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RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 2:41:47 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

A slightly different angle
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/7/7/15934752/health-insurance-heterotaxy-twitter


You know, over here, we all simply know health insurance is important and buy them by ourselves from private companies so we are covered 100%. Same with parents, as children goes in and out of hospital alot. Just a simple fever is 5 days hospitalization and the bill could easily be 10k. So parents know to get health insurance for their children too, it's common sense.

It doesn't need to be instilled by the government like Obama care. It's a choice. Government just educate us how important health insurance is by educating us how expensive medical bills for all the different illnesses are, and we make sure we get covered. The government also offer comparison of health insurance plans on their government website for our easy reference if we want to buy, we go approach the respective private companies when we want to buy.

So technically, if I have a health insurance that covers me 100% with no deductible, which I do have, I essentially bought my own "universal coverage". If I walk into any hospital tomorrow, it's cashless for me. All just gets billed straight to the insurer, and I pay nothing but my premiums. The only thing my government interfers is them mandating by law that once a health insurer takes up your case, no matter how big are your claims, they cannot cease to cover you or hike your premiums because of it. Makes more sense to me. The problem with US health insurance in the past is that, the US government allows the insurance companies to dump you IF your claims got too high. That's a problem.

But Obama care is too heavy handed, yet unaffordable and didn't make it 100% free, I mean the premiums you pay is like paying higher taxes, but then you don't even get all your medical "free" after paying all that. The way it is written in our health insurance is, "As Charged". So they simply pay whatever the bill is. Essentially, I feel like my medical is free because I bought a health insurance that covers 100%. I consider the premiums I pay like extra tax.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 7:18:34 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		I am very pleased that the virtuous Singaporeans have something to teach us all about responsible health insurance. The child in this case is of course fully "insured" by the state and the financial cost of treatment has not been uppermost in the minds of those grappling with the issue.

This is a very difficult case and not as black and white as you paint it, Greta. In all of your overenthusiastic Brit bashing, you seem to have missed fact that I said at least twice that I would support the child being given this medication, especially since it is a non-invasive treatment with reportedly few side-effects.

The wider issue of principle in terms of whether it is ethical to keep a human being alive not matter the human (not financial) cost is however far more nuanced than you are suggesting. It is a complex ethical issue that goes beyond whether this child should have this treatment at this time. It is not about the cost of treatment but about whether it is humane to continue treatment.

Having seen what I have seen in my life, I cannot support the proposition that every life that can be extended by the use of life support should be extended indefinitely, not because of money but because there are other human considerations. The fact that this case even came to court is testament to how difficult it is. Many life support machines are turned, including those supporting very young babies, without resort to court cases or reference to the cost of treatment.

This happens in countries all around the world. The UK is no exception.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 9:25:30 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		FR:
These baby cases are crap, and i'm not surprised that Greta's complaining about them. They're insufficiently ventilated, so the baby stands a fair chance of suffocating when the case is closed, and also rather small: there's been suggestions that the CEO of the company who makes the things (who has fled since the fuss started) modelled them to fit a premature baby rather than one who'd been born normally at nine months.

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RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 10:32:31 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

FR:
These baby cases are crap, and i'm not surprised that Greta's complaining about them. They're insufficiently ventilated, so the baby stands a fair chance of suffocating when the case is closed, and also rather small: there's been suggestions that the CEO of the company who makes the things (who has fled since the fuss started) modelled them to fit a premature baby rather than one who'd been born normally at nine months.


Hey WhoreMods, what's with the new dandy highwayman reference?

I'll mention you alright. I got the bottle.

By the way, you need to drill holes in a baby case, stupid, or it wont work.

Some people...

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 10:37:22 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		Some people wouldn't think to take the baby out the case first before they started drilling holes in it. There's warnings on the case saying not to do that, in fact. It was a major issue in the court case.
And it's a reference to Adam Ant. Before your time, I'd imagine?

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On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 12:34:24 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		I like people to think so but absolutely not before my time. Unfortunately I can pretty much recite the entire song and have a copy of the album in a box somewhere.

Who'd have thought a baby case would have so many holes in it before even coming to court? Piss poor preparation I say.

