RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (Full Version)

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Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 10:58:25 AM)

First, I will say I like the theory of Evolution, because it has driven some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century.

The trouble is those discoveries don’t prove that Evolution is true or a fact.

They at best show that Evolution could be true but do not show that it is what happened.

If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here.




WhoreMods -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 11:03:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here.

Not actually one that precludes evolution working as a process once you've thrown out the absurd crap, mind.




Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 11:15:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

First, I will say I like the theory of Evolution, because it has driven some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century.

The trouble is those discoveries don’t prove that Evolution is true or a fact.

They at best show that Evolution could be true but do not show that it is what happened.

If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here.

1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

That something happened is pretty well established. How that happened has multiple possibilities, some with observable evidence (punctuated equilibrium, for example, in pepper moths and galapagos finches).

Even if evolution (which is actually more than one theory) one day is thrown over for a better and more inclusive explanation, it still is good science for exactly the reason you cited -- as a mode of inquiry, it led to "some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century."

2) Creationism, on the other hand, isn't based on anything except "here's what I think." There's nothing to test, there's nothing new to learn, it's just a belief. Could be true? OK, I can grant that, just as any speculation, like aliens planted us here, "could" be true. But with nothing to test, it's nothing more than a cool idea.

If people were honest about it, as you phrased it, they wouldn't pretend Creationism therefor is "an equally valid 'theory' of how we got here." Not until you figure out a way to test it. Again, you display your misunderstanding of science, here what "theory" means in the scientific sense. Gravity is "just a theory." But when you drop shit, it still falls. It's testable and works.

Where has Creationism taken us? Nowhere. It's DOA. There's no way to learn from it. It's just something some people think. There's no inquiry to take form it. And that's why it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe!




WhoreMods -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 11:18:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

Sort of the whole point?
This is why the arguments about blind faith in the scientific method are such errant bollocks: science is a tool for understanding how things work, while faith is mostly a set of excuses to avoid even thinking about how things work. The fact that there are people who can equate the two with a straight face beggars belief.




Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 11:19:46 AM)

Too many people have spent too long pretending "Nuh-uh! You're stupid!" is logic.




vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 4:51:34 PM)

quote:

yep...

"Evolution Is A Farce, A Fraud, A Fake And A Faith!"


Hey, have you seen god create any new species recently? Or recreate old ones even? If god so loved the dinosaurs why did he let them disappear? He brought Lazarus back but not Tyrannosaurus? WTF? Mean old man in the sky.




Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/18/2017 9:57:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

Interestingly you seem to "believe" that Science has "proved" Evolution to be a fact, even though you say belief has nothing to do with it and science is not about proving anything.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That something happened is pretty well established. How that happened has multiple possibilities, some with observable evidence (punctuated equilibrium, for example, in pepper moths and galapagos finches).

Brilliant, yes something happened.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Even if evolution (which is actually more than one theory) one day is thrown over for a better and more inclusive explanation, it still is good science for exactly the reason you cited -- as a mode of inquiry, it led to "some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century."

Yep, that is what I said, even though I "don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works."
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
2) Creationism, on the other hand, isn't based on anything except "here's what I think." There's nothing to test, there's nothing new to learn, it's just a belief. Could be true? OK, I can grant that, just as any speculation, like aliens planted us here, "could" be true. But with nothing to test, it's nothing more than a cool idea.

Although some would say Creation does have a basis other than "here's what I think" and that it is more than just a "cool idea".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If people were honest about it, as you phrased it, they wouldn't pretend Creationism therefor is "an equally valid 'theory' of how we got here." Not until you figure out a way to test it. Again, you display your misunderstanding of science, here what "theory" means in the scientific sense. Gravity is "just a theory." But when you drop shit, it still falls. It's testable and works.

Stop being obtuse, if a person can see colors there is no need to "test" whether there is such a thing as colors. Likewise with Gravity, as you say you drop shit, it falls, there is no need to "test" it, it just works. The world around us exists there is no need to "test" it, testing it does nothing for its reality, only for our understanding.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Where has Creationism taken us? Nowhere. It's DOA. There's no way to learn from it. It's just something some people think. There's no inquiry to take form it. And that's why it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe!

Well, I would say "Creationism" hasn't gotten you anywhere, that is not true of others.

As for your statement; "it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe", that would be absolutely untrue. If a divine Creator made the Universe, then who's laws is science investigating? If a divine Creator made the Universe, then science is an attempt to better know God, even if those very scientists deny the existence of God.




tweakabelle -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 12:59:03 AM)

One easy way to understand evolutionary models is that evolution can be seen as one process through which living organisms adapt to their environment. In the Darwinian model, this adaption is driven primarily by the random mutation of genes.

We know that organisms adapt to their environment, we demonstrate this every day of our existences. At its simplest level, we adapt to our environments through the choices we make about the clothes we wear, the kinds of houses we build for ourselves, the food we eat and so on. Adapting to the environment is something that everyone does all the time everyday of our lives. Adapting to their environments is something all living things do as a basic survival strategy.

Evolution is one way of understanding and charting these adaptions over enormous periods of time. The successful adaptions survive, while organisms that fail to adapt become extinct. To deny evolutionary processes in the natural world implies that organisms don't or are unable to adapt to their environments.

One would have to be either extremely stupid or ignorant to deny this principle - to do so requires that we deny our own everyday behaviour, the evidence from just about every living organism and the evidence from extinct organisms too.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 1:13:29 AM)

One evolutionary branch

Curious. Wanders off.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 2:32:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

First, I will say I like the theory of Evolution, because it has driven some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century.

