RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster

RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (Full Version)

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Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 1:46:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers ... In fact, usually the opposite is true. It is the 'god-fearing' allegedly devout practitioners that all throughout history, have been violent subscribers to such spiritual despotism and fascism. ... You must know that there have been atheists that have been violent despots as well. The problem is not religion or atheism the problem is that mankind is rotting at the core and something has to be done about it. There may have been but I don't know of any. However, for the fascist and yes, the big 3 too, religion is a ripe fruit of cooperation even obedience of society at large in a highly religious and faithful country. Much easier to take control using the church and many despots did just that. Again you need to take a closer look at history, there have been Religions that not gone along with despots and have lead their followers in peaceful revolt. Examples ? We discuss the power not the revolt against it but I am interested. I will give you one example: During WWII Jehovah's Witnesses as a group would not give the Hitler salute and would not fight in the armies of Germany and so they were interred in the Concentration Camps with the Jews. They were told all they had to do to be released was to sign a paper that said that they renounced their religion and swear allegiance to Hitler and yet very few signed. Interestingly at the same time they were being persecuted in the United States and Canada and many were sent to prison.

tweakabelle -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 2:39:01 AM)
I am not sure that holding up the example of some smaller religions that have opposed dictatorships and tyranny is representative of religions as a whole. True there have been and still are some religions and religiously-motivated folks who have stood tall for human rights and freedoms. But there has been a lot more that have sided with the status quo in resisting progressive changes, or even actively opposed liberation movements and/or progressive changes of various kinds. The records of the larger established churches has been particularly poor, unless the regime in question is actively implementing programs that attack the core beliefs of those religions, such as happened in Eastern Europe under communist rule. The records of many churches on womens' and/or gay issues are especially reprehensible, and continues to be in many cases. Large numbers of churches continue to preach that homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder, a sinful abomination. Even on issues where the moral high ground was absolutely clear, the records of religions is mixed. For instance, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa preached that apartheid was supported by the Bible. Many southern Protestant churches in the USA actively and openly supported the retention of Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. The ongoing Biblically-inspired support for Israeli aggressions, ethnic cleansing and apartheid from the US's 'Christian Zionist' sects is another case in point. In fairness, I should add that many religiously-motivated folk and some churches have worked and continue to work tirelessly and often heroically against oppressors too. To sum it up, the record of religions and the religious in supporting human rights liberty and political freedom has been mixed - at best religions have helped lead the struggle for freedom but at worst the records of some religions and religious folk has been woeful, truly lamentable.

WickedsDesire -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 5:15:49 AM)
Think I am doing Monty Python today Monty Python - Stoning

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 5:28:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I am not sure that holding up the example of some smaller religions that have opposed dictatorships and tyranny is representative of religions as a whole. True there have been and still are some religions and religiously-motivated folks who have stood tall for human rights and freedoms. But there has been a lot more that have sided with the status quo in resisting progressive changes, or even actively opposed liberation movements and/or progressive changes of various kinds. The records of the larger established churches has been particularly poor, unless the regime in question is actively implementing programs that attack the core beliefs of those religions, such as happened in Eastern Europe under communist rule. The records of many churches on womens' and/or gay issues are especially reprehensible, and continues to be in many cases. Large numbers of churches continue to preach that homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder, a sinful abomination. Even on issues where the moral high ground was absolutely clear, the records of religions is mixed. For instance, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa preached that apartheid was supported by the Bible. Many southern Protestant churches in the USA actively and openly supported the retention of Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. The ongoing Biblically-inspired support for Israeli aggressions, ethnic cleansing and apartheid from the US's 'Christian Zionist' sects is another case in point. In fairness, I should add that many religiously-motivated folk and some churches have worked and continue to work tirelessly and often heroically against oppressors too. To sum it up, the record of religions and the religious in supporting human rights liberty and political freedom has been mixed - at best religions have helped lead the struggle for freedom but at worst the records of some religions and religious folk has been woeful, truly lamentable. Jehovah's Witnesses were able to go to the Supreme Court and successfully plead their case, so they were hardly persecuted here. What remains hidden is the bravery of some Catholic Bishops in supporting the liberation of indigenous peoples in South America, opening them (the priests) up to assassination, and also condemnation by Pope John Paul who ironically takes so much credit for assisting the Polish (his home nation) workers' union resistances against the Soviets. As far as the Indios of South and Central America, however, he quickly reassigned sympathetic clergy. The white conquistador Spanish rulers enjoyed his favor while Ronald Reagan shoveled in arms and counter-revolutionaries to kill nuns and squash the impoverished indigos. A shameful page in the history of the church of the Christ.

