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The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marches on! - 9/2/2017 10:31:49 AM   
stef


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EPA Chief Scott Pruitt: "Science Shouldn't Dictate American Policy"

You know the drill. The head of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Scott Pruitt, has been
asked about something scientific and has said something ludicrous in response.

Shortly after announcing that he wants climate researchers to "debate" climate deniers on live TV,
he gave a characteristically painful interview to a Texas radio show. Just after appearing to endorse
peer-reviewed science, he added that “science should not be something that’s just thrown about to
try and dictate policy in Washington DC.”

The idea that science should not dictate nor influence policy is insane. It really doesn’t need to be
said that science is one of the key foundations of modern society.

JFK couldn’t have made his famous, rousing speech about heading to the Moon without the advice
and expertise of scientific experts, just as lawmakers couldn’t have appropriated funds for the
groundbreaking LIGO experiments that detected gravitational waves for the very first time.

Forget America – what about the world? Without science dictating policy, smallpox wouldn’t have
been eradicated, hundreds of millions of children would not be alive, and we wouldn’t know that
climate change was an existential threat to life on Earth.

Science, as has often been said, is true whether you believe in it or not. It is a constantly
self-correcting, unbiased system, one through which our collective understanding of the cosmos
advances with each discovery.

Politics is a method in which those with the most convincing argument win elections, regardless
of how factual those arguments are.

These two systems are quite different, but in an ideal world, science is used to help the most
powerful people on the planet understand what is true and what is not. Evidence is better
than reading our future in tea leaves.

When people like Pruitt say that science should stay out of politics, it’s immediately clear that
they have an ulterior motive other than concern about the dilution of one or the other. This
type of phrase is wielded by those who are unhappy that science is pointing something out to
them that they dislike.

Very few people looked up at the solar eclipse and thought that science was a junk field of
academia. Plenty of those with vested interests do, however, consider climate science and
vaccines to be incredibly suspect. The reason why is incredibly simple: Acceptance of an eclipse
probably doesn’t lose this administration votes, but acceptance of climate science does.

So is it any surprise that the Trump administration is doing all it can to destroy the reputation
of scientists and the scientific method at any opportunity? Of course not – but it doesn’t make
it any less outrageous.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 10:45:49 AM   
Real0ne


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and the first thing it does is begin with a false narrative, bravo epa.

Science, as has often been said, is true whether you believe in it or not. It is a constantly self-correcting, unbiased system, one through which our collective understanding of the cosmos advances with each discovery.


Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.

Gubmint agencies tell you what to think what to feel and the religion you will believe in


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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 10:58:01 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 11:03:10 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

and the first thing it does is begin with a false narrative, bravo epa.

Science, as has often been said, is true whether you believe in it or not. It is a constantly self-correcting, unbiased system, one through which our collective understanding of the cosmos advances with each discovery.


Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.

Gubmint agencies tell you what to think what to feel and the religion you will believe in


You've only scratched the surface. Science is the only real field subjected to constant peer review. Economics is just accepted as some new theory...no peer review necessary. Same with law. It is made up by the highest court.

Technological advancement is the bane to the capitalist and his accommodating govt. If it increases profits, fine. If it competes with my profits...then [he] and govt. legislate to keep it out of the marketplace. (a reason why the world will suffer the use of all of its fuel for what is becoming very old even 'ancient' generation 2 heat energy)

If capitalism was a true free market, then you'd see far greater investment in generation 3 energy. We will not. We will burn every ounce of fossil fuels because of the profits.

Most of the opposition to science is from the right and their need for the status quo...see above.

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Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 11:03:45 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 11:07:34 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...


Okay, but that little story is just about competitive capitalism burying innovations and has nothing to do with the actual science that led to the airborne electricity.
It seems to me the genius Pruitt is railing against science itself, NOT the scientific community or the government or whatever RealOne is so upset about.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 11:09:03 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...


Okay, but that story is just about capitalist competitiveness and has nothing to do with the science that led to the airborne electricity.
It seems to me the genius Pruitt is railing against science itself, NOT the scientific community or the government or whatever RealOne is so upset about.

