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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/6/2017 5:57:52 PM

bounty44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.

So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.

Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

Tell you what, otter...you quote where I said what you accused meow saying...or anybody else that disagrees with you...said exactly what you said: that I think no one deserves assistance. Then your post would be accurate. But you can't...so it's not. Got anything else? Other than Lucy's fictitious meme? Or is it time for more "retarded"..."nutsucker"..."jizz"?

its the latter, its all he has.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

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Post #: 101

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/6/2017 7:35:26 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
In a post from you below, you ask the question about who is responsible for killing 5 workers on the railway: the train or the engineer. From your answer above, I'd say you believe it is the train. But I bet I'm wrong and...like most people, me included...you blame the engineer. He had a choice...

Just as obese people had an initial AND subsequent choices. Just as lazy people have a choice. Just as addicted people made an initial and subsequent choices til their ability to choose got drugged over by their addiction. Why is it you can see the engineer's choice and not fat, lazy and/or addict's choices? Willingness to learn is a recognition that if you want things, you have to learn how to get them. And again...choice comes into play...get them honestly or dishonestly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

note my response to the putinjizz felchgobbling of dogshit44.

D)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

Got any proof that ANYONE on here thinks that...posts...cites...anything? Didn't think so...

quote:

original mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

Tell you what, otter...you quote where I said what you accused meow saying...or anybody else that disagrees with you...said exactly what you said: that I think no one deserves assistance. Then your post would be accurate. But you can't...so it's not. Got anything else? Other than Lucy's fictitious meme? Or is it time for more "retarded"..."nutsucker"..."jizz"?

All cattishness notwithstanding my little meowster, I didnt accuse you of saying shit, you accused me of some stupid shit that didnt happen.

Follow along in the A, B, C, D, E fashion since you cant follow the post numbers. 69, 71 etc.

I said you were a retard, never accused you of something you did or did not say. Thats why I dont have serious discourse with nutsuckers, they are owed no honest consideration, only derision for their forcing their retardation on others.

Cleared up? No? Think about it, you got time.

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Post #: 102

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/6/2017 10:16:45 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A)
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
In a post from you below, you ask the question about who is responsible for killing 5 workers on the railway: the train or the engineer. From your answer above, I'd say you believe it is the train. But I bet I'm wrong and...like most people, me included...you blame the engineer. He had a choice...

Just as obese people had an initial AND subsequent choices. Just as lazy people have a choice. Just as addicted people made an initial and subsequent choices til their ability to choose got drugged over by their addiction. Why is it you can see the engineer's choice and not fat, lazy and/or addict's choices? Willingness to learn is a recognition that if you want things, you have to learn how to get them. And again...choice comes into play...get them honestly or dishonestly.

C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

note my response to the putinjizz felchgobbling of dogshit44.

D)
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

Got any proof that ANYONE on here thinks that...posts...cites...anything? Didn't think so...

E)
quote:

original mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

Tell you what, otter...you quote where I said what you accused meow saying...or anybody else that disagrees with you...said exactly what you said: that I think no one deserves assistance. Then your post would be accurate. But you can't...so it's not. Got anything else? Other than Lucy's fictitious meme? Or is it time for more "retarded"..."nutsucker"..."jizz"?

All cattishness notwithstanding my little meowster, I didnt accuse you of saying shit, you accused me of some stupid shit that didnt happen.

Follow along in the A, B, C, D, E fashion since you cant follow the post numbers. 69, 71 etc.

I said you were a retard, never accused you of something you did or did not say. Thats why I dont have serious discourse with nutsuckers, they are owed no honest consideration, only derision for their forcing their retardation on others.

Cleared up? No? Think about it, you got time.

Actually...I don't have time to deal anymore with someone who says one thing, then comes back and says he didn't or he said something different or "felchgobble"..."bathroom"...nutsucker...or thinks he's cleared anything up by presenting posts that show where you did accuse me and others of saying something we didn't. But I'm sure you can't see that and would deny it anyway.

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Post #: 103

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 2:13:17 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

We are 50 separate entities under one Federal umbrella. That's what we are. We are the United States of America, right?

OTOH, we are one nation under god with liberty and justice for all. We are not under one Federal umbrella, we are not separate entities. Each person is first a citizen of the United States, not of a particular state. Each person has the right to free travel and free commerce across borders. You travel abroad with a Passport from the United States, not from Ohio. Your notions are very antiquated, DS.