The trouble is those discoveries don’t prove that Evolution is true or a fact.

They at best show that Evolution could be true but do not show that it is what happened.

If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here.

As noted above, you Really don't understand Science. You still believe something/anything Can be proved. The Theory of Science, and Epistemology generally knows you can't. No matter what proof, there can always be a possible falsification. Given Any falsification, no proof has validity. Usually when an exception is discovered, work starts to refine the hypothesis to include the exception. If that bears no fruit, efforts to find a new and more powerful hypothesis is energized. What makes Science so powerful is it's experimental method is great at Disproving hypotheses, all that's necessary to doom an idea or hypothesis. At least in it's present form.
In reality, few hypotheses are fully disproven, but more efficient or more comprehensive ideas have more utility or explanatory powers. For instance, Newtonian Physics still has complete validity at low 'speeds', but Einsteinian Physics far better correspond to observations of energy and mass as speeds approach that of light. Current work is reconciling the conflicts between Einsteinian Physics, or General Relativity, and Quantum Physics, the studies of the very big and of the very small.
No idea is a valid theory or hypothesis for Science, if it can't be disproven. "God" being the creator of reality, can't be proven or disproven within that reality by sensory methods. Thus God's existence is a matter of Faith, not proof or disproof. Leading to Faith as religious virtue. "Faith" being defined as believing in something in the absence of any actual proof.
Saying a color or gravity are 'obvious' is not even worth discussing. Literalism is for children. Greeks in the 6th Century BC were well past literal acceptance of sensory input. Most of Newtonian Physics are Now 'obvious' (Meaning any that you Do understand, you learned as cultural concepts before you can now remember) but no culture in history had grasped most of the principles of motion. Newton's 3 Laws of Motion remain to be 'proven', but are called 'Laws' due to the hundreds of years of failing to find exceptions. Einstein's hypotheses included corrections as speeds approach that of light, making the ideas an overarching theory that included Newton. Difficult but potentially potent tests to disprove Einstein are both current and in planning.
Your assumption all scientists disbelieve in God or any form of Creation is equally invalid. Agile minds easily compartmentalize faith and the work of experimentalism.




Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 4:19:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

One easy way to understand evolutionary models is that evolution can be seen as one process through which living organisms adapt to their environment. In the Darwinian model, this adaption is driven primarily by the random mutation of genes.

We know that organisms adapt to their environment, we demonstrate this every day of our existences. At its simplest level, we adapt to our environments through the choices we make about the clothes we wear, the kinds of houses we build for ourselves, the food we eat and so on. Adapting to the environment is something that everyone does all the time everyday of our lives. Adapting to their environments is something all living things do as a basic survival strategy.

Evolution is one way of understanding and charting these adaptions over enormous periods of time. The successful adaptions survive, while organisms that fail to adapt become extinct. To deny evolutionary processes in the natural world implies that organisms don't or are unable to adapt to their environments.

One would have to be either extremely stupid or ignorant to deny this principle - to do so requires that we deny our own everyday behaviour, the evidence from just about every living organism and the evidence from extinct organisms too.

I don't believe anyone is denying adaptation; as you say, it is happening all around us.

What is being denied is that adaptation is proof that evolution is a fact.

At best, it is merely one thing that shows that Evolution could have been how we all got here.




Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 4:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

Sort of the whole point?
This is why the arguments about blind faith in the scientific method are such errant bollocks: science is a tool for understanding how things work, while faith is mostly a set of excuses to avoid even thinking about how things work. The fact that there are people who can equate the two with a straight face beggars belief.

I read a lot of books.

Does that make me a "bookist"?

These people are fucking insane, looking for wars where there are none.

Real problem? These particular "people of faith" have an exceeding weak spiritual/belief practice.

Maybe they should work on that first.





Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 4:59:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

Interestingly you seem to "believe" that Science has "proved" Evolution to be a fact, even though you say belief has nothing to do with it and science is not about proving anything.

Then your reading comprehension is really, really poor. Exactly the opposite -- I specify science doesn't "prove" anything, and you figure I "believe" science has "proved" evolution. You're a moron.

Additionally, again, evolution is not one thing, but a different theories, basically (a) the geological strata and fossils and (b) how it happened/happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That something happened is pretty well established. How that happened has multiple possibilities, some with observable evidence (punctuated equilibrium, for example, in pepper moths and galapagos finches).

Brilliant, yes something happened.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Even if evolution (which is actually more than one theory) one day is thrown over for a better and more inclusive explanation, it still is good science for exactly the reason you cited -- as a mode of inquiry, it led to "some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century."

Yep, that is what I said, even though I "don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works."

Yep. I credited you were you were accurate, as well as accurately noting your remarks reveal a misunderstanding of what science is, what it does, how it works. That misunderstanding persists, clearly.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
2) Creationism, on the other hand, isn't based on anything except "here's what I think." There's nothing to test, there's nothing new to learn, it's just a belief. Could be true? OK, I can grant that, just as any speculation, like aliens planted us here, "could" be true. But with nothing to test, it's nothing more than a cool idea.

Although some would say Creation does have a basis other than "here's what I think" and that it is more than just a "cool idea".

OK. What is it? All I'm seeing is a belief the Bible is literal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If people were honest about it, as you phrased it, they wouldn't pretend Creationism therefor is "an equally valid 'theory' of how we got here." Not until you figure out a way to test it. Again, you display your misunderstanding of science, here what "theory" means in the scientific sense. Gravity is "just a theory." But when you drop shit, it still falls. It's testable and works.