I'm sure it only happens in the UK and not Singapore where people have their shit together.

And their highwaymen under control, I've no doubt.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 12:38:59 PM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline 		Good God, man, if you know the song how could you fail to recognise that line? (Still, I haven't been spending cash on looking flash and grabbing your attention, I suppose...)
They don't even have babies in Singapore: they import them from Taiwan. There's a sort of lottery system for it, and babies can breathe in the cases they use to ship them between the two islands, yes.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 1:00:38 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Of course I knew the song. My confusion was why about you were referring to it!

Anyway I've checked and I can't find my turntable, tape deck, speakers or LPs - either I've mislaid them or the devil has made away with them. And despite appearances to the contrary (or my obvious early onset dementia) I am nowhere near state retirement age. At least it's not worth anyone's while burgling my house as there's nothing much to steal. Sadly you can't really tell these idiots that round here that these days.

For God's sake stop me before I disingenuously work the whole song into my postings.

And shame on you for forcing humour into a badly informed thread about a serious matter.

Shame on me too. I should have known better than to respond to a "what the fuck do the British think they are doing?" thread, especially when I so clearly have no knowledge of the British, UK health and social services, public health, medical ethics or family law.

Anyway I've learned my lesson about taking other people on when it comes to their specialist subjects.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 1:06:45 PM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Of course I knew the song. My confusion was why about you were referring to it!

Anyway I've checked and I can't find my turntable, tape deck, speakers or LPs - either I've mislaid them or the devil has made away with them. And despite appearances to the contrary (or my obvious early onset dementia) I am nowhere near state retirement age. At least it's not worth anyone's while burgling my house as there's nothing much to steal. Sadly you can't really tell these idiots that round here that these days.

For God's sake stop me before I disingenuously work the whole song into my postings.

And shame on you for forcing humour into a badly informed thread about a serious matter.

Shame on me too. I should have known better than to respond to a "what the fuck do the British think they are doing?" thread, especially when I so clearly have no knowledge of the British, UK health and social services, public health, medical ethics or family law.

Anyway I've learned my lesson about taking other people on when it comes to their specialist subjects.

Oh, tell me about it. A few of the yanks in here only seem to want to talk about the UK so that they can claim it's a dysfunctional socialist "utopia" where nothing works and the royal family can cut your children up for organ transplants, offering you only a voucher for fifty pounds in Boots, Matalan or Curry's in return.
(Which is nonsense, as it's your local MP who does that.)

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On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 2:18:41 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

And it's a reference to Adam Ant. Before your time, I'd imagine?


Hey WM, do you actually have a working gramophone to play that on? Must be worth a bob or two.

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http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 3:14:59 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		I think he is a toff ;) but I like the smart arse, you too and that other womble HB...ah funky gibbon to whom that concerns - sold out and that was none of your 78rpm malarkey - and, well, after you play your first record 80 times in a row you tend to go bit psychotic - who knew eh!


Anyway Greta75 I dont know enough about that case. But your information is off. But you mean something like this NIGHTWISH - End of All Hope

I actually remember My Aunt gave my Mum a bottle of that Lourdes water to give to me. Poured it all over me I did smoke for a few weeks in the hope is would vanquish the CFS/ME. That was 10 years ago and i can assure you I am a very rational man. Was it irrational of me to try that?


< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 7/11/2017 3:15:24 PM >

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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 4:16:27 PM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
I saw the mother being interviewed and her belief is that this treatment will cure her son and enable him to grow up as a normal child despite being told that this will not happen.

She was told by the UK doctors that this will not happen. But that's not what the US doctors said. They said there was a small chance the child may be able to be healed.




I am not sure what you think "healed" means in the case of this child Greta. Charlie has severe brain damage. I do not believe that any the US doctors claimed Charlie would be healed.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 7:08:02 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
This happens in countries all around the world. The UK is no exception.


Whatever UK courts are doing now is absolutely wrong and that law needs to be changed, this is as horrifying as sharia law that kills gay people, UK law murders babies AGAINST their parent's will using the excuse that the baby is gonna die anyway, lets kill it now!