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 2:18:23 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
So under the 'Right to Life' perhaps the government should provide healthcare to those with chronic illness.

Protecting one's right to life is not the same as providing one's right to life. The right to life means no one is allowed to take your life without consequences. If you are suffering a chronic illness that will end your life, it is the illness that is taking your life, not another person.

A train is speeding down the track and five men are working on the rail unaware. . . . Assume you have control of the switch to set the train off on a divergent track. You choose not to throw the switch. The five workers die. Who killed them? The train? Or you?

The train conductor, maybe? Must be a hybrid train that is floating on the tracks, too. Or the railroad for not having adequate safety measures? Or, maybe the divergent track is a worse disaster? Under your intended response, would those 5 deaths still be "my" fault?

Nice try, but, fail.

You torture a simple response in order to avoid the obvious. But if you insist, yes, the five deaths would be your fault also. You have the option. Maybe you should run away and hope you were not seen.

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 2:20:55 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
So under the 'Right to Life' perhaps the government should provide healthcare to those with chronic illness.

Absolutely. Makes sense to me.

except this has been explained to you before, partially by the contrast between "negative" rights and "positive" rights. our country was founded with the former at its core---that is, the things the government CANNOT do to you. that is in this case, since we have a right to life the government cannot just willy nilly take it, and further, governments are established so that other people cannot just willy nilly take it either.
it simply does not follow from having a right to life, that governments exist to provide for people in the way the left desires.

Then, the government should not be able to interfere in a woman's right to abort her child.

We would agree the Federal government should not be able to interfere with a woman's decision to abort her child. I'd even go one step further and say that the Federal government has no authority to even speak about a woman's decision to abort her child, one way or the other. No authority was granted it in the US Constitution, afterall.

If a State's charter grants the authority to determine if a woman is allowed to abort, or when a woman is allowed to abort, then that State can interfere, if it and it's citizens so choose.

Only if you ignore the guarantee of substantive equal protection under law granted to each citizen of the Nation under the 14th Amendment.

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Post #: 106

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 2:26:41 AM

longwayhome

Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
So under the 'Right to Life' perhaps the government should provide healthcare to those with chronic illness.

Protecting one's right to life is not the same as providing one's right to life. The right to life means no one is allowed to take your life without consequences. If you are suffering a chronic illness that will end your life, it is the illness that is taking your life, not another person.

A train is speeding down the track and five men are working on the rail unaware. . . . Assume you have control of the switch to set the train off on a divergent track. You choose not to throw the switch. The five workers die. Who killed them? The train? Or you?

The train conductor, maybe? Must be a hybrid train that is floating on the tracks, too. Or the railroad for not having adequate safety measures? Or, maybe the divergent track is a worse disaster? Under your intended response, would those 5 deaths still be "my" fault?

Nice try, but, fail.

You torture a simple response in order to avoid the obvious. But if you insist, yes, the five deaths would be your fault also. You have the option. Maybe you should run away and hope you were not seen.

Careful vincent, you are sounding almost like a European social democrat there.

Surely protecting the life and liberty of all people and not just the few can't be American values?

Of course they can by my reading of your great country's history.

It's just about making choices DS. European health systems are more cost effective than the American system. They just require society to make a bold choice to provide care for everyone, then the cost comes down for everyone. Hundreds of millions of people elsewhere in the world have done it.

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Post #: 107

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 3:06:18 AM

vincentML

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quote:

You might want to go back and read this thread again. Nowhere are we saying that people who can not support themselves shouldn't receive help. I will say that it's not within the purview of the Federal Government to give that help, though.

Then you would be incorrect.

Section 8 of Article 1 of the Constitution enumerates the powers of Congress. The first enumerated power is the laying of taxes. As you know there has been controversy since Madison v Hamilton whether the first enumerated power limits the following powers.

The last enumerated power reads: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

So Congress gave itself the power to make laws to perform activities that were not at the time foreseeable.

