RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa'

RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (Full Version)

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WhoreMods -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 6:50:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX You are a brain damaged howler troll. Moronic beyond words I have never twisted anything to sympathy for Nazis, that's purely in your psychotic hallucinations. A product of your your unmanaged derangement syndrome Now to pivot away from the trolls' derail into fallacies - Re: The topic, and in communist left California, no less: From the LA Times - After Bay Area violence, California debates classifying 'antifa' as a street gang [img]http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/files/2016/11/KenobiIronyMeters.jpeg[/img]

Musicmystery -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 6:50:43 AM)
Nope, not fallacies -- a point you and others skipped over. One you're still just ignoring, attacking instead of providing counter-argument. If "derailing" means "stating factual distinctions," then sure, you'll have trouble following the flow of the discussion. And apparently, feel defensive and attacked by those factual distinctions.

MariaB -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 7:33:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: proudmisogynist quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer God, you're a cretin. Yes, Orwell would have supported Antifa. He wasn't a pacifist - he hated pacifism - but he also hated fascism. Orwell was up for a fight - if you haven't picked that up about him and his life, you know zero about what made him tick. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that he'd have swallowed the mealy-mouthed, squealy little arguments of people like yourself and Watson that opposing these goosestepping neonazi arseholes somehow makes one a Nazi oneself. It's pathetic. And you and Watson are pathetic too, RM. So you are basically saying that he would support people WHO ACT LIKE FASCISTS? Ya know, the ones who commit violent crimes against others just for having a different opinion. That's it, just an opinion, nothing more? Not to mention, the same people who light things on fire, smash and break things, which is usually other people's property, simply because they didn't get their own way? Are you sure Orwell would support such lowlife CRIMINAL scum? Anyone with any familiarity with Orwell, or his life long opposition to fascism will have no doubt about which side he would support in the US today. Anyone with any familarity with Orwell or his beliefs would find the notion that he might align himself with neo-Nazis, the KKK and far right racist thugs so preposterous it would be funny. Orwell volunteered to fight in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican side, against the fascists of Franco and his Nazi supporters. Unlike some posters here, he had no confusion about where fascism was located on the political spectrum - for Orwell and like minded people of his generation, fascism was an unambiguously, unequivocally right wing phenomenon to be opposed at every stop everywhere by whatever means necessary. Orwell would definitely regard Charlottesville's assorted crew of far Right bigots racists and neo-Nazis as "lowlife criminal scum" and probably would be quite sympathetic to the notion of killing the whole wretched lot of them. What was true for Orwell's generation is just as true today. Fascism has always been, is and always will be a purely Right wing phenomenon. I agree with most of this but not all of it. What Orwell spoke out against and fought against was totalitarianism but clearly, from his book 'Animal Farm' he warns us about the dangers of tyranny after revolution. At the end of WW2 he wrote "‘To defeat fascism, people have learned to live with less freedom but this leaves us vulnerable to other types of tyranny.

BamaD -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:32:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery See, here's the thing -- absolutely, oppose the physical violence. It's why we have police. It's why they get arrested. But you manage to spin it around to sympathy for the poor Nazi victims. Who frankly, aren't doing so badly. I know you suck at definitions, but here's another important distinction: - groups and individuals who oppose neo-Nazis (they have my blessing, within the constraints of the law, even if I think most of what they do is noise). - groups and individuals who favor anarchy. I'm a pro-government liberal, not a "government is the problem" neo-conservative iconoclast. Alas, current day antifa does appear to be leaning toward the anarchist view. It won't serve them well in the end, any more than shows of hate and force will serve the neo-Nazis in the end. But even there, fascism and anarchism are worlds apart. They are hardly birds of a feather. And hen in cases like Berkley they work with the mayor to see to it the police are not in the way when they attack people don't you see that they are as fascist as anyone. The thought that Orwell the Nazis never occurred to me. Has it ever occurred to you that he would see them and Antifa as two sides of the same coin?

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:41:27 AM)
quote: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa Which antifa?

Musicmystery -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:42:08 AM)
Again, you're confused about the difference between metaphor and definition. Since I've already explained this, more than once already, go read. Folks, honestly -- is every violent anti-something group "fascist" in your lexicon? You can fairly hate them both. But they are hardly the same. If one didn't exist, the other won't exist at all. But the converse is not true. If there are active neo-Nazis, it's not surprising there's active opposition. If the opposition went away -- we'd still have the neo-Nazis, doing their active hate campaign. If you're going to include "groups that use violence to achieve their objective," hell, include the US and its military campaigns. Here again, you could fairly oppose those campaigns, but that's hardly the same. Other than the rather simplisitic "they use violence." Earth First, a radical environmental group (that I oppose), uses violence. Fascists? FFS, no. Anarchists? You could make a case there, given their methods, but anarchy isn't their objective, so no. Same as neo-Nazis? Clearly not -- entirely different views, objectives, motivations. As for the conspiracy theories about complicity from local government and the police . . . [8\|] God Americans are gullible.

BoscoX -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:45:50 AM)
President Trump should send federal agents to any protest where the terrorist antifa may appear in order to protect peaceful protesters and their first amendment rights. Republicans did it to protect the civil rights marchers from the Democrats in the 1960's, they need do it again now.

