The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs

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vincentML -> The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 12:43:34 PM)
PORTLAND, Ore. — The 911 caller had reported a man with a samurai sword, lunging at people on the waterfront. It was evening, and when the police arrived, they saw the man pacing the beach and called to him. He responded by throwing a rock at the embankment where they stood. They shouted to him from a sheriff’s boat; he threw another rock. They told him to drop the sword; he said he would kill them. He started to leave the beach, and after warning him, they shot him in the leg with a beanbag gun. He turned back, still carrying the four-foot blade. At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him. People with mental illnesses are overrepresented among civilians involved in police shootings: Twenty-five percent or more of people fatally shot by the police have had a mental disorder, according to various analyses. In Chicago, for example, police officers killed a 19-year-old mentally ill man, Quintonio LeGrier, in December after the police said he had come at them with a baseball bat. In Denver, Paul Castaway, 35, who had a history of mental illness, was fatally shot by the police last year after they said he moved “dangerously close” to them, holding a knife to his own throat. Similar encounters have occurred in Albuquerque, Dallas, Indianapolis and other cities. Studies have found that the training can alter the way officers view people with mental illness. And the approach, which teaches officers ways to defuse potentially violent encounters before force becomes necessary, is useful for officers facing any volatile situation, even if a mental health crisis is not involved, law enforcement experts say. We have a fractured healthcare system in the United States. Since the 1970s when untold numbers of mentally ill patients were liberated from 19th century Bedlams, the largest mental health institutions in the United States have been the Los Angeles County Jail, the Chicago city jail, and the New York City jail. We have a new reality and our police departments act as if they are unaware of it. It is time for the Public Safety services in our backward nation to come up with some protocols that will reduce the number of harmful encounters with the mentally ill, who are now mostly either at home or living on the streets and are vulnerable to police violence, unintended as it may be. SOURCE

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 1:06:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML PORTLAND, Ore. — The 911 caller had reported a man with a samurai sword, lunging at people on the waterfront. It was evening, and when the police arrived, they saw the man pacing the beach and called to him. He responded by throwing a rock at the embankment where they stood. They shouted to him from a sheriff’s boat; he threw another rock. They told him to drop the sword; he said he would kill them. He started to leave the beach, and after warning him, they shot him in the leg with a beanbag gun. He turned back, still carrying the four-foot blade. At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him. People with mental illnesses are overrepresented among civilians involved in police shootings: Twenty-five percent or more of people fatally shot by the police have had a mental disorder, according to various analyses. In Chicago, for example, police officers killed a 19-year-old mentally ill man, Quintonio LeGrier, in December after the police said he had come at them with a baseball bat. In Denver, Paul Castaway, 35, who had a history of mental illness, was fatally shot by the police last year after they said he moved “dangerously close” to them, holding a knife to his own throat. Similar encounters have occurred in Albuquerque, Dallas, Indianapolis and other cities. Studies have found that the training can alter the way officers view people with mental illness. And the approach, which teaches officers ways to defuse potentially violent encounters before force becomes necessary, is useful for officers facing any volatile situation, even if a mental health crisis is not involved, law enforcement experts say. We have a fractured healthcare system in the United States. Since the 1970s when untold numbers of mentally ill patients were liberated from 19th century Bedlams, the largest mental health institutions in the United States have been the Los Angeles County Jail, the Chicago city jail, and the New York City jail. We have a new reality and our police departments act as if they are unaware of it. It is time for the Public Safety services in our backward nation to come up with some protocols that will reduce the number of harmful encounters with the mentally ill, who are now mostly either at home or living on the streets and are vulnerable to police violence, unintended as it may be. SOURCE What do you think the cops should have done in the case of Mr. Samurai?

WhoreMods -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 3:45:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML PORTLAND, Ore. — The 911 caller had reported a man with a samurai sword, lunging at people on the waterfront. It was evening, and when the police arrived, they saw the man pacing the beach and called to him. He responded by throwing a rock at the embankment where they stood. They shouted to him from a sheriff’s boat; he threw another rock. They told him to drop the sword; he said he would kill them. He started to leave the beach, and after warning him, they shot him in the leg with a beanbag gun. He turned back, still carrying the four-foot blade. At 2:30 a.m., after spending hours trying to engage the man, the officers decided to “disengage,” and they withdrew, leaving the man on the beach. A search at daylight found no signs of him. People with mental illnesses are overrepresented among civilians involved in police shootings: Twenty-five percent or more of people fatally shot by the police have had a mental disorder, according to various analyses. In Chicago, for example, police officers killed a 19-year-old mentally ill man, Quintonio LeGrier, in December after the police said he had come at them with a baseball bat. In Denver, Paul Castaway, 35, who had a history of mental illness, was fatally shot by the police last year after they said he moved “dangerously close” to them, holding a knife to his own throat. Similar encounters have occurred in Albuquerque, Dallas, Indianapolis and other cities. Studies have found that the training can alter the way officers view people with mental illness. And the approach, which teaches officers ways to defuse potentially violent encounters before force becomes necessary, is useful for officers facing any volatile situation, even if a mental health crisis is not involved, law enforcement experts say. We have a fractured healthcare system in the United States. Since the 1970s when untold numbers of mentally ill patients were liberated from 19th century Bedlams, the largest mental health institutions in the United States have been the Los Angeles County Jail, the Chicago city jail, and the New York City jail. We have a new reality and our police departments act as if they are unaware of it. It is time for the Public Safety services in our backward nation to come up with some protocols that will reduce the number of harmful encounters with the mentally ill, who are now mostly either at home or living on the streets and are vulnerable to police violence, unintended as it may be. SOURCE What do you think the cops should have done in the case of Mr. Samurai? I think lithium's still used a lot to treat mood swings.