You forgot the idiot you're talking to's selective blindness: for him science = the people who fucked poor Tesla over and shafted Wilhelm Reich as well.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 12:28:20 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...


fucking idiot, you need to stick to what you excel at which is quantum bullshit and leave science and physics up to those who are qualified to discuss it



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 12:49:10 PM   
WhoreMods


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Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...


fucking idiot, you need to stick to what you excel at which is quantum bullshit and leave science and physics up to those who are qualified to discuss it



Find somebody who does and I will. The shite you spout about Tesla in here, on the other hand, proves that you don't have a single clue about physics.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 1:07:30 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Patently false, politics determines its ability to correct if at all, Nikola Tesla the real inventor of radio being fucked over by Marconian politics comes immediately to mind.


How the fuck did you ever convince yourself that what you are saying makes sense?
If politics interferes with science then how is science to blame for that?


Because Marconi (rather than Edison, for some weird reason) was trying to fuck up Tesla's career and hide his brilliance from history.
It had nothing to do with Tesla's conviction that radio waves were airborne electricity that could be used for wireless power transmission...


fucking idiot, you need to stick to what you excel at which is quantum bullshit and leave science and physics up to those who are qualified to discuss it


So I guess today professor RealGone, PhD in the most Sciencey Science in Scientific History, has taught us that step one of the scientific method is 'destroy the work of your peers for profit'. That is the essence of all science itself... also physics.

Step 2 is what? Not even mount a basic attempt to understand what you're talking about while insisting that you're actually qualified to have discussions about anything ever?

I mean, you're obviously not interested in even spending 20 seconds to look up and skim a Wikipedia article to avoid looking like a total fucking idiot, and since I haven't done this here, I must assume that it's a big part of why I will never truly understand science or physics.

I'm just not in your league, RealGone.
It must be so lonely at the top.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 1:19:05 PM   
bounty44


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there are so many layers of irony in this its difficult to know where to begin.

but you might be able to discern some of them by figuring out why im responding to it, and you, with: smug pompous ass.

(in reply to stef)
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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 2:01:03 PM   
Musicmystery


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Interesting counter-argument with no claims whatsoever other than pretending some sort of unspoken insight and your default personal attack.

It's ironic that anyone would oppose basing policy on factual data.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 3:14:12 PM   
vincentML


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Does Bounty ever miss an opportunity for personal attacks? And I suspect this thread is not going in the direction that stef hoped.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 3:44:47 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
And I suspect this thread is not going in the direction that stef hoped.


An anti-science idiot is in charge of the EPA so that the anti-science politicians in the GOP can keep their anti-science voter base happy.
Said base will now attempt to prove that, despite Pruitt's statements that science has no place in politics, it is not they who are anti-science, it is the liberals.
Wanting science to influence the decisions of politicians is anti-science, wanting to keep science out of all decision-making is pro-science.
They will argue this, guaranteed.

Or, like RealGone, they will misinterpret everything in a really fucked up way and pretend that burying technology/conclusions/etc. is somehow what science does to itself.
Or possibly just change the subject to Obama/Hillary/Al Gore.

But to anyone who isn't hopelessly desperately partisan, or who just happens to have aligned themselves with the smarter side here, Pruitt's statements will ultimately demonstrate one of the many painfully humiliating contradictions endemic to the mindset of the American right.
It will make us wonder just what their threshold for defending stupidity is, and they will shock us by raising it to new, unthinkable levels every time.

Somehow, they have not only accepted things like this, but have also transformed them into points of pride... on this board they seem to stop short of dismissing all science, psychology, academia and culture as 'librul bullshit', but elsewhere that is what will happen when they are slapped this hard in the face by the blatant stupidity/evil of the absolutely horrifying fucking morons they helped place in positions of power.


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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 5:47:09 PM   
Edwird


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Pruitt isn't so much "anti-science" as he is just being 'pro-business' with a very narrow understanding of what that means, like most Republicans.

Pruitt made his mark as Oklahoma AG by stopping investigation against those dumping chicken shit into Oklahoma rivers as soon as he got into office (the metaphorical sense of that is so telling). He directed instead that there be "further discussion" on the issue.

Typical Republican response. If the shit falls on somebody else's plate, then all we need is a discussion about it. While making laws to ensure that the shit they create falls on somebody else's plate.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 6:01:49 PM   
Edwird


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Sharks letting the lawyers go by with out harm; "as professional courtesy."

Republicans letting chicken shit flow free in the rivers; likewise.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 6:18:02 PM   
AtUrCervix


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This is actually (for once)...fascinating stuff...awesome comments:

(My comments below).

