RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster

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Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 7:26:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making. The distinction is that the Big Bang is based on empirical evidence and measurement which leave an open ended possibility as and when new data comes in. Big Bang? Empirical evidence? Red/blue shift does nothing to prove any kind of 'bang' of anything what so ever, only proves movement, the 'bang' is a complete unfounded ungrounded theory that is purely ASSumed and is nothing more than a science best guess and here you are trying to make your own religion out of nothing more than a speculation pretending that red shift has anything to do with proving the hypothesis. Faith in science-ism religion! [8\|] Seems all the atheists can do on this board is create a god of their own!

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 7:35:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So I am afraid that, if your intention is to advance a persuasive argument, you are going to have to do a lot better than: 'It's better to believe in something than nothing'. Perhaps it might be, but then again perhaps it might not be. So it neither adds weight to your argument nor does it advance the discussion an iota. Oh okay, so, show me where the belief in nothing has advanced anything. If you want to argue that a belief in say, fascism/racism/ultra-nationalism/Wahhabism/Salafism is better than declining to believing in such evils, please be my guest. But unless and until you are prepared to argue those extremely dubious propositions, it would appear that not even you are persuaded by your own claim that it's better to believe in "something" rather than nothing. Whatever the case, unless you can post something intelligent that actually advances the discussion, I don't see any point in participating any further PUHlease, if you want to advance your bang theory to have any value greater than bullshit you need to validate 'where did all the alleged mass come from that you presume went BANG'? Was it just there? Seems you are in 'exactly' the same boat with the people you enjoy throwing stones at, the creationists. Nice orwellian oxymoron, you cant stand on your soapbox barking that its evil without believing in it.

blnymph -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 7:35:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles ... I'm not sure that you know what logic is, I don't believe anything I have said is illogical. Again your belief: but then look at this piece of not only ill logic but also completely unproven statement from your post 181 which seems to be the basis of your belief, and not even worth being called a myth. quote: If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here. "equally valid" ... I beg your pardon, honestly ...

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 7:40:29 AM)
read my last post above; 'where did all the alleged mass come from that you presume went BANG'? Seems you created your own god and religion only to pretend you have none the whole premise of your theory disintegrates right there. Face you have no answers, only 'atheist-faith'.

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 7:42:19 AM)
So any of the atheists have anything more to advance their position than circular arguments? I'd be very interested in hearing them.

mnottertail -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 11:21:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne read my last post above; 'where did all the alleged mass come from that you presume went BANG'? Seems you created your own god and religion only to pretend you have none the whole premise of your theory disintegrates right there. Face you have no answers, only 'atheist-faith'. doesnt take mass, only energy, you see, they are interchangeable. Thats been proven to death.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:10:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 one more time for all you comrades. evolution is a godless religion masquerading as "science." More unmitigated bullshit.

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making. The distinction is that the Big Bang is based on empirical evidence and measurement which leave an open ended possibility as and when new data comes in. Big Bang? Empirical evidence? Red/blue shift does nothing to prove any kind of 'bang' of anything what so ever, only proves movement, the 'bang' is a complete unfounded ungrounded theory that is purely ASSumed and is nothing more than a science best guess and here you are trying to make your own religion out of nothing more than a speculation pretending that red shift has anything to do with proving the hypothesis. Faith in science-ism religion! [8\|] Seems all the atheists can do on this board is create a god of their own! Yeah, yeah, yeah! A religion for atheists. Wot rot! What then are we to do with the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation? Just ignore it? Precise measurements of the CMB are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. The CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.[4] The spectral radiance dEν/dν peaks at 160.23 GHz, in the microwave range of frequencies. The photon energy of CMB photons is about 6.626534 × 10−4 eV. Alternatively, if spectral radiance is defined as dEλ/dλ, then the peak wavelength is 1.063 mm. The glow is very nearly uniform in all directions, but the tiny residual variations show a very specific pattern, the same as that expected of a fairly uniformly distributed hot gas that has expanded to the current size of the universe. Shall we just ignore its presence? Or maybe pretend it is radiation coming from Heaven? Would that make you a happy altar boy?

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:17:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You missed the point, Miles. Lung fish and primitive tetrapods are alive today just like the coelacanth is. Sonovagun, living not-so-missing links! so whats the point did they like 'evolutionate' into squirrels er somthin? .....they evolutionated in gods. So we search for the god of links. Surely there is one, there must be one, history has a 'god' for everything else.

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:22:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne read my last post above; 'where did all the alleged mass come from that you presume went BANG'? Seems you created your own god and religion only to pretend you have none the whole premise of your theory disintegrates right there. Face you have no answers, only 'atheist-faith'. I discussed all this shit at length above. Read it please.

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:24:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You missed the point, Miles. Lung fish and primitive tetrapods are alive today just like the coelacanth is. Sonovagun, living not-so-missing links! so whats the point did they like 'evolutionate' into squirrels er somthin? .....they evolutionated in gods. So we search for the god of links. Surely there is one, there must be one, history has a 'god' for everything else. Good point, MR!!!