SCOTUS confirmed this power by ruling on the constitutionality of the Social Security Acts, specifically to the problem of unemployment in the case of Steward Machine Company vs, Davis: Steward Machine Co. v. Davis,546 which sustained the tax imposed on employers to provide unemployment benefits, and the credit allowed for similar taxes paid to a State. To the argument that the tax and credit in combination were “weapons of coercion, destroying or impairing the autonomy[p.156]of the States,” the Court replied that relief of unemployment was a legitimate object of federal expenditure under the “general welfare” clause, that the Social Security Act represented a legitimate attempt to solve the problem by the cooperation of State and Federal Governments, that the credit allowed for state taxes bore a reasonable relation “to the fiscal need subserved by the tax in its normal operation,”547

The Court does not agree with you.

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 3:09:20 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

um Vincent, like I have already said---because one of governments duties is to protect life from the predations of people that would take it.

you know---as in abortion is murder.

I have no idea how you got from what I said, to what you said.

It would help if you would point me to what i said. I have no clue at this point. Sorry.

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Post #: 109

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 3:16:03 AM

vincentML

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quote:

Careful vincent, you are sounding almost like a European social democrat there.

Surely protecting the life and liberty of all people and not just the few can't be American values?

They have been from time to time. Unfortunately, it has not been a consistent theme with our home grown Tories. They always manage to find limitations and qualifications. It reads well in our documents, however.

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Post #: 110

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 4:02:02 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A)
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
In a post from you below, you ask the question about who is responsible for killing 5 workers on the railway: the train or the engineer. From your answer above, I'd say you believe it is the train. But I bet I'm wrong and...like most people, me included...you blame the engineer. He had a choice...

Just as obese people had an initial AND subsequent choices. Just as lazy people have a choice. Just as addicted people made an initial and subsequent choices til their ability to choose got drugged over by their addiction. Why is it you can see the engineer's choice and not fat, lazy and/or addict's choices? Willingness to learn is a recognition that if you want things, you have to learn how to get them. And again...choice comes into play...get them honestly or dishonestly.

C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

note my response to the putinjizz felchgobbling of dogshit44.

D)
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
B)
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
all I see here is yet another macro difference between liberals and conservatives. the latter thinking people rise or fall by merit and effort and the former thinking everyone who falls is an innocent victim.

so, the nutsuckers think you are shot and not shot by merit? You and the gob of nutsuckers actually think everyone who is on a good Samaritan program of the people is a lazy ne'er do well, who is out to fuck you out of your welfare check.

Got any proof that ANYONE on here thinks that...posts...cites...anything? Didn't think so...

E)
quote:

original mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I know you are one of the circlefelch of retarded nutsuckers here, but see the post that I followed and what was said previously.
So, 69, 71, my accurate observation 73, and then your massive retardation, 74, please dont tell me you have felchgobbled so much putinjizz that you cant follow a conversation of 3 seconds.
Has your level of retardation lessened? cites? didnt think so.

Tell you what, otter...you quote where I said what you accused meow saying...or anybody else that disagrees with you...said exactly what you said: that I think no one deserves assistance. Then your post would be accurate. But you can't...so it's not. Got anything else? Other than Lucy's fictitious meme? Or is it time for more "retarded"..."nutsucker"..."jizz"?

All cattishness notwithstanding my little meowster, I didnt accuse you of saying shit, you accused me of some stupid shit that didnt happen.

Follow along in the A, B, C, D, E fashion since you cant follow the post numbers. 69, 71 etc.

I said you were a retard, never accused you of something you did or did not say. Thats why I dont have serious discourse with nutsuckers, they are owed no honest consideration, only derision for their forcing their retardation on others.

Cleared up? No? Think about it, you got time.

Actually...I don't have time to deal anymore with someone who says one thing, then comes back and says he didn't or he said something different or "felchgobble"..."bathroom"...nutsucker...or thinks he's cleared anything up by presenting posts that show where you did accuse me and others of saying something we didn't. But I'm sure you can't see that and would deny it anyway.

actuallly I have all the time in the world for you retarded felchgobblers of putinjizz. you are also a hysterical paranoid, you are right up there next to dogshit44 in terms of your toiletlick. I think the hive mind of felchgobblers is causing mass hysteria and nervous breakdowns for your felchgobbling putinjizz crippled brainstems where your brain should be.

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 7:55:07 AM

WickedsDesire

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toilet lick guffaws and wanders off

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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 8:07:11 AM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I know a whole shitload of republicans and conservatives that don't believe any of that shit. But keep painting them with one brush. I am hoping it will help them win the next election too.