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


EPA Chief Scott Pruitt: "Science Shouldn't Dictate American Policy"

You know the drill. The head of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Scott Pruitt, has been
asked about something scientific and has said something ludicrous in response.

Shortly after announcing that he wants climate researchers to "debate" climate deniers on live TV,
he gave a characteristically painful interview to a Texas radio show. Just after appearing to endorse
peer-reviewed science, he added that “science should not be something that’s just thrown about to
try and dictate policy in Washington DC.


Sounds logical to me.

The idea that science should not dictate nor influence policy is insane. It really doesn’t need to be
said that science is one of the key foundations of modern society.

Actually...that's not even remotely what he said.


JFK couldn’t have made his famous, rousing speech about heading to the Moon without the advice
and expertise of scientific experts, just as lawmakers couldn’t have appropriated funds for the
groundbreaking LIGO experiments that detected gravitational waves for the very first time.

Indeed...in fact...when JFK made his speech...he relied HEAVILY on science (and scientists) because...we were still cultivating crops with (UNBELIEVABLY) small backhoes.

Forget America – what about the world? Without science dictating policy, smallpox wouldn’t have
been eradicated, hundreds of millions of children would not be alive, and we wouldn’t know that
climate change was an existential threat to life on Earth.

Well...just for the record....I'm fairly confident that NO ONE is unclear that all of the above was deduced with and because of...the best of science...and the best....scientists.


Science, as has often been said, is true whether you believe in it or not. It is a constantly
self-correcting, unbiased system, one through which our collective understanding of the cosmos
advances with each discovery.

I'm fairly confident no one debates that.

Politics is a method in which those with the most convincing argument win elections, regardless
of how factual those arguments are.

(See "The Prince", by Machiavelli....I think this has been covered...as in...prior to 1600....well.....before....now).


QED: Shit has changed...but...not much has changed.

These two systems are quite different, but in an ideal world, science is used to help the most
powerful people on the planet understand what is true and what is not. Evidence is better
than reading our future in tea leaves.

I'm sorry....I'm fairly confident we were discussing....Politics....and Science....you seem to have now moved on to science and "evidence"...which is fine...but...please let me (and the rest of the peeps here) know when we've changed the topic please...are we now switching the discussion?

When people like Pruitt say that science should stay out of politics, it’s immediately clear that
they have an ulterior motive other than concern about the dilution of one or the other. This
type of phrase is wielded by those who are unhappy that science is pointing something out to
them that they dislike.

Pruitt is expressing his opinion...yours may differ. (It's a beautiful thing).

Very few people looked up at the solar eclipse and thought that science was a junk field of
academia. Plenty of those with vested interests do, however, consider climate science and
vaccines to be incredibly suspect. The reason why is incredibly simple: Acceptance of an eclipse
probably doesn’t lose this administration votes, but acceptance of climate science does.

I don't know how to debate that, considering the sentence structure is at best....discombobulated.

So is it any surprise that the Trump administration is doing all it can to destroy the reputation
of scientists and the scientific method at any opportunity? Of course not – but it doesn’t make
it any less outrageous.

It makes no sense because...Trump is a fucking imbecile.

(Was there a point in all this?)




< Message edited by AtUrCervix -- 9/2/2017 6:49:21 PM >

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 7:30:29 PM   
Lucylastic


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This is hugely worrying for texas people, in the flood areas

AP: Hurricane Harvey Floods Toxic Waste Sites, With The EPA Missing In Action.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ap-superfund-harvey-epa-chemicals

HIGHLANDS, Texas (AP) — As Dwight Chandler sipped beer and swept out the thick muck caked inside his devastated home, he worried whether Harvey’s floodwaters had also washed in pollution from the old acid pit just a couple blocks away.

Long a center of the nation’s petrochemical industry, the Houston metro area has more than a dozen such Superfund sites, designated by the Environmental Protection Agency as being among America’s most intensely contaminated places. Many are now flooded, with the risk that waters were stirring dangerous sediment.


The Highlands Acid Pit site near Chandler’s home was filled in the 1950s with toxic sludge and sulfuric acid from oil and gas operations. Though 22,000 cubic yards of hazardous waste and soil were excavated from the acid pits in the 1980s, the site is still considered a potential threat to groundwater, and EPA maintains monitoring wells there.

When he was growing up in Highlands, Chandler, now 62, said he and his friends used to swim in the by-then abandoned pit.