Stop being obtuse, if a person can see colors there is no need to "test" whether there is such a thing as colors. Likewise with Gravity, as you say you drop shit, it falls, there is no need to "test" it, it just works. The world around us exists there is no need to "test" it, testing it does nothing for its reality, only for our understanding.
Well, here's where you and science part company. Again.

There's plenty to test--and much to learn in the process. What is gravity? How does it work? Is it an attractive force? How does it attract at a distance?

Hypothesis and testing has brought us to today's understanding of curved space/time, that things actually don't "fall," but rather are forced toward earth by the extreme curvature caused by the earth's mass of the surrounding space/time. Einstein's idea was considered wacky until observations of stars during a solar eclipse showed that indeed, gravity bends light. Did you pick that up seeing colors?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Where has Creationism taken us? Nowhere. It's DOA. There's no way to learn from it. It's just something some people think. There's no inquiry to take form it. And that's why it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe!

Well, I would say "Creationism" hasn't gotten you anywhere, that is not true of others.
That's what I just said.

As for your statement; "it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe", that would be absolutely untrue. If a divine Creator made the Universe, then who's laws is science investigating? If a divine Creator made the Universe, then science is an attempt to better know God, even if those very scientists deny the existence of God.
OK--so how exactly are you going to test this Creationist idea?

Fact is, what we already know from observation/testing is that the strict 6 days interpretation of Creationists is false.

That a God is behind it is a belief. And it likely will remain so, unless we discover some amazing new way to test for that.

I'm actually a spiritual person. But I know the difference between what's science and what I believe. Even spiritual experiences are subjective. Important perhaps -- but not replicable, not describable in terms of methodology, and not a mode of inquiry in the sense of science.

Nor do I see science as any threat at all to this spirituality. Because they aren't rival belief systems.

One is purely belief. The other is observing the world, forming hypotheses, testing them, and learning from the results, forming new hypotheses, testing them, revising knowledge, etc.

As long as you don't get that, you don't understand science.






Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 5:04:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
As noted above, you Really don't understand Science. You still believe something/anything Can be proved. The Theory of Science, and Epistemology generally knows you can't. No matter what proof, there can always be a possible falsification. Given Any falsification, no proof has validity. Usually when an exception is discovered, work starts to refine the hypothesis to include the exception. If that bears no fruit, efforts to find a new and more powerful hypothesis is energized. What makes Science so powerful is it's experimental method is great at Disproving hypotheses, all that's necessary to doom an idea or hypothesis. At least in it's present form.

Instead of accusing me of not understanding science because I said science does not prove Evolution, you need to explain to all those "Evolutionist" that continue to say; "Evolution is a fact", that they don't understand science because as you say; "science doesn't prove anything".
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
In reality, few hypotheses are fully disproven, but more efficient or more comprehensive ideas have more utility or explanatory powers. For instance, Newtonian Physics still has complete validity at low 'speeds', but Einsteinian Physics far better correspond to observations of energy and mass as speeds approach that of light. Current work is reconciling the conflicts between Einsteinian Physics, or General Relativity, and Quantum Physics, the studies of the very big and of the very small.

Thanx but I probably know more about the differences between Newtonian, Einsteinian and Quantum Physics than most do.
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
No idea is a valid theory or hypothesis for Science, if it can't be disproven. "God" being the creator of reality, can't be proven or disproven within that reality by sensory methods. Thus God's existence is a matter of Faith, not proof or disproof. Leading to Faith as religious virtue. "Faith" being defined as believing in something in the absence of any actual proof.

As is the case with most people that believe as you do, you have allowed yourself to be mislead. The true definition of faith is "the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen" and has nothing to do with believing things that have no proof.
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
Saying a color or gravity are 'obvious' is not even worth discussing. Literalism is for children. Greeks in the 6th Century BC were well past literal acceptance of sensory input. Most of Newtonian Physics are Now 'obvious' (Meaning any that you Do understand, you learned as cultural concepts before you can now remember) but no culture in history had grasped most of the principles of motion. Newton's 3 Laws of Motion remain to be 'proven', but are called 'Laws' due to the hundreds of years of failing to find exceptions. Einstein's hypotheses included corrections as speeds approach that of light, making the ideas an overarching theory that included Newton. Difficult but potentially potent tests to disprove Einstein are both current and in planning.

I really wish schools would teach reading comprehension again.

If you go back and reread what was being talked about it wasn't that color and gravity are "obvious" but that they don't need "testing" to prove they exist.[8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
Your assumption all scientists disbelieve in God or any form of Creation is equally invalid. Agile minds easily compartmentalize faith and the work of experimentalism.

Again I wish schools would teach reading comprehension.
What I actually said was:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
...
If a divine Creator made the Universe, then science is an attempt to better know God, even if those very scientists deny the existence of God.

Which says that it doesn't matter whether scientists believe in God or not but that "if a divine Creator made the Universe, then science is an attempt to better know God". It is a statement that merely acknowledges that there are some scientists that are studying the knowledge of God without believing in the existence of God, that is "if a divine Creator made the Universe".




bounty44 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 5:21:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
As noted above, you Really don't understand Science. You still believe something/anything Can be proved. The Theory of Science, and Epistemology generally knows you can't. No matter what proof, there can always be a possible falsification. Given Any falsification, no proof has validity. Usually when an exception is discovered, work starts to refine the hypothesis to include the exception. If that bears no fruit, efforts to find a new and more powerful hypothesis is energized. What makes Science so powerful is it's experimental method is great at Disproving hypotheses, all that's necessary to doom an idea or hypothesis. At least in it's present form.