THe thing is Boi, I posted that, directly to call out Bountys usual fairytale about libs vs cons.
He posts it a lot, and yes My post is as bad as what he posts, but you jumped on me.. so did he, lol not realising the irony of the irony irony.
They are both fairytales, and just as bad as each other.

I know as well as you do that there are millions of people that dont think like that on either side of the fairytale, on either side of party, religion, gender.
It made the point I wanted, Thank you.

Bounty, You are as bad as anyone regarding fairytales. I just wanted to show you how fucking annoying your bullshit is, because you are so partisan, you think YOU made a point
Every time you post a pov about libs and cons, I will post it.
Because both are bullshit. Ugly, and do not help anything.
The difference is that I dont believe it is all one sided.
in any way.
You do.

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 1:13:00 PM

WickedsDesire

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dogsbreath44 please

If you pat its head it will wag its tail and piddle itslef

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/7/2017 3:46:02 PM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

abortion is murder.

This would be your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion worth a little less than used shit paper.

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Post #: 115

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/8/2017 5:30:41 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

um Vincent, like I have already said---because one of governments duties is to protect life from the predations of people that would take it.

you know---as in abortion is murder.

I have no idea how you got from what I said, to what you said.

Depends on your definition of life, doesn't it. The Court received consultations from biologists and ethicists. Were you not consulted?

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/8/2017 5:38:39 AM

WhoreMods

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: bounty44

abortion is murder.

This would be your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion worth a little less than used shit paper.

Maybe he's heard that an unborn foetus has been sworn in as a cop somewhere?

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/9/2017 5:52:15 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

We are 50 separate entities under one Federal umbrella. That's what we are. We are the United States of America, right?

OTOH, we are one nation under god with liberty and justice for all. We are not under one Federal umbrella, we are not separate entities. Each person is first a citizen of the United States, not of a particular state. Each person has the right to free travel and free commerce across borders. You travel abroad with a Passport from the United States, not from Ohio. Your notions are very antiquated, DS.

How many Federal umbrellas are we under, then, Vince?

Ohio most assuredly is separate from California, and Florida, and even separate from direct neighbors, MI, IN, PA, KY and W.VA. Does each State have the ability to make rules that apply solely to residents of that State?

My notions are reality, Vince, no matter how much the Progressives want to change reality.

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What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/9/2017 5:54:14 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
So under the 'Right to Life' perhaps the government should provide healthcare to those with chronic illness.

Protecting one's right to life is not the same as providing one's right to life. The right to life means no one is allowed to take your life without consequences. If you are suffering a chronic illness that will end your life, it is the illness that is taking your life, not another person.

A train is speeding down the track and five men are working on the rail unaware. . . . Assume you have control of the switch to set the train off on a divergent track. You choose not to throw the switch. The five workers die. Who killed them? The train? Or you?

The train conductor, maybe? Must be a hybrid train that is floating on the tracks, too. Or the railroad for not having adequate safety measures? Or, maybe the divergent track is a worse disaster? Under your intended response, would those 5 deaths still be "my" fault?
Nice try, but, fail.

You torture a simple response in order to avoid the obvious. But if you insist, yes, the five deaths would be your fault also. You have the option. Maybe you should run away and hope you were not seen.

So, I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. Awesome. I guess that's just one job I won't be applying for.

I'm not offering a simple response to a loaded question. You might be able to get away with shit like that with others, but not with me (at least not usually).

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)

Profile

Post #: 119

RE: Fourth of July 2017 - 7/9/2017 6:30:40 PM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
It's just about making choices DS. European health systems are more cost effective than the American system. They just require society to make a bold choice to provide care for everyone, then the cost comes down for everyone. Hundreds of millions of people elsewhere in the world have done it.

To an extent, it's about making choices.

Under the US Constitution (including current Amendments), we can not have a system like the one in the UK. There is no authority for it. If there is no authority for it, the Federal Government should not be allowed to do it. Period. If an Amendment authorizing the Federal Government was passed, it's a whole new ball game (and, I've said several times before, I'd likely support that Amendment).

If anyone really thinks that just letting the US Federal Government be the only payer is going to make things different in the US, they probably ate some 'shrooms, or dropped acid. I doubt, in my lifetime, I'll see this problem solved.

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What I support: