RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:17:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The flip side of this is that if the town and its people could successfully integrate newcomers then there is no intrinsic reason why any town in the West generally couldn't do the same. In other places, the factors operating integration would probably be less significant and integration easier to accomplish. However one significant feature is the absence of any organised racist groups protesting against immigration and/or multiculturalism.*

One lesson from the Irish example is that if people are left to their own devices, successful adaption and integration can happen anywhere.


The second lesson, and some posters brought it up already, is that adaptation and assimilation of both necessary for successful integration. For there to be successful integration, the newcomers have to accept that they will have to assimilate into the host culture more than the host culture will adapt to them. And, that's likely been the biggest issue with immigrants coming into the US and successfully integrating.




Musicmystery -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:21:34 AM)

And you think immigrants don't get that?

Or do you think they should totally reject their culture?




WhoreMods -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:25:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And you think immigrants don't get that?

Or do you think they should totally reject their culture?

Maybe the Norwegian immigrants in Dakota should STFU about Norway day, then?
[;)]




DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And you think immigrants don't get that?
Or do you think they should totally reject their culture?


Not all immigrants do, MM. And, I'd bet areas with more of those immigrants will have less success at integration.

That was my point. Maybe you should stand up when you read my posts from now on. It's a scientific fact that the further away from the ground your head is, the fewer things will go over it.




WhoreMods -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:34:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's a scientific fact that the further away from the ground your head is, the fewer things will go over it.


You're claiming to be Drax the Destroyer, rather than a Sontaran now?




Musicmystery -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:38:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And you think immigrants don't get that?
Or do you think they should totally reject their culture?


Not all immigrants do, MM. And, I'd bet areas with more of those immigrants will have less success at integration.

That was my point. Maybe you should stand up when you read my posts from now on. It's a scientific fact that the further away from the ground your head is, the fewer things will go over it.


There are quite a few native born citizens who don't seem to be able to assimilate either.

Pull your head out of the clouds, and you'll better see what's going on down here.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 11:41:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And you think immigrants don't get that?
Or do you think they should totally reject their culture?

Not all immigrants do, MM. And, I'd bet areas with more of those immigrants will have less success at integration.
That was my point. Maybe you should stand up when you read my posts from now on. It's a scientific fact that the further away from the ground your head is, the fewer things will go over it.

There are quite a few native born citizens who don't seem to be able to assimilate either.


I'd totally agree with that, if you'd have said they weren't able to adapt, rather than assimilate.

quote:

Pull your head out of the clouds, and you'll better see what's going on down here.


I know what's going on down there, and most of it's a damn shame.





vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 4:42:44 PM)

quote:

Not all immigrants do, MM. And, I'd bet areas with more of those immigrants will have less success at integration.


And there is the nub of the problem, DS, you have only your own speculation about immigrant attitudes toward American culture. Assimilation is not a one way endevour; success depends heavily on how receptive the native population is. Have you hugged an immigrant today?

Immigrants to the US face numerous challenges as they struggle to assimilate into American society while trying to retain their cultural and ethnic identity. These immigrants have been the victims of many racially based riots, police brutality and looting of their businesses by locals.
The dominant society also has many biases that make it difficult for immigrants to be accepted into the economic, political and social structure. However, technological innovations such as telephone and e-mail have eased the process of retaining their ethnic identity as they adjust to the mainstream.
SOURCE

It is not necessarily a binary, either/or process. In the past, despite native prejudice most immigrant groups are well assimilated by the third generation.
My parents were immigrants but I have lived a life assimilated or integrated or whatever you wish to call it and still retain a pleasure in my old world identity.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/18/2017 6:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Not all immigrants do, MM. And, I'd bet areas with more of those immigrants will have less success at integration.

And there is the nub of the problem, DS, you have only your own speculation about immigrant attitudes toward American culture. Assimilation is not a one way endevour; success depends heavily on how receptive the native population is. Have you hugged an immigrant today?


Where did I say it was a one-way endeavor, Vince? As a matter of fact, in Post#21, I said:
    quote:

    The second lesson, and some posters brought it up already, is that adaptation and assimilation of both necessary for successful integration. For there to be successful integration, the newcomers have to accept that they will have to assimilate into the host culture more than the host culture will adapt to them. And, that's likely been the biggest issue with immigrants coming into the US and successfully integrating.


Outside missing a wrong word (used 'of' instead of 'are' linking adaptation and assimilation to both being necessary), I made the assertion that the host culture does have to adapt, too.

quote:

Immigrants to the US face numerous challenges as they struggle to assimilate into American society while trying to retain their cultural and ethnic identity. These immigrants have been the victims of many racially based riots, police brutality and looting of their businesses by locals.
The dominant society also has many biases that make it difficult for immigrants to be accepted into the economic, political and social structure. However, technological innovations such as telephone and e-mail have eased the process of retaining their ethnic identity as they adjust to the mainstream.
SOURCE
It is not necessarily a binary, either/or process. In the past, despite native prejudice most immigrant groups are well assimilated by the third generation.
My parents were immigrants but I have lived a life assimilated or integrated or whatever you wish to call it and still retain a pleasure in my old world identity.


I agree most immigrant groups assimilate well. However, my comment was that those groups who have more members unwilling to assimilate, or not wiling to assimilate enough will have the most difficulty fully integrating into the host culture. That was my point.
IMO, it's not the requirement of the host culture to adjust more than the incoming immigrants assimilate.





vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 7:02:26 AM)

quote:

I agree most immigrant groups assimilate well. However, my comment was that those groups who have more members unwilling to assimilate, or not wiling to assimilate enough will have the most difficulty fully integrating into the host culture. That was my point.
IMO, it's not the requirement of the host culture to adjust more than the incoming immigrants assimilate.