kdsub -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 4:27:36 PM)
Myself I think it was a mistake to withdraw... a taser would have been my choice. Thank heavens nothing happened after they withdrew...but what would they be saying if the man killed or injured someone with his sword. Police have enough to learn without spending time becoming mental health experts. What they should learn are the non- lethal ways to subdue the mentally ill and get them to mental health experts. Butch

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 6:04:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods I think lithium's still used a lot to treat mood swings. Tranq darts with lithium? They didn't get too close to the guy with a 4' sword....

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 6:09:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Myself I think it was a mistake to withdraw... a taser would have been my choice. Thank heavens nothing happened after they withdrew...but what would they be saying if the man killed or injured someone with his sword. Police have enough to learn without spending time becoming mental health experts. What they should learn are the non- lethal ways to subdue the mentally ill and get them to mental health experts. Butch If a bean bag gun and hours of attempting to engage the guy wasn't a good solution, I'm not sure an escalation to a taser would have been acceptable to Vincent, either. Personally, I'm with you. I'd liked to have seen them attempt to engage without any violence, but then taze the guy when he tried to leave the beach. And, like you, I'm relieved nothing horrible happened after the police withdrew.

Nnanji -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 6:13:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Myself I think it was a mistake to withdraw... a taser would have been my choice. Thank heavens nothing happened after they withdrew...but what would they be saying if the man killed or injured someone with his sword. Police have enough to learn without spending time becoming mental health experts. What they should learn are the non- lethal ways to subdue the mentally ill and get them to mental health experts. Butch So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay."

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 6:57:45 PM)
quote: What do you think the cops should have done in the case of Mr. Samurai? There was an interesting debate related in the article and officers separated along the two obvious lines. You take a risk if you try to seize the man and you take a risk if you walk away and leave him alone. The writer’s point was that at least by having the discussion awareness was raised. That won’t satisfy your question, however. I can understand why. It is a dilemma. Aside from the city being sued which is to my mind really extraneous to any discussion here and now, you have the public safety to consider. So, let’s examine the risks. In that particular case, late at night in a rather desolate area the risk to public safety is minimal, while there is a high certainty that the mentally ill person will probably end up dead if he is accosted. We have the classical dilemma. Do you sacrifice the one for the many? Another risk element is that the mentally ill are not dangerous unless they are provoked. The fact that it was early in the morning; there were very few, if any, people around; the likelihood that the behavior patterns of the mentally ill do not predict danger; and given the training that the police had, they probably did the correct thing. But boy! I would imagine they held their breaths the rest of the morning. I guess everything is a gamble in the public safety area. This particular sort of gamble is unique so we might throw up our hands at it and take the easy way out. I mean after all who would there be to witness some poor bugger being shot at 3 o’clock in the morning down by the river? What are your thoughts on it?

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:02:00 PM)
quote: I think lithium's still used a lot to treat mood swings. A man with a samurai sword is not having a mood swing. Mood swings are what you see on this discussion board.

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:12:11 PM)
quote: So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay." He was lunging at people with a sword when the 911 call was made. There is no mention cops saw him lunging at anyone with a sword. In fact is no mention of any of the people.

Nnanji -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay." He was lunging at people with a sword when the 911 call was made. There is no mention cops saw him lunging at anyone with a sword. In fact is no mention of any of the people. Okay. Perhaps then the cops saw he was settling down or determined the people who called it in were over excited. It is not illigal to be armed in public in Oregon. In fact many people open carry, it's very common.