I used to teach students to use the word "show" instead of "prove" but in reality the distinction between the two is a small one and sometimes contextual.

proof: a fact or thing [you know, like a scientific process or observation] that shows or helps to show that something is true or exists; a demonstration [you know, from something like, say, a scientific process] of the truth of something; the process of testing [you know, like in a scientific process] whether something is true or valid.

prove: to be found to be [you know, from say a scientific process or observation]; to test or try out [gee, one more time, from say a scientific process]

not all things, but some if not many things can indeed be "proven" and are no longer subject to further testing.

things disagreeing with the straight forward definition of the word "prove" are either functions of a wrong use of the word or a debatable and very esoteric slice of epistemology.

in either case, while im here I can say it again---evolution is a godless religion masquerading as "science."




blnymph -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 5:42:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

some of the fun "facts" of evolution:

[long, but worth the read comrades]

quote:


...

Neanderthal man, another deliberate fraud by evolutionist scientists...

Protsch’s work first attracted suspicion when scientists at Oxford wanted to double-check the authenticity of his dates and verify the ages of many previously reported fossils using modern techniques. Oxford officials insist that this “dating disaster” was discovered during a routine examination, and was not an attempt to discredit Professor Protsch. The fossils he had dated were just in a long line of others that were being rechecked. According to Thomas Terberger, the archaeologist who discovered the hoax: “[A]nthropology is going to have to completely revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago” (as quoted in Harding, 2005). He continued: “Prof. Protsch’s work appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together. This now appears to be rubbish” (emp. added)...


Neanderthal man, just a modern human with disease

After discovering the first Neanderthal skullcap in 1856 in the Neander Valley near Dusseldorf, Germany, German anatomist Ruldolph Virchow said in essence that the fossil was the remains of a modern man afflicted with rickets and osteoporosis. In 1958, at the International Congress of Zoology, A.J.E. Cave stated that his examination of the famous Neanderthal skeleton established that it was simply an old man who had suffered from arthritis. Francis Ivanhoe authored an article that appeared in Nature titled “Was Virchow Right About Neanderthal?” (1970). Virchow had reported that the Neanderthal’s ape-like appearance was due to a condition known as rickets, which is a vitamin-D deficiency characterized by overproduction (and deficient calcification) of bone tissue. The disease causes skeletal deformities, enlargement of the liver and spleen, and generalized tenderness throughout the body. Dr. Cave noted that every Neanderthal child’s skull that had been studied up to that point in time apparently was affected by severe rickets. When rickets occurs in children, it commonly produces a large head due to late closure of the epiphysis and fontanels...

Scientists have debated long and hard concerning whether there exists any difference between Neanderthal specimens and modern humans. One of the world’s foremost authorities on the Neanderthals, Erik Trinkaus, concluded:

Detailed comparisons of Neanderthal skeletal remains with those of modern humans have shown that there is nothing in Neanderthal anatomy that conclusively indicates locomotor, manipulative, intellectual or linguistic abilities inferior to those of modern humans...

...


https://evolutionisntscience.wordpress.com/evolution-frauds/

yeah---you know when things are true, we need to not genuinely examine the evidence and/or make things up in order to show it is so!


rickets my ar...

a collection of nonsense, some outdated, some hogwash from the very beginning, designed to lure simpletons to simpletonia.

For anyone interested in the recent research about Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, take some look here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genome_project

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Pääbo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

For those interested in who Ernst Haeckel was (btw though sympathetic to Darwin, a follower of Lamarck)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel


the rest of your nonsense link is just the same quality of nonsense





Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 5:48:53 AM)

"Show" isn't an improvement on "prove" -- more accurately, science indicates, through testing hypotheses, what seems to work -- and in "established" science, seems to work so well that we can accurately use it at a practical level . . . like electricity uses electrons. But science knows that new information could come along (and regularly does) that shows our understanding was too basic and is in fact in error, because a better explanation came along that explains more things and stands up to testing.

That evolution happened is pretty well established. You really have to tap dance to brush away the geologic record in particular, usually by turning to the Perfectionist Fallacy. If there's a better explanation, it's going to be remarkable.

Sue, some things are certain -- like where the north pole is, but shifts also shift, like where the magnetic pole is, so we keep observing and testing. We know things fall, but gravity is still poorly understood. So physics keep working on it. What they don't do is say (as people used to a one time) that angels push us down to the earth.

But your chanting your mantra about evolution as godless religion is just silly. Repeating something only makes it true in your own mind. There's nothing there that threatens god except in the minds of those who insist (on poor evidence) that every word in the Bible is literally true, so god created the world in 6 days -- despite evidence showing that's not how it happened, god or no.

You are simply promoting your own belief, and mischaracterizing science in the process. Science doesn't give a damn what anyone believes, including the scientist. The tests will show what they show, and the scientist will learn from the results, form new hypotheses, test those, etc. -- it's mode of inquiry, a way of learning, not a wholesale acceptance of dogma.

From a logic standpoint, it's as simple as the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning. Science is inductive, and therefore, the conclusions are never inescapable (though they can be damn likely given what we know so far).

Rather than a weakness or a belief, that's the strength of science -- it assumes we have more to learn, and the arbiter isn't personal or group belief, but the results of testing through careful and replicable methodology. Belief is irrelevant, and to be proven wrong (where we can have certainty) is to learn and to expand knowledge.




Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 5:52:34 AM)

Sex, Drugs, Disasters, and the Extinction of Dinosaurs by Stephen Jay Gould

Science, in its most fundamental definition, is a fruitful mode of inquiry, not a list of enticing conclusions. The conclusions are the consequence, not the essence.

My greatest unhappiness with most popular presentations of science concerns their failure to separate fascinating claims from the methods that scientists use to establish the facts of nature. Journalists, and the public, thrive on controversial and stunning statements. But science is, basically, a way of knowing—in P.B. Medawar’s apt words, “the art of the soluble.” If the growing corps of popular science writers would focus on how scientists develop and defend those fascinating claims, they would make their greatest possible contribution to public understanding.

Consider three ideas, proposed in perfect seriousness to explain that greatest of all titillating puzzles—the extinction of dinosaurs. Since these three notions invoke the primally fascinating themes of our culture—sex, drugs, and violence—they surely reside in the category of fascinating claims. I want to show why two of them rank as silly speculation, while the other represents science at its grandest and most useful.

Science works with testable proposals. If, after much compilation and scrutiny of data, new information continues to affirm a hypothesis, we may accept it provisionally and gain confidence as further evidence mounts. We can never be completely sure that a hypothesis is right, though we may be able to show with confidence that it is wrong. The best scientific hypotheses are also generous and expansive; they suggest extensions and implications that enlighten related, and even far distance, subjects. Simply consider how the idea of evolution has influenced virtually every intellectual field.

Useless speculation, on the other hand, is restrictive. It generates no testable hypothesis, and offers no way to obtain potentially refuting evidence. Please note that I am not speaking of truth or falsity. The speculation may well be true; still, if it provides, in principle, no material for affirmation or rejection, we can make nothing of it. It must simply stand forever as an intriguing idea. Useless speculation turns in on itself and leads nowhere; good science, containing both seeds for its potential refutation and implications for more and different testable knowledge, reaches out. But, enough preaching. Let’s move on to the dinosaurs, and the three proposals for their extinction.

1. Sex: Testes function only in a narrow range of temperature. (Those of mammals hang externally in a scrotal sac because internal body temperatures are too high for their proper function.) A worldwide rise in temperature at the close of the Cretaceous period caused the testes of dinosaurs to stop functioning and led to their extinction by sterilization of males.

2. Drugs: Angiosperms (flowering plants) first evolved toward the end of the dinosaurs’ reign. Many of these plants contain psychoactive agents, avoided by mammals today as a result of their bitter taste. Dinosaurs had neither means to taste the bitterness nor livers
effective enough to detoxify the substances. They died of massive overdoses.

3. Disasters: A large comet or asteroid struck the earth some 65 million years ago, lofting a cloud of dust into the sky and blocking sunlight, thereby suppressing photosynthesis and so drastically lowering world temperatures that dinosaurs and hosts of other creatures
became extinct.

Before analyzing these three tantalizing statements, we must establish a basic ground rule often violated in proposals for the dinosaurs’ demise. There is no separate problem of the extinction of the dinosaurs. Too often we divorce specific events from their wider contexts and systems of cause and effect. The fundamental fact of dinosaur extinction is its synchrony with the demise of so many other groups across a wide range of habitats, from terrestrial to marine.

The history of life has been punctuated by brief episodes of mass extinction. A recent analysis by University of Chicago paleontologists Jack Sepkoski and Dave Raup, based on the best and most exhaustive tabulation of data ever assembled, shows clearly that five episodes of mass dying stand well above the “background” extinctions of normal times (when we consider all mass extinctions, large and small, they seem to fall in a regular 26-million-year cycle...). The Cretaceous debacle, occurring 65 million years ago and separating the Mesozoic and Cenozoic eras of our geological time scale, ranks prominently among the five. Nearly all the marine plankton (single-celled floating creatures) died with geological suddenness; among marine invertebrates, nearly 15 percent of all families perished, including many previously dominant groups, especially the ammonites (relatives of squids in coiled shells). On land, the dinosaurs disappeared after more than 100 million years of unchallenged domination.

In this context, speculations limited to dinosaurs alone ignore the larger phenomenon. We need a coordinated explanation for a system of events that includes the extinction of dinosaurs as one component. Thus it makes little sense, though it may fuel our desire to view mammals as inevitable inheritors of the earth, to guess that dinosaurs died because small mammals ate their eggs (a perennial favorite among untestable speculations). It seems most unlikely that some disaster peculiar to dinosaurs befell these massive beasts—and that the debacle happened to strike just when one of history’s five great dyings had enveloped the earth for completely different reasons.

The testicular theory, an old favorite from the 1940s, had its root in an interesting and thoroughly respectable study of temperature tolerances in the American alligator, published in the staid Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History on 1946 by three experts on living and fossil reptiles—E.H. Colbert, my own first teacher in paleontology; R.B. Cowles; and C.M. Bogert.

The first sentence of their summary reveals a purpose beyond alligators: “This report describes an attempt to infer the reactions of extinct reptiles, especially the dinosaurs, to high temperatures as based upon reactions observed in the modern alligator.” They studied, by rectal thermometry, the body temperatures of alligators under changing conditions of heating and cooling. (Well let’s face it, you wouldn’t want to try sticking a thermometer under a ‘gator’s tongue.) The predictions under test go way back to an old theory first stated by Galileo in the 1630s—the unequal scaling of surfaces and volumes. As an animal, or any object, grows (provided its shape doesn’t change), surface areas must increase more slowly than volumes— since surfaces get larger as length squared, while volumes increase much more rapidly, as length cubed. Therefore, small animal have high ratios of surface to volume, while large animals cover themselves with relatively little surface.