The government should have no right to dictate when this isn't a child abuse case, the parents aren't abusers, there are many less than 10% chance of living kids who are still going through hopeless chemo to extend their life, anything to try to save them. This will never happen in Singapore or America. They would defer to the parents even IF the baby is brain damaged.

This is seriously NOT normal in other countries! And absolutely one of the most heartless and inhumane thing the court could interfere with .

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/06/health/charlie-gard-us-laws/index.html

What most Americans found unusual "and perhaps radical about (the Charlie Gard) decision was, the family wasn't asking the hospital to continue treatment or the National Health Service to pay for it. They said, 'We have the money. We have a doctor in the US who's willing to do it. Just let us go,' " Lantos said. "And the courts essentially said, 'Nope, we're not even going to let you go.' "

English law, explained Fenton-Glynn, does not see parents as having the "right" to make decisions on behalf of their children. "The concept is called parental responsibility: That is, the parent has a responsibility to make decisions, to look after the child," she said. "Parenthood doesn't give them rights; parenthood gives them responsibilities."

American courts "don't usually do the opposite and say that 'parents who want to keep their child alive are making a decision contrary to the child's interests, because the child would be better off dead, so we're going to overrule the parents,' " he said. "Even when a child met the criteria for brain death," the courts allowed the parents to seek care, he added.



I think Radicalism is soooo fitting for the UK doctors and the UK government and their Court of Law right now! I would worry for any of my love one who ever get a critical disease who is a UK citizen, seeking treatment and deemed to have no hope by the doctors. If ya don't have the money to fight the courts, the country is just gonna murder your family. Could happen to adults who are incapacitated and unable to make decisions for themselves, and the courts may not respect the family decision to fight.

If this case never happened, I never imagine such things could possibly exist in peaceful modern countries.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/11/2017 7:24:49 PM >

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: UK baby case - 7/11/2017 7:10:05 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:


I am not sure what you think "healed" means in the case of this child Greta. Charlie has severe brain damage. I do not believe that any the US doctors claimed Charlie would be healed.


If a child with brain damage does not deserve to live.

Then what about children who were born mentally disabled? They can never be independent for life and will require 24/7 parental care. I worked with these 35 yr old mentally disabled adults before, they are like total children or worst, like perpetually mentally at 1 yr old, and cannot even process or learn simple work, like setting cutlery on table, despite doing it over and over again for a year. So even though they were paid for "working", but their minders basically are the ones who do all the work for them. Guide them step by step, every single day. And they are like new born babies, worst than having a pets, as they can't even pick up anything with repetition.

It's still the parent's choice whether to live with this burden or not. They love the child enough to want to live with it.

The doctors are just to give advice. Not dictate. There will be many parents who will pick the option to pull the plug because they don't want to live with the burden of supporting a child who will never be independent. And the doctors are there to give the advice that there is no hope to alleviate the guilt of those parents who choose to do that.

But these parents are not giving up hope, and I support their cause to do everything possible before they give up!

This is after all a super rare disease where only 16 people ever gotten it. The doctors don't know much about it yet. There is still hope, there is still cures to be discovered. Especially in the field of stem cell.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/11/2017 7:19:13 PM >

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: UK baby case - 7/12/2017 4:27:32 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Wow Greta.

You make some good points mixed in with all your vitriol about UK doctors and the UK legal system.

When I said this was happening "in countries all around the world" I was referring specifically to my statement that I could not "support the proposition that every life that can be extended by the use of life support should be extended indefinitely" and the fact that in cases like that "many life support machines are turned off, including those supporting very young babies, without resort to court cases or reference to the cost of treatment".

You seem to miss the fact that this case only came to court because it was complex and controversial, rather than some desire on the part of UK doctors and lawyers to kill children and end lives. This child is severely brain damaged so I am not sure what you think you mean by a cure. For my part I can see no problem with the proposed treatment, but a "cure" is not on the cards.

Finally if you think that doctors outside the UK carry on treating someone when the treatment will not work, or will cause hardship or harm with no corresponding benefit, you have a very warped view of medicine. There have been other court cases like this outside of the UK. This case is particularly difficult and controversial so I can see your concerns, especially with regard to the sanctity of life, but the legal principle here is not a peculiarly British one.

(in reply to Greta75)
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