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph If "creation" requires a "creator" who or what creates that creator then, and the creator of the creator, and the creator of the creator's creator ... creationism as such is nonsense Then do you believe the "Big Bang" nonsense that something came from nothing? Or what they now believe that there was something there that the "Big Bang" came from? And where did the something that was there before the "Big Bang" come from? Did it come from nothing or was it always there, much like those who believe in God believe he was always there? So it seems you believe in nothing whereas those who believe in God at least believe in something. .....but the pope was ready to make it all church dogma. Explain that one to me. So just what are the 'believers' to 'believe' in ? Pray tell, what will be the next church dogma and the next and the next.....?

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:41:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph If "creation" requires a "creator" who or what creates that creator then, and the creator of the creator, and the creator of the creator's creator ... creationism as such is nonsense Then do you believe the "Big Bang" nonsense that something came from nothing? Or what they now believe that there was something there that the "Big Bang" came from? And where did the something that was there before the "Big Bang" come from? Did it come from nothing or was it always there, much like those who believe in God believe he was always there? So it seems you believe in nothing whereas those who believe in God at least believe in something. The Big Bang Theory itself is based upon measurements of spectrometer Red Shift in light coming from distant planets. Scientists have also identified and measured the Cosmological Microwave Radiation that is "left over" from the Big Bang. Sort of like static. In fact, depending how old you are, if you go back to the days when television stations did not broadcast 24 hours but signed off in the wee hours and went black except for a hissing noise, that hissing noise was the CMR reaching us through our television antennae. BTW, if you are going to speculate in the realm of metaphysics, you might consider there are three ontological choices: There was nothing from which matter arose. There always was a Creator before there was nothing. Or there always was matter and energy. The last one is just as valid as the Creator myth but obviously not as satisfying. Of course, the thought is that before the Big Bang there was a massive singularity (a pinpoint of matter and energy) that overcame the black hole gravity and exploded. Unfortunately, that has the same First Cause problem as who created the Creator? Eternal matter/energy is just as valid as the spooky eternal Creator. How do you know which is true? The reason it is not so satisfying is that it holds out no hope of everlasting life for humans. I should add that Red Shift measurements do suggest that the galaxies are moving away from one another so the universe is expanding. Maybe. Vincent, Tweak, they all demonstrate that visceral need, that great hook disposing all reason that there really can't be any such thing as death...not really. There just can't be. I have an idea. Long ago, a book was written that describes a life that lived a certain way (in repentance) for your original sin of which we are all supposed to be guilty, that once done, we all can enjoy life ever-lasting. We will live forever in paradise. Let's rely upon that, go about making some fucking money and then repent and have life ever-lasting. What do you think ? I know, it sounds like a 'god delusion' and it may be but we have to go by something. we can't just go through life like this really is only a...one-way trip.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:55:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph If "creation" requires a "creator" who or what creates that creator then, and the creator of the creator, and the creator of the creator's creator ... creationism as such is nonsense Then do you believe the "Big Bang" nonsense that something came from nothing? Or what they now believe that there was something there that the "Big Bang" came from? And where did the something that was there before the "Big Bang" come from? Did it come from nothing or was it always there, much like those who believe in God believe he was always there? So it seems you believe in nothing whereas those who believe in God at least believe in something. It is not a matter of believing or not, it is a matter of logic. I believe that if I don't pay the electric bill, NVEnergy will cut off my power. I believe that if I quit drinking soda, I'll lose a pound a day and soon...just fade away. I believe that I will not have to root for the Raiders just because they are coming to Vegas. These are my beliefs alright but they are mine and personal but for all of those others, they are all going to hell unless they believe them too. Seems logical to me.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 12:56:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I'm not sure that it's a clever argument to claim that it's better to believe in "something". There's a long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something" when the entire world would have been far better off had they believed in nothing. Self proclaimed believers in ideologies and belief systems that claim to be absolutely right have far more blood on their hands than nihilists. I fail to see any merit in the argument that it's better to believe in one version of a fairy tale than to with hold judgement until the question is resolved. I do see a lot of potential dangers in this position, and am reminded of those dangers every time a religious fundamentalist (of whatever hue) insists against all reason that their particular fairy tale is the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth and threatens to kill anyone who disrupts their childish certainties. Sure there is a "long list of murderous ideologues who all believed in "something"" but then what about the even longer list of those who believed in "something" and were not "murderous ideologues" and whose belief changed the world for the better? An inconvenient truth? Examples ?

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 1:20:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making. Well then you make our point too. With observable phenomena, with measurable distinctions of its nature always being researched, we have a cause to celebrate...the scientific research into the origin of existence. When stipulating instead that a god created all of this (6000 years ago ?) and as told only by historical hearsay, then there is little cause to celebrate. Nothing to see...observe. Wait, I just thought. A whole new profile 'God of kinky pleasure'..yea, that's the ticket. I'll be Phallus, the God of kinky, sexual pleasure. Thoughts already spring to mass quantities of virginal nuns coming to my neighborhood for 'spiritual' gatherings to learn the pleasures of God. (me) Better to believe in something...rather than nothing. It just might work.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 1:52:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making. The distinction is that the Big Bang is based on empirical evidence and measurement which leave an open ended possibility as and when new data comes in. Big Bang? Empirical evidence? Red/blue shift does nothing to prove any kind of 'bang' of anything what so ever, only proves movement, the 'bang' is a complete unfounded ungrounded theory that is purely ASSumed and is nothing more than a science best guess and here you are trying to make your own religion out of nothing more than a speculation pretending that red shift has anything to do with proving the hypothesis. Faith in science-ism religion! [8\|] Seems all the atheists can do on this board is create a god of their own! The 'big bang' is what science is... a postulation based on the factual and quite observable changes in color and position and is what all research is made of...incremental discoveries each one adding to the transformation of theory into fact. Pascal's principle (hydraulics) started out as a theory. Through observable, measured phenomenon, i.e. science, has proven Pascal's theory...to be a fact with which, he opened the door to the industrial revolution, without which, we'd still be on horseback, stuck on the ground. I offer anyone the opportunity to show me the observable phenomenon, the measurements, the peer review, the facts demonstrated by those...to even get me closer to proving the existence of god. .....yet, I require no one. In fact RO, as I've written before, I feel it is a stark even brazen idea to suggest I or anyone 'needs' to believe in any god, anybody and everybody needs to believe in something, and to suggest that I/we create a 'religion' out of this disbelief or we are less than you, less deserving of anything at all deserving in life or are somehow defective. That is the worse kind of immorality and prejudice that is also too often the progenitor of violence. In fact, usually the opposite is true. It is the 'god-fearing' allegedly devout practitioners that all throughout history, have been violent subscribers to such spiritual despotism and fascism. And to think, these professional practitioners otherwise known as priests, are swindling the parents out of money and for lying through their teeth to our children in Sunday school each week.

Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 5:10:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So I am afraid that, if your intention is to advance a persuasive argument, you are going to have to do a lot better than: 'It's better to believe in something than nothing'. Perhaps it might be, but then again perhaps it might not be. So it neither adds weight to your argument nor does it advance the discussion an iota. Oh okay, so, show me where the belief in nothing has advanced anything. If you want to argue that a belief in say, fascism/racism/ultra-nationalism/Wahhabism/Salafism is better than declining to believing in such evils, please be my guest. But unless and until you are prepared to argue those extremely dubious propositions, it would appear that not even you are persuaded by your own claim that it's better to believe in "something" rather than nothing. Whatever the case, unless you can post something intelligent that actually advances the discussion, I don't see any point in participating any further You are the one that wants to discuss this, so do it or get off it. I asked you a simple question and you seem unable to answer it. So, if you have nothing more than insults to say, it would seem you are already not participating.

Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 6:19:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So? Reasonable or not, "scientific" or not, as you say the "Big Bang" still suffers from the "First Cause Fallacy", which was the point I was making. The distinction is that the Big Bang is based on empirical evidence and measurement which leave an open ended possibility as and when new data comes in. Whereas Creationism(acknowledging your concerns about the word but you gave me no alternative) is derived from the thoughts and perceptions of desert wanderers circa ten centuries BCE, and in competition with other creation mythologies from other parts of the world. The original conjurers of Genesis are not likely to come back and provide us with new data, not that they had any to begin with. So, Genesis is at a dead end. But we do not yet know the end of the story of the Big Bang. Bottom line is that you are unable to defend your position without pivoting off Evolution of the Universe and Evolution of Life in the Universe. Both are continuing adventures at the moment. In trying to defend your position you are obliged to either criticize science or borrow from science. That is an intellectually dishonest endeavor and no longer worthy engaging. Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting. I hope we meet again in a different thread. I am convinced you are a pleasant enough fellow but we have exhausted the topic here. Cya!!![:)] You ever stop to think how those “desert wanderers circa ten centuries BCE” without all your “empirical evidence and measurement“ and when all the other competing creation mythologies were talking about the backs of turtles, crocodiles and elephants and such, were able to come up with an order of creation that took “scientists” with all their “empirical evidence and measurement”, thousands of years to come up with and call “Evolution”? A lucky guess? As for having to “either criticize science or borrow from science” to “defend my position”, you fail to realize that if God hadn’t put it there, there would be nothing for your “scientists” to measure, thus you and they are borrowing their “science” from God. Didn’t you say that was an “intellectually dishonest endeavor”? As for; “Until you stop depending on the "god of the gaps" or the "god who could also do that" your arguments are no longer interesting.”; so, you want me to stop believing in God so I can be interesting to you? Thanks but no thanks, being interesting to you is not that important.

Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/2/2017 6:22:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles ... I'm not sure that you know what logic is, I don't believe anything I have said is illogical. Again your belief: but then look at this piece of not only ill logic but also completely unproven statement from your post 181 which seems to be the basis of your belief, and not even worth being called a myth. quote: If people were honest about the subject they would have to agree that Creation, not the young earth Creationist nonsense, but Creation by an intelligent God is an equally valid “theory” of how we got here. "equally valid" ... I beg your pardon, honestly ... I thought you wanted to use logic, my mistake.

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