Among cold-blooded animals lacking any physiological mechanism for keeping their temperatures constant, small creatures have a hell of a time keeping warm—because they lose so much heat through their relatively large surfaces. On the other hand, large animals, with their relatively small surfaces, may lose heat so slowly that, once warm, they may maintain effectively constant temperatures against ordinary fluctuations of climate. In fact, the resolution of the “hot- blooded dinosaur” controversy that burned so brightly a few years back may simply be that, while large dinosaurs possessed no physiological mechanism for constant temperature, and were not therefore warm-blooded in the technical sense, their large size and relatively small surface area kept them warm.

Colbert, Cowles, and Bogert compared the warming rates of small and large alligators. As predicted, the small fellows heated up (and cooled down) more quickly. When exposed to a warm sun, a tiny 50-gram (1.76 ounce) alligator heated up one degree Celsius every minute and a half, while a large alligator, 260 times bigger at 13,000 grams (28.7 pounds), took seven and a half minutes to gain a degree. Extrapolating up to an adult 10-ton dinosaur, they concluded that a one-degree rise in body temperature would take eighty-six hours. If large animals absorb heat so slowly (through their relatively small surfaces), they will also be able to shed any excess heat gained when temperatures rise above a favorable level.

The authors then guessed that large dinosaurs lived at or near their optimum temperatures. Cowles suggested that a rise in global temperatures just before the Cretaceous extinction caused the dinosaurs to heat up beyond their optimal tolerance—and, being so large, they couldn’t shed the unwanted heat. (In a most unusual statement within a scientific paper, Colbert and Bogert then explicitly disavowed this speculative extension of their empirical work on alligators.) Cowles conceded that this excess heat probably wasn’t enough to kill or even to enervate the great beasts, but since testes often function within a narrow range of temperature, he proposed that this global rise might have sterilized all the males, causing extinction by natural contraception.
The overdose theory has recently been supported by UCLA psychiatrist Ronald K. Siegel. Siegel has gathered, he claims, more than 2,000 records of animals who, when given access, administer various drugs to themselves—from a mere swig of alcohol to massive doses of the big H. Elephants will swill the equivalent of twenty beers at a time, but do not like alcohol in concentrations greater than 7 percent. In a silly bit of anthropocentric speculation, Siegel states that “elephants drink, perhaps, to forget...the anxiety produced by shrinking rangeland and the competition for food.”

Since fertile imaginations can apply almost any hot idea to the extinction of dinosaurs, Siegel found a way. Flowering plants did not evolve until late in the dinosaurs’ reign. These plants also produced an array of aromatic, amino-acid-based alkaloids—the major group of psychoactive agents. Most mammals are “smart” enough to avoid these potential poisons. The alkaloids simply don’t taste good (they are bitter); in any case, we mammals have livers happily supplied with the capacity to detoxify them. But, Siegel speculates, perhaps dinosaurs could neither taste the bitterness nor detoxify the substances once ingested. He recently told members of the American Psychological Association: “I’m not suggesting that all dinosaurs OD’d on plant drugs, but it certainly was a factor.” He also argued that death by overdose may help explain why so many dinosaur fossils are found in contorted positions. (Do not go gentle into that good night.)

Extraterrestrial catastrophes have long pedigrees in the popular literature of extinction, but the subject exploded again in 1979, after a long lull, when the father-son, physicist-geologist team of Luis and Walter Alvarez proposed that an asteroid, some 10 km in diameter, struck the earth 65 million years ago.
The force of such a collision would be immense, greater by far than the megatonnage of all the world’s nuclear weapons. In trying to reconstruct a scenario that would explain the simultaneous dying of dinosaurs on land and so many creatures in the sea, the Alvarezes proposed that a gigantic dust cloud, generated by particles blown aloft in the impact, would so darken the earth that photosynthesis would cease and temperatures drop precipitously. (Rage, rage against the dying of the light.) The single-celled photosynthetic oceanic plankton, with life cycles measured in weeks, would perish outright, but land plants might survive through the dormancy of their seeds (land plants were not much affected by the Cretaceous extinction, and any adequate theory must account for the curious pattern of differential survival). Dinosaurs would die by starvation and freezing; small, warm-blooded mammals, with more modest requirements for food and better regulation of body temperature, would squeak through. “Let the bastards freeze in the dark,” as bumper stickers of our chauvinistic neighbors in sunbelt states proclaimed several years ago during the Northeast’s winter oil crisis.

All three theories, testicular malfunction, psychoactive overdosing, and asteroidal zapping, grab our attention mightily. As pure phenomenology, they rank about equally high on the hit parade of primal fascination. Yet one represents expansive science, the others restrictive and untestable speculation. The proper criterion lies in evidence and methodology; we must probe behind the superficial fascination of particular claims.

How could we possible decide whether the hypothesis of testicular frying is right or wrong? We would have to know things that the fossil record cannot provide. What temperatures were optimal for dinosaurs? Could they avoid the absorption of excess heat by staying in the shade, or in caves? At what temperatures did their testicles cease to function? Were late Cretaceous climates ever warm enough to drive the internal temperatures of dinosaurs close to this ceiling? Testicles simply don’t fossilize, and how could we infer their temperature tolerances even if they did? In short, Cowles’s hypothesis is only an intriguing speculation leading nowhere. The most damning statement against it appeared right at the conclusion of Colbert, Cowles, and Bogert’s paper, when they admitted: “It is difficult to advance any definite arguments against this hypothesis.” My statement may seem paradoxical—isn’t a hypothesis really good if you can’t devise any arguments against it? Quite the contrary. It is untestable and unusable.