blnymph -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 6:44:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers It was the right question, you just don't have any answer and particularly in view of the advancements made in the discovery and adaptations made in DNA due to the 'natural consequences of evolutionary thought.' Playing the Nazi card is of no bearing here at all just because the science was there, and as all Germany did, didn't mean [it] had to be used for war or for racial manipulation etc. So again, the science or secular humanism didn't cause the problems...psychopathy did. In fact the Nazis were catholic, observed catholic holidays as the Vatican did on all of Hitler's birthdays. The Vatican veritably celebrated the ascension of Hitler as sent by god to avenge the Jewish murder of Jesus. No "they" were not, or only insofar as the catholic percentage of overall population (slightly predominantly protestant btw) and the Pope congratulated in the same way as any other head of any state including former Chancellors, French Premier Ministres, British PMs, American presidents ... And of course "social darwinism" is about the same kind of pseudo-scientific nonsense as creationism or Lysenkoism. Happens when politicians and preachers need something to keep people stupid.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 6:51:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick FR You know, this whole debate is fucking stupid. Of course God created everything, the real question is if God is an independent sentient entity outside of the laws of physics, or is God simply the laws of physics. I incline to the latter view, that the laws of physics are themselves the action of a non-self aware divine existence. Maybe DC...just maybe you are right. Love to meet [it] sometime. Well if you subscribe to my actual religious view, then you already have met God, because YOU are God. So am I. We all are God. The downside is that so is the mosquito I just killed. God is everything, and everything is God.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 6:57:35 AM)
quote: Didn't you write that you favored creationism being taught in public schools ? Not as science, but in a comparative religions course, sure, why not?

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 6:58:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle To sum it up, the record of religions and the religious in supporting human rights liberty and political freedom has been mixed - at best religions have helped lead the struggle for freedom but at worst the records of some religions and religious folk has been woeful, truly lamentable. Especially the newly formed varieties of secular atheist religions, aka - ZioJiz.

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:00:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: Didn't you write that you favored creationism being taught in public schools ? Not as science, but in a comparative religions course, sure, why not? the problem is you would wind up with teachers teaching it through the atheist filter, not actual religios authorites who knew what they were talking about and could give a proper presentation. Welcome to the colorful wold of ZioJiz

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:02:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick FR You know, this whole debate is fucking stupid. Of course God created everything, the real question is if God is an independent sentient entity outside of the laws of physics, or is God simply the laws of physics. I incline to the latter view, that the laws of physics are themselves the action of a non-self aware divine existence. Maybe DC...just maybe you are right. Love to meet [it] sometime. Well if you subscribe to my actual religious view, then you already have met God, because YOU are God. So am I. We all are God. The downside is that so is the mosquito I just killed. God is everything, and everything is God. The Christain variety of religions teaches that we are created in the 'image and likeness' of God but are NOT God.

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:07:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne oh contrare, in fact its you who has to show me an openly professed atheist society with thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not murder as their dogma that predate believers if athiests want to claim it, otherwise it plain and simply pliagerism and theft from believers. Show me somebody who's been burned at the stake,beheaded,or stoned to death in the name of atheism the appicable name [atheism] applied is the belief system 'in fact' used to commit the crime, not the professed or in most cases accused belief system.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:34:00 AM)
Evolution is not wrong, it is a proven fact that speciation happens, it has been observed in action. Every year there are new strains of influenza, how does that come about? Through evolution. Have you heard of MRSA? That means Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. It was unknown prior to the introduction of methicillin to fight penicillin resistant strains of staphylococcus. and with the continued use of methicillan, the incidence of MRSA infections rose steadily That is evolution, that is natural selection in action right there. The mutation that provides resistance to methicillan originally conferred no advantages to the staph bacteria, but when methicillan started being used, the usual non-resistant strain started getting wiped out, the previously non-advantageous mutation became advantageous, and since those bacterium with it were not wiped out, they reproduced and do they are now increasingly common. That is evolution, evolution we have caused to take place and have studied and tracked. There is no need for a fossil record to "prove" the viability of evolution as an explanation of speciation, we have the validation of the theory going on right before our eyes, and we even know the trigger that caused it to happen, because we were the trigger. Need an example of evolution in higher life forms? OK, how about indisputable proof of evolution of human beings within recorded history (there are several you know). Just look at measles. Measles is today, and was for all of recorded history a relatively benign childhood illness in the old world. But when Europeans reached the Americas, it ran through the population like a combine through a wheat field. It was, to the native Americans, a deadly disease more deadly than the black death. Yet today it is no more dangerous to native Americans than it is to Europeans. How can that be? How is it that a disease that is relatively benign in one population is virulently fatal in another. What's more, how can it be that that disease can become relatively benign in that population to which it was originally virulently fatal? Clearly something changed, either something about the measles virus, or something about the native Americans. So, what changed? If evolution is bullshit, then explain what happened and how it happened. Why was measles deadly to native Americans but not to Europeans, and why is it no longer deadly to native Americans? I will tell you what happened, evolution happened. The process of natural selection happened.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:40:16 AM)
quote: The Christain variety of religions teaches that we are created in the 'image and likeness' of God but are NOT God. Yeah, I know, I was raised Catholic, and it is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:46:47 AM)
quote: the problem is you would wind up with teachers teaching it through the atheist filter Well that is the only way to teach a comparative religion course. quote: actual religios authorites who knew what they were talking about And who would those be? A Catholic priest? Which sort of Catholic? Roman Catholic? Eastern Catholic? Or maybe a Hindu priest? Or a Muslim imam? Or maybe a Siberian shaman? Which theist filter is the correct one through which to teach a comparative religion course?