“My daddy talks about having bird dogs down there and to run and the acid would eat the pads off their feet,” he recounted on Thursday. “We didn’t know any better.”

The Associated Press visited five Superfund sites in and around Houston during the flooding. All had been inundated with water; some were only accessible only by boat.

EPA spokeswoman Amy Graham could not immediately provide details on when agency experts would inspect the Houston-area sites. She said Friday that EPA staff had checked on two other Superfund sites in Corpus Christi and found no significant damage.

“We will begin to assess other sites after flood waters recede in those areas,” Graham said.

At the Highlands Acid Pit on Thursday, the Keep Out sign on the barbed-wire fence encircling the 3.3-acre site barely peeked above the churning water from the nearby San Jacinto River.

A fishing bobber was caught in the chain link, and the air smelled bitter. A rusted incinerator sat just behind the fence, poking out of the murky soup.

Across the road at what appeared to be a more recently operational plant, a pair of tall white tanks had tipped over into a heap of twisted steel. It was not immediately clear what, if anything, might have been inside them when the storm hit.

EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt has called cleaning up Superfund sites a priority, even as he has taken steps to roll back or delay rules aimed at preventing air and water pollution. President Donald Trump’s proposed 2018 budget seeks to cut money for the Superfund program by 30 percent, though congressional Republicans are likely to approve a less severe reduction.

Like Trump, Pruitt has expressed skepticism about the predictions of climate scientists that warmer air and seas will produce stronger, more drenching storms.

Under the Obama administration, the EPA conducted a nationwide assessment of the increased threat to Superfund sites posed by climate change, including rising sea levels and stronger hurricanes. Of the more than 1,600 sites reviewed as part of the 2012 study, 521 were determined to be in 1-in-100 year and 1-in-500 year flood zones. Nearly 50 sites in coastal areas could also be vulnerable to rising sea levels.

The threats to human health and wildlife from rising waters that inundate Superfund sites vary widely depending on the specific contaminants and the concentrations involved. The EPA report specifically noted the risk that floodwaters might carry away and spread toxic materials over a wider area.

The report listed two dozen Superfund sites determined to be especially vulnerable to flooding and sea-level rise. The only one in Texas, the Bailey Waste Disposal site south of Beaumont, is on a marshy island along the Neches River. The National Weather Service said the Neches was expected to crest on Saturday at more than 21 feet above flood stage — 8 feet higher than the prior record.



More at the link
I wasnt sure about starting a new post, but I think its kinda relevant here, regarding the EPA, Science, Facts and ground water. I just discovered Superfund sites, so pardon my ignorance on details.

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 7:33:07 PM   
Lucylastic


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This is another link Im following
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/349012-epa-says-13-superfund-sites-possibly-damaged-after-harvey


EPA finds 13 Superfund sites possibly damaged after Harvey
© Getty Images
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said Saturday that 13 Superfund sites have been flooded or could be facing damage as a result of Hurricane Harvey.

The agency said that two of the sites, which are areas that are polluted with hazardous material and require extensive cleanup, had been inspected and do not require immediate cleanup.

Eleven sites have proven to be inaccessible for response teams, however the agency said teams are in place to inspect the areas once flooding from the storm subsides.

In total, the EPA said that it had conducted initial assessments at 41 Superfund sites in impacted areas using "aerial images" and contact with with those responsible for regular cleanup activities.

The statement comes after The Associated Press reported that EPA officials had not yet inspected several Superfund sites in the Houston metro area that had been flooded following Harvey.

The EPA called the report "misleading" and "inaccurate."

"The facts are that EPA and TCEQ are working together along with other local, state and federal authorities and emergency responders around the clock to address the human health and environmental impacts of Hurricane Harvey and its effects, especially historic and devastating flooding throughout Southeast Texas," the agency said.

more at the link

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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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RE: The War on intelligence, facts, and science, marche... - 9/2/2017 11:44:49 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Pruitt isn't so much "anti-science" as he is just being 'pro-business' with a very narrow understanding of what that means, like most Republicans.


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
If you don't accept the scientific method, and reject any conclusions that threaten your beliefs or interests, then you are rejecting science.

But I suppose that it's likely that Pruitt, like other GOPers, DOES accept the conclusions... and they are lying about it because they are willing to lower the quality of life for future generations so that they can have power and votes in the present.

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