Siegel’s overdosing has even less going for it. At least Cowles extrapolated his conclusion from some good data on alligators. And he didn’t completely violate the primary guideline of siting dinosaur extinction in the context of a general mass dying—for rise in temperature could be the root cause of a general catastrophe, zapping dinosaurs by testicular malfunction and different groups for other reasons. But Siegel’s speculation cannot touch the extinction of ammonites or oceanic plankton (diatoms make their own food with good sweet sunlight; they don’t OD on the chemicals of terrestrial plants). It is simply a gratuitous, attention-grabbing guess. It cannot be tested, for how can we know what dinosaurs tasted and what their livers could do? Livers don’t fossilize any better than testicles.

The hypothesis doesn’t even make any sense in its own context. Angiosperms were in full flower ten million years before dinosaurs went the way of all flesh. Why did it take so long? As for the pains of a chemical death recorded in contortions of fossils, I regret to say (or rather I’m pleased to note for the dinosaurs’ sake) that Siegel’s knowledge of geology must be a bit deficient; muscles contract after death and geological strata rise and fall with motions of the earth’s crust after burial—more than enough reason to distort a fossil’s pristine appearance.

The impact story, on the other hand, has a sound basis in evidence. It can be tested, extended, refined and, if wrong, disproved. The Alvarezes did not just construct an arresting guess for public consumption. They proposed their hypothesis after laborious geochemical studies with Frank Asaro and Helen Michel had revealed a massive increase of iridium in rocks deposited right at the time of the extinction. Iridium, a rare metal of the platinum group, is virtually absent from indigenous rocks of the earth’s crust; most of our iridium arrives on extraterrestrial objects that strike the earth.
The Alvarez hypothesis bore immediate fruit. Based originally on evidence from two European localities, it led geochemists throughout the world to examine other sediments of the same age. They found abnormally high amounts of iridium everywhere—from continental rocks of the western United States to deep sea cores from the South Atlantic.

Cowles proposed his testicular hypothesis in the mid-1940s. Where has it gone since then? Absolutely nowhere, because scientists can do nothing with it. The hypothesis must stand as a curious appendage to a solid study of alligators. Siegel’s overdose scenario will also win a few press notices and fade into oblivion. The Alvarezes’ asteroid falls into a different category altogether, and much of the popular commentary has missed this essential distinction by focusing on the impact and its attendant results, and forgetting what really matters to a scientist—the iridium. If you talk just about asteroids, dust and darkness, you tell stories no better and no more entertaining than fried testicles or terminal trips. It is the iridium—the source of testable evidence—that counts and forges the crucial distinction between speculation and science.

The proof, to twist a phrase, lies in the doing. Cowles’s hypothesis has generated nothing in thirty-five years. Since its proposal in 1979, the Alvarez hypothesis has spawned hundreds of studies, a major conference, and attendant publications. Geologists are fired up. They are looking for iridium at all other extinction boundaries. Every week exposes a new wrinkle in the scientific press. Further evidence that the Cretaceous iridium represents extraterrestrial impact and not indigenous volcanism continues to accumulate. As I revise this essay in November 1984, new data include chemical “signatures” of other isotopes indicating unearthly provenance, glass spherules of a size and sort produced by impact and not by volcanic eruptions, and high-pressure varieties of silica formed (so far as we know) only under the tremendous shock of impact.

My point is simply this: Whatever the eventual outcome (I suspect it will be positive), the Alvarez hypothesis is exciting, fruitful science because it generates tests, provides us with things to do, and expands outward. We are having fun, battling back and forth, moving toward a resolution, and extending the hypothesis beyond its original scope (see “The Cosmic Dance of Siva” for some truly wondrous extensions).
As just one example of the unexpected, distant cross-fertilization that good science engenders, the Alvarez hypothesis made a major contribution to a theme that has riveted public attention in the past few months—so-called nuclear winter. In a speech delivered in April 1982, Luis Alvarez calculated the energy that a ten-kilometer asteroid would release on impact. He compared such an explosion with a full nuclear exchange and implied that all-out nuclear war might unleash similar consequences.

The theme of impact leading to massive dust clouds and falling temperatures formed an important input to the decision of Carl Sagan and a group of colleagues to model the climatic consequences of nuclear holocaust. Full nuclear exchange would probably generate the same kind of dust cloud and darkening that may have wiped out the dinosaurs. Temperatures would drop precipitously and agriculture might become impossible. Avoidance of nuclear war is fundamentally an ethical and political imperative, but we must know the factual consequences to make firm judgments. I am heartened by a final link across disciplines and deep concerns— another criterion, by the way, of science at its best: A recognition of the very phenomenon that made our evolution possible by exterminating the previously dominant dinosaurs and clearing a way for the evolution of large mammals, including us, might actually help to save us from joining those magnificent beasts in contorted poses among the strata of the earth.

From The Flamingo’s Smile (1985, W. W. Norton and Company) Originally published in Discover Magazine, Time Inc., 1984




Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 7:06:12 AM)

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) You also don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works. It's not about "proving" anything. It's a mode of inquiry, based on hypotheses and testing to see what seems to work, until better hypotheses are tested that work better and can explain more things. Believe has nothing to do with it.

Interestingly you seem to "believe" that Science has "proved" Evolution to be a fact, even though you say belief has nothing to do with it and science is not about proving anything.
Then your reading comprehension is really, really poor. Exactly the opposite -- I specify science doesn't "prove" anything, and you figure I "believe" science has "proved" evolution. You're a moron.
Yep, a moron, that understands that you have just you have just agreed with all Creationists that evlolution has not been proved and is not a fact.
Additionally, again, evolution is not one thing, but a different theories, basically (a) the geological strata and fossils and (b) how it happened/happens.
No kidding? I never talked with an Evolutionist that has said that before. [8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That something happened is pretty well established. How that happened has multiple possibilities, some with observable evidence (punctuated equilibrium, for example, in pepper moths and galapagos finches).

