minds that a better society is best evidence of evolution at work.

I'm sure I didn't explain things well enough, but I'm in a muddle of phone calls and emails, here.










< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/30/2017 4:53:38 PM >

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 5:19:40 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Communism should actually work in theory - so why doesn't it?


Because the theory itself is broken, being that it is imaginary and not based on empirical evidence (aka real life experience).

Let's put it this way: the Germans could (and still can) do almost everything right, if they put their minds to it.

After 44 years of trying, even the (East) Germans couldn't figure out how to make it work. They were still 'basic Germans' at the start of it.

Communism degrades and diminishes the individual across the board. Capitalism degrades diminishes the individual in more haphazard fashion. You read Pravda in one case, TMZ in the other case, to figure out what's important.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 5:28:35 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		I found the theory to be just fine myself

Didn’t Jesus feed the masses with two fish fingers?

Are you unholy?

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 6:06:26 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I found the theory to be just fine myself

Didn’t Jesus feed the masses with two fish fingers?
Are you unholy?


Swiss cheese is not unholy, but why are you demanding that humans be likewise?

In any case, there is the item of incentivisation and the items of both human and animal nature.

Are we all the same? I sure hope not. What a disaster if everyone were like me.

Though I harp constantly here about the lowest paid workers getting the short end of it, that doesn't mean I advocate suppression of those who take better to incentivisation in their efforts. It's just another form of individualism to me.

I don't even argue against excess, on its own, just against what harms society. Teen boys know all about excess, and the majority make effort to lessen the impact, as much as they can manage.

Just because we are currently too stupid to reign in corporate irresponsiblility doesn't mean that shackling individuals of any age is the answer.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 6:11:24 PM   
WickedsDesire


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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 6:14:55 PM   
Edwird


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What's wrong with this society in particular and social capitalism in general can be fixed, if there is the will to do it.

If there's not the will to do that, then forget this same society attempting communism in the first place.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 6:16:35 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Are you an individual?


No.

I'm a square peg in a square hole, always have been.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 6:24:43 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 7:06:20 PM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline 		A lot of people have the reading and comprehension skills thing down better than you do. It's not intended insult, it's just what it is.

So, what . . . we should all turn commie so the rest of us can feed your cats and deal with the litter box while you excrete literary excrescence, is that it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
I found the theory to be just fine myself


Of course you did.



< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/30/2017 7:13:20 PM >

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 7:48:28 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

For me, the notion of society to begin with is the place to start.

So, do tell me how that is different from my starting with the social compact?


quote:

Granted, you had that as point 1)

But your point 2) claimed that government administration was the only way to accomplish the task.


NOPE. I said government was the best way.

quote:

I recognize the fact that any country exists from start to finish by way of rule/force of law, but my estimation is that what goes on within is what makes it an actual society. The commerce aspect is what I've studied most lately, and that was enlightening and wonderful. All us busy bees doing an almost innumerable assortment of different things to make each other happy. We all use or eat things that others produced for us, as we spend the day producing for others, however directly or indirectly in either case. I think that's fascinating.


I cannot agree that making others happy is a motivation for commerce except to garner the monetary rewards from people who buy our products and services. But there are many people who cannot afford to pay.

quote:

There's also culture, in which the commercial side is somewhat involved too. Not that too many of the billionaires have a clue about classical music composers, but thank goodness for the few who are of means to support the efforts of composers and painters anyway. And thank goodness for the composers and the painters themselves in the first place. Gongrats to humans on all the spaceships and hyper-aggressive computer games, but I think that the arts (which I grudgingly admit includes fancy-schmancy literature) are what separates us from the rest of nature as much as anything else.


I believe the scientific endeavor can be a major contributor to social cohesion.

quote:

The thing about your notion of "social compact" is that it assumes there is, or could be such compact. I wish it were the case that we could come to such conclusion as to attain this compact, but we in the US are of such diverse mind and background that I don't see that happening.


We are in the midst of a conflict between forms of social compact now, the seeds of which were planted in the 17th Century by the writings of Thomas Hobbes on the one hand and John Locke on the other.

Hobbes suggested that in nature (without government) life would be brutish and short and every man would be at war with every other man, arguing for a strong government to protect the weak from the strong.

Locke suggested that the essential ingredient for a social compact was the guarantee of individual Liberty. Minimal government.