Just speculation until you come up with specific examples of immigrant groups who have large numbers unwilling to assimilate.

The host culture does indeed have a requirement to adjust to massive inflow of an "other" culture for the sake of domestic tranquility, which is its mandate. Historically, however, the host culture has been exploitative of new comers or has displayed its lack of welcome through disparaging mythology and selective negative stories used to taint the whole group who were allowed entry. Seems a wasteful contradiction. Sure, come abroad but you wont be welcome much.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 8:01:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The host culture does indeed have a requirement to adjust to massive inflow of an "other" culture for the sake of domestic tranquility, which is its mandate.


Mandate? It is good to welcome legal immigrants with open arms. Yes, that does require the host culture to adapt and adjust to a degree, but the onus is still on the immigrants to do the bulk of the changing.

quote:

Historically, however, the host culture has been exploitative of new comers or has displayed its lack of welcome through disparaging mythology and selective negative stories used to taint the whole group who were allowed entry. Seems a wasteful contradiction. Sure, come abroad but you wont be welcome much.


Every immigrant group has had it's time in the withering glare of the general public. The Irish and Italians weren't beloved newcomers. The Chinese have had to "pay their dues." Let's not forget the Japanese interment camps during WWII (which isn't exactly the same as what immigrants normally face). By and large, all these groups have embraced enough of our culture to integrate into our society just fine. And, many of those groups haven't lost touch of their ethnic cultures, either.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 8:30:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


Right

Mixing a medieval bloodthirsty cult that demands total obedience to a primitive prudish god, with modern free peoples who enjoy their sex and drugs and walking around half naked can cause issues

Leftists try to pretend they know better but they're literally insane



I think you are quite uncharitable to all those fundamentalist Christian cults




BoscoX -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 9:19:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


Right

Mixing a medieval bloodthirsty cult that demands total obedience to a primitive prudish god, with modern free peoples who enjoy their sex and drugs and walking around half naked can cause issues

Leftists try to pretend they know better but they're literally insane



I think you are quite uncharitable to all those fundamentalist Christian cults


Yeah, whenever another bomb goes off everybody's knee-jerk reaction is to wonder if it's the Jehovah's Witnesses again

Or maybe the Amish




blnymph -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:16:14 AM)

Probably the 2312 inhabitants of Ballyhaunis,Co.Mayo got a bit more brains, backbone, guts than you can ever dream of. Not to forget decent sports.




BoscoX -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:29:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

Probably the 2312 inhabitants of Ballyhaunis,Co.Mayo got a bit more brains, backbone, guts than you can ever dream of. Not to forget decent sports.


According to your propaganda rags, sure

British laws against free speech there only back up such lies, too




vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:35:52 AM)

quote:

Every immigrant group has had it's time in the withering glare of the general public. The Irish and Italians weren't beloved newcomers. The Chinese have had to "pay their dues."

What I read in your words is that every immigrant group has been discriminated, exploited, and persecuted. If not in your words then in our history. America has not been so welcoming of "others" as we like to brag that we are an immigrant nation. That's just "feel good" self-indulgence.




blnymph -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

Probably the 2312 inhabitants of Ballyhaunis,Co.Mayo got a bit more brains, backbone, guts than you can ever dream of. Not to forget decent sports.


According to your propaganda rags, sure

British laws against free speech there only back up such lies, too




While your propaganda rags didn't keep you informed that Ballyhaunis, Co. Mayo (Ireland, Republic, of; Éire) is not british ...
and a few other basic pieces of information you didn't get told ever.




BoscoX -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:41:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Every immigrant group has had it's time in the withering glare of the general public. The Irish and Italians weren't beloved newcomers. The Chinese have had to "pay their dues."

What I read in your words is that every immigrant group has been discriminated, exploited, and persecuted. If not in your words then in our history. America has not been so welcoming of "others" as we like to brag that we are an immigrant nation. That's just "feel good" self-indulgence.


Invaders have traditionally been defended against everywhere on the planet, not just America

Still are, too.

When Christian churches are welcome in Mecca or many of these other 99.999% Muslim-only hotbeds of hate and persecution come talk with me about how great multiculturalism is




kdsub -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:42:01 AM)

I don't believe there is another nation in the world today that has benefited more from multiculturalism than the United States. Our nation was populated by a mixture of cultures and it worked out quite well I would say. But... I believe there is a good reason why it has worked better here, at least in the past, than in many other areas of the world. Many coming here were persecuted by and or disenchanted with the culture they were leaving. They were ready and open to a new culture with freedom that allowed them to do it.

Yes there are areas of this country populated by immigrants that want to stay isolated and keep their own cultures but they are the minority I believe. In my area there was an influx of Bosnian immigrants that has revitalized parts of St. Louis. They kept their food and many traditions but in just a generation have become as American as myself. They are a real credit to America.

All the above said that does not mean the US should be lax in screening immigrants or consider how immigration is affecting employment or support systems. Otherwise there may be times when the US out of self interest may need to limit immigration when appropriate.

Butch




BoscoX -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/19/2017 10:42:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

Probably the 2312 inhabitants of Ballyhaunis,Co.Mayo got a bit more brains, backbone, guts than you can ever dream of. Not to forget decent sports.


According to your propaganda rags, sure

British laws against free speech there only back up such lies, too




While your propaganda rags didn't keep you informed that Ballyhaunis, Co. Mayo (Ireland, Republic, of; Éire) is not british ...
and a few other basic pieces of information you didn't get told ever.


You got me

I don't respect your intelligence or integrity enough to look into the things you post in any more than just a very cursory way




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