Brilliant, yes something happened.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Even if evolution (which is actually more than one theory) one day is thrown over for a better and more inclusive explanation, it still is good science for exactly the reason you cited -- as a mode of inquiry, it led to "some of the most amazing discoveries of the twentieth century."

Yep, that is what I said, even though I "don't understand what science is, what it does, how it works."
Yep. I credited you were you were accurate, as well as accurately noting your remarks reveal a misunderstanding of what science is, what it does, how it works. That misunderstanding persists, clearly.
Perhaps so but it continues to be that Evolutionists that say Evolution is proven and a fact.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
2) Creationism, on the other hand, isn't based on anything except "here's what I think." There's nothing to test, there's nothing new to learn, it's just a belief. Could be true? OK, I can grant that, just as any speculation, like aliens planted us here, "could" be true. But with nothing to test, it's nothing more than a cool idea.

Although some would say Creation does have a basis other than "here's what I think" and that it is more than just a "cool idea".
OK. What is it? All I'm seeing is a belief the Bible is literal.
I don't believe I brought the Bible into this, why do you bring it up?

As for "proof", the problem is you believe in a material world but live in a world that is not based on materialism and thus can't understand "proof" that is not based on materialism. Have you looked into the studies of Quantum mechanics lately? Those studies are beginning to show that material reality results from consciousness not consciousness from material reality.

Thus "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If people were honest about it, as you phrased it, they wouldn't pretend Creationism therefor is "an equally valid 'theory' of how we got here." Not until you figure out a way to test it. Again, you display your misunderstanding of science, here what "theory" means in the scientific sense. Gravity is "just a theory." But when you drop shit, it still falls. It's testable and works.

Stop being obtuse, if a person can see colors there is no need to "test" whether there is such a thing as colors. Likewise with Gravity, as you say you drop shit, it falls, there is no need to "test" it, it just works. The world around us exists there is no need to "test" it, testing it does nothing for its reality, only for our understanding.
Well, here's where you and science part company. Again.
No, I don't but then I don't expect you to understand.
There's plenty to test--and much to learn in the process. What is gravity? How does it work? Is it an attractive force? How does it attract at a distance?
Did I say there wasn't plenty to test? No, I just said reality does not depend on testing as you seemed to be saying.
Hypothesis and testing has brought us to today's understanding of curved space/time, that things actually don't "fall," but rather are forced toward earth by the extreme curvature caused by the earth's mass of the surrounding space/time. Einstein's idea was considered wacky until observations of stars during a solar eclipse showed that indeed, gravity bends light. Did you pick that up seeing colors?
So? I didn't say there wasn't much to be learned in the world around us, I just said reality doesn't depend on your testing it to exist.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Where has Creationism taken us? Nowhere. It's DOA. There's no way to learn from it. It's just something some people think. There's no inquiry to take form it. And that's why it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe!

Well, I would say "Creationism" hasn't gotten you anywhere, that is not true of others.
That's what I just said.
No, you didn't, you said; "Us" and I was just pointing out that your "Us" does not include everyone.

As for your statement; "it has nothing to do with science -- even IF a divine Creator made the Universe", that would be absolutely untrue. If a divine Creator made the Universe, then who's laws is science investigating? If a divine Creator made the Universe, then science is an attempt to better know God, even if those very scientists deny the existence of God.
OK--so how exactly are you going to test this Creationist idea?
You are the one who feels Creation needs testing, not me, so you come up with something.
Fact is, what we already know from observation/testing is that the strict 6 days interpretation of Creationists is false.
As I pointed out, philosophically, God could have created everything we see yesterday and our "testing" would only see whatever God wants us to see.

As for the "strict 6 days interpretation of Creationists"; the word "day" is an interpretation of the Hebrew word יוֹם yowm which is a period of time which may or may not be 24 hours, much like our use of day as in; "in your grandfather's day" which is not 24 hours. So I tend to see the "creative day" in thousands of years and not in hours.
That a God is behind it is a belief. And it likely will remain so, unless we discover some amazing new way to test for that.
The same is true of evolution unless someone comes up with a time machine.
I'm actually a spiritual person. But I know the difference between what's science and what I believe. Even spiritual experiences are subjective. Important perhaps -- but not replicable, not describable in terms of methodology, and not a mode of inquiry in the sense of science.
That you are spiritual is good to hear but why do try to minimize it? Something being subjective does not make it any less real, in fact even science is beginning to realize that reality is subjective at least at the Quantum level.
Nor do I see science as any threat at all to this spirituality. Because they aren't rival belief systems.
You are correct, they are not rival systems. I see them as complementary, the yin and yang of the world we live in.
One is purely belief. The other is observing the world, forming hypotheses, testing them, and learning from the results, forming new hypotheses, testing them, revising knowledge, etc.
Personally, I see both coming from "observing the world" and learning from those observations, although how one goes about learning from those observations may be different.
As long as you don't get that, you don't understand science.
You can get off this "you don't understand science" jag now. I understand science better than most, that is why I keep having to explain to all these Evolutionists that keep saying Evolution has been proved and is a fact, that it just isn't so.






Musicmystery -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (7/19/2017 7:50:26 AM)

Sounds to me like you talk to "evolutionists" who also don't understand what science is.

AT the same time, so say it's not "proven" isn't the same as the reality that the evidence that evolution occurred is strong. How it happened is a more varied matter.

FFS, even Genesis shows God creating the world in stages, with man last.




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