Our constitution is based upon Locke's theory.

quote:

I'm going to keep throwing out the "what benefits society" thing, too, just so we can keep it in people's minds that a better society is best evidence of evolution at work.

I'm sure I didn't explain things well enough, but I'm in a muddle of phone calls and emails, here.


Well then, when you have more time.












_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 9:01:53 PM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline 		quote]ORIGINAL: vincentML
ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

For me, the notion of society to begin with is the place to start.

So, do tell me how that is different from my starting with the social compact?


quote:

Granted, you had that as point 1)

But your point 2) claimed that government administration was the only way to accomplish the task.


"NOPE. I said government was the best way."

So I said it wrongly. But the point remains: government is an essential part of it, but certainly not the overriding part of it, if society itself is to have any say in the matter.

quote:

I recognize the fact that any country exists from start to finish by way of rule/force of law, but my estimation is that what goes on within is what makes it an actual society. The commerce aspect is what I've studied most lately, and that was enlightening and wonderful. All us busy bees doing an almost innumerable assortment of different things to make each other happy. We all use or eat things that others produced for us, as we spend the day producing for others, however directly or indirectly in either case. I think that's fascinating.


quote:

I cannot agree that making others happy is a motivation for commerce


I never claimed such. I just provided a a description of everyday events. We are all incentivized or impelled in one way or another.


quote:

except to garner the monetary rewards from people who buy our products and services. But there are many people who cannot afford to pay.


Sorry you missed my 50 million earlier posts addressing the matter of ability to pay. So why the eff are you even talking to me?

quote:

There's also culture, in which the commercial side is somewhat involved too. Not that too many of the billionaires have a clue about classical music composers, but thank goodness for the few who are of means to support the efforts of composers and painters anyway. And thank goodness for the composers and the painters themselves in the first place. Gongrats to humans on all the spaceships and hyper-aggressive computer games, but I think that the arts (which I grudgingly admit includes fancy-schmancy literature) are what separates us from the rest of nature as much as anything else.


quote:

I believe the scientific endeavor can be a major contributor to social cohesion.
You bet'cha.

quote:

The thing about your notion of "social compact" is that it assumes there is, or could be such compact. I wish it were the case that we could come to such conclusion as to attain this compact, but we in the US are of such diverse mind and background that I don't see that happening.


quote:

We are in the midst of a conflict between forms of social compact now, the seeds of which were planted in the 17th Century by the writings of Thomas Hobbes on the one hand and John Locke on the other.


If you say so.

quote:

Hobbes suggested that in nature (without government) life would be brutish and short and every man would be at war with every other man, arguing for a strong government to protect the weak from the strong.

Locke suggested that the essential ingredient for a social compact was the guarantee of individual Liberty. Minimal government.

Our constitution is based upon Locke's theory.


I'll take your word in that. This particular 14-18 yr, old was too busy listening to Clapton and Respighi and Brahms and Bach to notice, even though I read a lot.

Yes, science takes us to the moon and back, and now allows 'internet providers' to delve into every last detail of our life (fuck you google for making my parents' life a torture!).

But Debussy took me to places where Bill Gates' mind could never imagine or conjure.

Good luck on anybody else's notion of society; mine is well in place and not open to discussion.



< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/30/2017 9:06:56 PM >

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 6/30/2017 9:55:20 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
have shared other versions of this in the past, perhaps worth sharing again:


No, it's not.

Left vs. right isn't just about liberals vs conservatives and it isn't just about the American system... it definitely isn't about what some deluded RWNJ thinks left/right is.
Anarcho-communists are as far left as you can get and they believe in NO government whatsoever.

That's why the claim that fascism is left wing simply because it involves a strong state is so dumb.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 4:04:51 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		What a civilised thread! The absence of malignant trolls and their trolling is refreshing, opening up a space that encourages pleasant exchanges of views.

What is 'leftism'? As an -ism it must be ideologically based. And the left broadly covers a multitude of ideologies ranging from centre-left to revolutionary perspectives. Most of these approaches share a vision of social justice, where society's wealth is deployed to benefit all members of society not the privileged few, where all have an equal chance at realising their potential, where all have equal access to quality services such as healthcare, justice and security and where education and in particular scientific education is the guiding principle of progress and social enlightenment. A radical implementation of the democratic principle enables all citizens to exercise their rights freely and equally with each citizen's input to be of equal value to all others.

So we can say that the basic principles that leftist approaches aspire to implement are democracy, egalitarianism liberty and social justice.

It should go without saying that those who adopt the label 'leftist' should be those who define the term. The input of those who use the term as a form of abuse is unnecessary and deserves to be ignored.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/1/2017 4:05:13 AM >

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 4:44:46 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


It should go without saying that those who adopt the label 'leftist' should be those who define the term. The input of those who use the term as a form of abuse is unnecessary and deserves to be ignored.


It's rarely used other than as a pejorative, from what I've seen. It's not a term I'd use myself, to be honest - I'd assume those hearing me using it would instantly mark me down as a right wing ranter and this preconception would colour anything I say thereafter.



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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 4:53:09 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It should go without saying that those who adopt the label 'leftist' should be those who define the term. The input of those who use the term as a form of abuse is unnecessary and deserves to be ignored.

Sort of my point? The term leftist is mostly used in here by the more obnoxious rightists, most commonly to describe anybody and everybody who disagrees with the, and that's a diss not a political description.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 5:31:44 AM   
Edwird


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Well, I was going to answer the poll, but I didn't see among the multiple choice options for definition of "leftist":

"Anyone whose name doesn't start or end with 'Generalissimo Francisco Franco' or 'Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte'."

But I think most people got the point, especially as to option 4).

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 5:47:31 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: bounty44

have shared other versions of this in the past, perhaps worth sharing again:

Why do you think anyone is interested in your puerile thoughts?


Energy


Liberal
Oil is a depleting resource.

Tell us college boi why you think the oil supply is infinite.


Other sources of energy must be explored.

Tell us college boi why we should not.




The government must produce a national plan for all energy resources and subsidize (partially pay for) alternative energy research and production. Support increased
exploration


Just like we did with fossil fuel.
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.


of alternative energy sources such as wind and solar power.

Wind power was being used at the south pole to run electric lights when n.y. city was still using gas lighting.

Support government control of gas and electric
industries.

Tell us , college boi, why you oppose the p.u.c.?

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 6:03:34 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
have shared other versions of this in the past, perhaps worth sharing again:


No, it's not.

Left vs. right isn't just about liberals vs conservatives and it isn't just about the American system... it definitely isn't about what some deluded RWNJ thinks left/right is.
Anarcho-communists are as far left as you can get and they believe in NO government whatsoever.

That's why the claim that fascism is left wing simply because it involves a strong state is so dumb.


Yes!

Actually, I disagree about the term "Anarcho-Communist," but otherwise your point is spot on. I actually had a year's subscription to Anarchy Magazine and The Fifth Estate magazine way back when, and the Anarchists were always telling the Communists to shut up and quit butting in, and telling them to go away.

But in any case: yes, -no government- is what the Anarchists were (maybe still are) all about. If you want to go "far, far left!" or "radical left!," as someone in this forum keeps braying incessantly, that's where it ends up.

But as tweakabelle points out (thanks for the great post, tweaker), "the left" or the term "leftist" covers a large ideological territory.

It's too complicated for some.

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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 6:51:42 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Edwird



Because the theory itself is broken, being that it is imaginary and not based on empirical evidence (aka real life experience


Clearly the only marx you have ever read was groucho.



Let's put it this way: the Germans could (and still can) do almost everything right, if they put their minds to it.

This is different from the chinese, french or italians?

After 44 years of trying, even the (East) Germans couldn't figure out how to make it work.


Perhaps a trip to google could disabuse you of your ignorance of the economic status of the former e. Germany when it was.

They were still 'basic Germans' at the start of it.

Communism degrades and diminishes the individual across the board.


How so? Cite please.




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RE: How is leftism defined? - 7/1/2017 6:55:35 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: vincentML




quote:

The thing about your notion of "social compact" is that it assumes there is, or could be such compact. I wish it were the case that we could come to such conclusion as to attain this compact, but we in the US are of such diverse mind and background that I don't see that happening.


We are in the midst of a conflict between forms of social compact now, the seeds of which were planted in the 17th Century by the writings of Thomas Hobbes on the one hand and John Locke on the other.

Hobbes suggested that in nature (without government) life would be brutish and short and every man would be at war with every other man, arguing for a strong government to protect the weak from the strong.

Locke suggested that the essential ingredient for a social compact was the guarantee of individual Liberty. Minimal government.

Our constitution is based upon Locke's theory.

I do not see the 'minimal' govt. thingie in the constitution.

(in reply to vincentML)
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