Musicmystery -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:48:34 AM)
I don't suppose it will matter pointing out that the scale of violence and opposition in those cases are significantly different. But sure. Go ahead. It's only money, right? And Trump likes Nazis. "Good people." But if you want to see leftist violence, go back to the 70s. This is child's play today. And you want to see violent opposition to leftists, check out the 60s.

BoscoX -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 8:59:30 AM)
You antifa howlers are the Nazis. You are just far too stupid to ever get that

Musicmystery -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 9:05:25 AM)
You really, really need to learn the difference between metaphor and definition. [image]https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/p/1/005/0b0/106/340dc15.png[/image] Without that, it makes talking to you just silly.

Lucylastic -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 9:12:26 AM)
show your working out.

MariaB -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 9:37:48 AM)
I abhor Antifa and think they are nothing more than a gift for the far right. Instead of us all persecuting Nazi sympathizers, the right wing media are now trying to tease sympathy out of us all towards the fascists. I'm a left wing thinker but that doesn't make me a hardcore socialist or a communist, it just means I like to see equality and dislike the growth of corporate power for the one percent and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. For me, the Left has been built on togetherness/inclusiveness and the Right on separatism. Getting us common folk fighting against race, religion, class, and ideal's is so right wing. All Antifa are doing is giving the Right, good reason to slate the Left.

StWrinklemeat -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 9:50:14 AM)
Refresh my memory again dullard. Who was it carrying the flaming torches, dressed as ghosts why ghosts! chanting good old Nazi Tunes and spewing vile hatred at Charlottesville, and using a car as a kinetic weapon?

BamaD -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 9:50:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I abhor Antifa and think they are nothing more than a gift for the far right. Instead of us all persecuting Nazi sympathizers, the right wing media are now trying to tease sympathy out of us all towards the fascists. I'm a left wing thinker but that doesn't make me a hardcore socialist or a communist, it just means I like to see equality and dislike the growth of corporate power for the one percent and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. For me, the Left has been built on togetherness/inclusiveness and the Right on separatism. Getting us common folk fighting against race, religion, class, and ideal's is so right wing. All Antifa are doing is giving the Right, good reason to slate the Left. Nazis etc do not have the same beliefs as the vast majority of conservatives. They are scum whom we detest. Antifa is providing the same bad example for the left. I don't think that the Nazis and there ilk are worth the bullets it would take to blow their brains out. I have the same opinion of Antia and company.

WhoreMods -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:02:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX President Trump should send federal agents to any protest where the terrorist antifa may appear in order to protect peaceful protesters and their first amendment rights. What, like he did to defend the synagogue that the poor oppressed nazis would have attacked if the antifas hadn't been there to defend it? Either both groups get the same protection and support or neither does, but favouring one over the other is taking sides. Is that honestly too difficult an idea for you to grasp?

BoscoX -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:03:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I abhor Antifa and think they are nothing more than a gift for the far right. Instead of us all persecuting Nazi sympathizers, the right wing media are now trying to tease sympathy out of us all towards the fascists. I'm a left wing thinker but that doesn't make me a hardcore socialist or a communist, it just means I like to see equality and dislike the growth of corporate power for the one percent and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. For me, the Left has been built on togetherness/inclusiveness and the Right on separatism. Getting us common folk fighting against race, religion, class, and ideal's is so right wing. All Antifa are doing is giving the Right, good reason to slate the Left. Nazis etc do not have the same beliefs as the vast majority of conservatives. They are scum whom we detest. Antifa is providing the same bad example for the left. I don't think that the Nazis and there ilk are worth the bullets it would take to blow their brains out. I have the same opinion of Antia and company. Most leftists march in lockstep with antifa fascists

WhoreMods -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:07:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I abhor Antifa and think they are nothing more than a gift for the far right. Instead of us all persecuting Nazi sympathizers, the right wing media are now trying to tease sympathy out of us all towards the fascists. I'm a left wing thinker but that doesn't make me a hardcore socialist or a communist, it just means I like to see equality and dislike the growth of corporate power for the one percent and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. For me, the Left has been built on togetherness/inclusiveness and the Right on separatism. Getting us common folk fighting against race, religion, class, and ideal's is so right wing. All Antifa are doing is giving the Right, good reason to slate the Left. Nazis etc do not have the same beliefs as the vast majority of conservatives. They are scum whom we detest. Antifa is providing the same bad example for the left. I don't think that the Nazis and there ilk are worth the bullets it would take to blow their brains out. I have the same opinion of Antia and company. Most leftists march in lockstep with antifa fascists Like the right march in lockstep with the white surpremacists, boneheads, Klansmen and other neo-nazi elements? Have you never seen the American left? if they were capable of marching in lockstep Bernie Sanders would be the president now....

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:15:39 AM)
quote: antifa fascists You realize that is an oxymoron, right?

BoscoX -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:15:58 AM)
FR Antifa doesn't show up to 'protest' and they don't give a rats ass about 'fascism'. Their goal is to shut down speech they disagree with, which is anything other than communism. They accomplish that through violent confrontation, brawls, and riots. They see the Police as the enemy, as criminals normally do. That's why when no opposing group shows up at an announced rally, antifa attacks the police, as they just did in Berkeley. Antifa has stated goals: The end of the US Government, the end to capitalism, and a never ending war on police. And they have stated that they will use any means necessary... Meaning that they are self-described terrorists, and they should be treated as such.

Lucylastic -> RE: George Orwell Would Have Supported Antifa' (9/4/2017 10:16:28 AM)
he has a problem with dictionary meanings, a lot.

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