WickedsDesire -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:47:26 AM)
Especially the newly formed varieties of secular atheist religions, aka - ZioJiz....care to explain that to me - I am serious, and ZioJizz stands for? JewSpunk? Catholics and protestants have just about finished killing each other in the UK - I think. I, the former, married the latter a very long time ago...ive told that story before havent I? Hmm evolution - huwmans do seem an anomaly to me. One branch/tree of life Origin of life? [image]http://images.memes.com/meme/30936.jpg[/image]

Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 7:52:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I am not sure that holding up the example of some smaller religions that have opposed dictatorships and tyranny is representative of religions as a whole. I never said it did nor was I trying to prove it did. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle True there have been and still are some religions and religiously-motivated folks who have stood tall for human rights and freedoms. But there has been a lot more that have sided with the status quo in resisting progressive changes, or even actively opposed liberation movements and/or progressive changes of various kinds. Interestingly the Bible points out that there would be many who would say they were serving God but that only a few would actually be accepted as doing so. Perhaps one of these “small” groups is the “true” religion and the rest of the religions are weeds that have grown up amongst the wheat and are not representative of what God had in mind. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The records of the larger established churches has been particularly poor, unless the regime in question is actively implementing programs that attack the core beliefs of those religions, such as happened in Eastern Europe under communist rule. The records of many churches on womens' and/or gay issues are especially reprehensible, and continues to be in many cases. Large numbers of churches continue to preach that homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder, a sinful abomination. Speaking from a hypothetical viewpoint, if there is a God who created man would he not know whether something was good or not for mankind? And would not “his religion” support that view? quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Even on issues where the moral high ground was absolutely clear, the records of religions is mixed. For instance, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa preached that apartheid was supported by the Bible. Many southern Protestant churches in the USA actively and openly supported the retention of Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. The ongoing Biblically-inspired support for Israeli aggressions, ethnic cleansing and apartheid from the US's 'Christian Zionist' sects is another case in point. Again, as I pointed out, there may be a lot of “fool’s gold” out there and just because everybody seems to think it is the real thing, it is not. Pointing out that “fool’s gold” doesn’t act like real “gold” doesn’t prove that real the “gold” is “fool’s gold” as well. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle In fairness, I should add that many religiously-motivated folk and some churches have worked and continue to work tirelessly and often heroically against oppressors too. Thank you for that admission. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle To sum it up, the record of religions and the religious in supporting human rights liberty and political freedom has been mixed - at best religions have helped lead the struggle for freedom but at worst the records of some religions and religious folk has been woeful, truly lamentable. What would you say prejudice is? Isn’t it when a whole group is judged for what some have done and not for what they have done themselves. Let me make another hypothetical, what if God exists and there is another powerful “super being” that opposes him and that other “super being” wants no one to find their way to God? Wouldn’t one of the best things to do be, making hundreds if not thousands of other religions, all calling themselves the "true religion", to stand beside the “true religion” and using them to make all religions look so bad, so that most people would give up even trying to look for God or at least for the "true religion"?

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 8:06:01 AM)
quote: if there is a God who created man would he not know whether something was good or not for mankind? Possibly, but not necessarily, and the available evidence supports the opposite view.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 8:22:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Yes, there is war and killing, so we are reduced to who first to commit 'acts of war.' But while politics and hegemony at times does take a break, religion at least since the big 3, came along...didn't miss a beat until the enlightenment and yes, for religious reasons, while Islam ridiculously...struggles on. I apologize, I have no clue what you are saying here, would you mind rephrasing it so someone with my limited intelligence can understand it? There is war and hegemony and that goes on but until the enlightenment, all religions had no problem killing non-believers. These religions all were guilty and for centuries and while political leaders took breaks, religion did not. Islam had no enlightenment.

WhoreMods -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 8:32:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Need an example of evolution in higher life forms? OK, how about indisputable proof of evolution of human beings within recorded history (there are several you know). Just look at measles. Measles is today, and was for all of recorded history a relatively benign childhood illness in the old world. But when Europeans reached the Americas, it ran through the population like a combine through a wheat field. It was, to the native Americans, a deadly disease more deadly than the black death. Yet today it is no more dangerous to native Americans than it is to Europeans. How can that be? How is it that a disease that is relatively benign in one population is virulently fatal in another. What's more, how can it be that that disease can become relatively benign in that population to which it was originally virulently fatal? The impact of alcohol on the Indians is often cited as another proof of natural selection, on that level: they hadn't spent several thousand years weeding out people who were unusually susceptible to alcohol poisoning from their gene pool the way we did in Europe.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/6/2017 8:33:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Neither King or Ghandi had the power to be murderous tyrants. What? Yea, right, if either of these fine examples of nonviolence had the “power” they would have quickly turned into “murderous tyrants”. As of now my conversation with you is over. You see, I don't do that and have never done that. Look at someone's actions, then go back and claim that because of their non-belief. So nowhere in any logic does it follow that because they didn't have power, these men of peace didn't become violent but give them power and claim their beliefs or non belief that made them murderous tyrants. As I've written, it's the psychopathy.

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