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:25:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Myself I think it was a mistake to withdraw... a taser would have been my choice. Thank heavens nothing happened after they withdrew...but what would they be saying if the man killed or injured someone with his sword. Police have enough to learn without spending time becoming mental health experts. What they should learn are the non- lethal ways to subdue the mentally ill and get them to mental health experts. Butch No, you can’t change my story. Okay I am going to be a stickler about the evidence. You have a 911 call alleging that the guy was swinging the sword at people. By the time the cops get there, there are no people. You don’t know that he’s mentally ill. Although you can have a pretty good guess. Assuming you don’t want to kill this citizen how long are you prepared to wait before making a move on him? In the case we talked about of the woman veteran shot by the police in her apartment, she was not endangering anyone from the information we have. Should the police have walked away from her? Is police convenience more important than the life of someone who is acting erratically? Your second paragraph is unclear to me. You seem to be saying two opposite things at the same time. Maybe I just misread you.

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:27:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay." He was lunging at people with a sword when the 911 call was made. There is no mention cops saw him lunging at anyone with a sword. In fact is no mention of any of the people. Okay. Perhaps then the cops saw he was settling down or determined the people who called it in were over excited. It is not illigal to be armed in public in Oregon. In fact many people open carry, it's very common. Good points.

Nnanji -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 7:30:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay." He was lunging at people with a sword when the 911 call was made. There is no mention cops saw him lunging at anyone with a sword. In fact is no mention of any of the people. Okay. Perhaps then the cops saw he was settling down or determined the people who called it in were over excited. It is not illigal to be armed in public in Oregon. In fact many people open carry, it's very common. Good points. It could be that he was a martial artist out on the beach practicing forms with his sword and the people who called it in were ninnies.

vincentML -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/29/2017 8:42:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So a guy is lunging at people with a sword. The police are called. The guy threatens them. They shoot him with a beanbag shotgun shell. He doesn't put down the sword or change his behavior for hours. And the police say, "well he's not going to behave himself, so let's just go and do something else. Maybe this will turn out okay." He was lunging at people with a sword when the 911 call was made. There is no mention cops saw him lunging at anyone with a sword. In fact is no mention of any of the people. Okay. Perhaps then the cops saw he was settling down or determined the people who called it in were over excited. It is not illigal to be armed in public in Oregon. In fact many people open carry, it's very common. I thought about this, about the 911 callers. That really changes the scenario that was in the New York Times article. Callers see something happening outside are unlikely to want to hang around to be questioned by the police. So I think we have to go back and look at the two choices that are available. Try to arrest the sword carrier or walk away. And if we try to arrest him on what charges?

WhoreMods -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/30/2017 4:25:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I think lithium's still used a lot to treat mood swings. A man with a samurai sword is not having a mood swing. Mood swings are what you see on this discussion board. Is there such a thing as a lithium intervention, then? It might shut some of the shriller trumptooners on here up.

MrRodgers -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/30/2017 5:12:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I think lithium's still used a lot to treat mood swings. A man with a samurai sword is not having a mood swing. Mood swings are what you see on this discussion board. Pretty good but why not a net ? Throw a big net over the guy and he's all done.

MrRodgers -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/30/2017 5:15:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Is police convenience more important than the life of someone who is acting erratically? Yep, shoot first and ask questions later...the American way.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Mentally Ill Have Police Targets On Their Backs (8/30/2017 7:54:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: What do you think the cops should have done in the case of Mr. Samurai? There was an interesting debate related in the article and officers separated along the two obvious lines. You take a risk if you try to seize the man and you take a risk if you walk away and leave him alone. The writer’s point was that at least by having the discussion awareness was raised. That won’t satisfy your question, however. I can understand why. It is a dilemma. Aside from the city being sued which is to my mind really extraneous to any discussion here and now, you have the public safety to consider. So, let’s examine the risks. In that particular case, late at night in a rather desolate area the risk to public safety is minimal, while there is a high certainty that the mentally ill person will probably end up dead if he is accosted. We have the classical dilemma. Do you sacrifice the one for the many? Another risk element is that the mentally ill are not dangerous unless they are provoked. The fact that it was early in the morning; there were very few, if any, people around; the likelihood that the behavior patterns of the mentally ill do not predict danger; and given the training that the police had, they probably did the correct thing. But boy! I would imagine they held their breaths the rest of the morning. I guess everything is a gamble in the public safety area. This particular sort of gamble is unique so we might throw up our hands at it and take the easy way out. I mean after all who would there be to witness some poor bugger being shot at 3 o’clock in the morning down by the river? What are your thoughts on it? All that to say you think the "boys in blue" did the right thing? The article you linked to does not jibe with the Subject line you created. My thoughts were put out there in Post#7: quote: If a bean bag gun and hours of attempting to engage the guy wasn't a good solution, I'm not sure an escalation to a taser would have been acceptable to Vincent, either. Personally, I'm with you. I'd liked to have seen them attempt to engage without any violence, but then taze the guy when he tried to leave the beach. And, like you, I'm relieved nothing horrible happened after the police withdrew.

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