RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (Full Version)

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MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 5:32:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-russians-targeted-election-systems-in-1498059012-htmlstory.html

It looks like hackers tried accessing electronic databases relating to tabulating votes. What has not been said in the public reports of official investigations can be summed up in two questions.
1> Was the system hacked or just an attempt at hacking noted and logged?
2> If it was actually hacked; was it just a proof of concept since the investigation shows that nothing was changed?

Since, using VPN, even an old fart like me can make it look like an access attempt is coming from any country I choose; how are they sure it is Russian hackers? I think the guy was from Michigan that demonstrated how easy it was to hack electronic voting machines at Defcon a few years ago. For the most part; government accepted voting systems are SOTA 1989 at best. The tabulating programs on servers are better secured but the actual voting machines are easily hacked if you can sneak a screwdriver into the voting booth to open a cabinet and put a thumb drive into the computer.

I would actually expect other countries to do intrusion attempts on government computers. That is the digital equivalent to rattling a door to see of someone left it open. I'm sure our agencies do the same.

The questions no one has answered to my satisfaction on the 2016 election are:
1> Were there really several voting areas that logged more votes cast than registered voters?
2> Is voter fraud really that widespread or did someone manipulate the tally to favor one candidate over the other?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450413/registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-least-462-counties

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-more-voters-than-eligible-adults-claim-20170809-htmlstory.html

http://www.abc2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible

Picture ID with proof of residence when registering to vote anyone?


Hilarious how leftists want it both ways. They scream voter fraud when they lose elections, while at the same time refusing to do the things Republicans have been calling for all along to safeguard the process


Those leftists.... They probably paid the Department of Homeland Security to say that 21 states were targeted by Russian hacking. And they did it out of Hilary's slush funds!

Those crooked leftists. Ya just can't trust 'em.




MercTech -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 5:33:21 PM)

In my voting precinct, they bought new voting machines for the 2016 elections instead of the manual punch cards previously used. (a 1970s era system).

I noted the machine I used didn't even have the access panel locked. So, I looked. Looks like the voting tally for that machine is saved to a thumb drive. On asking the poll workers; they said they took the thumb drives downtown for the vote count by plugging it into the main machine in the Courthouse.

When I got home, I found the Courthouse computer was connected to the net and you could access a web page to see the County records as each precinct was tallied.

I wrote a letter recommending going back to a manual count of physical ballots enumerating all the ways I could see to hack the results with the current system. Never did get a reply.




BoscoX -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 5:34:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-russians-targeted-election-systems-in-1498059012-htmlstory.html

It looks like hackers tried accessing electronic databases relating to tabulating votes. What has not been said in the public reports of official investigations can be summed up in two questions.
1> Was the system hacked or just an attempt at hacking noted and logged?
2> If it was actually hacked; was it just a proof of concept since the investigation shows that nothing was changed?

Since, using VPN, even an old fart like me can make it look like an access attempt is coming from any country I choose; how are they sure it is Russian hackers? I think the guy was from Michigan that demonstrated how easy it was to hack electronic voting machines at Defcon a few years ago. For the most part; government accepted voting systems are SOTA 1989 at best. The tabulating programs on servers are better secured but the actual voting machines are easily hacked if you can sneak a screwdriver into the voting booth to open a cabinet and put a thumb drive into the computer.

I would actually expect other countries to do intrusion attempts on government computers. That is the digital equivalent to rattling a door to see of someone left it open. I'm sure our agencies do the same.

The questions no one has answered to my satisfaction on the 2016 election are:
1> Were there really several voting areas that logged more votes cast than registered voters?
2> Is voter fraud really that widespread or did someone manipulate the tally to favor one candidate over the other?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450413/registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-least-462-counties

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-more-voters-than-eligible-adults-claim-20170809-htmlstory.html

http://www.abc2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible

Picture ID with proof of residence when registering to vote anyone?


Hilarious how leftists want it both ways. They scream voter fraud when they lose elections, while at the same time refusing to do the things Republicans have been calling for all along to safeguard the process


Those leftists.... They probably paid the Department of Homeland Security to say that 21 states were targeted by Russian hacking. And they did it out of Hilary's slush funds!

Those crooked leftists. Ya just can't trust 'em.


Hypocrites

Massive, moronic, hypocrites

What are the odds they will finally want to pass some common sense ballot control laws




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 6:34:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

In my voting precinct, they bought new voting machines for the 2016 elections instead of the manual punch cards previously used. (a 1970s era system).

I noted the machine I used didn't even have the access panel locked. So, I looked. Looks like the voting tally for that machine is saved to a thumb drive. On asking the poll workers; they said they took the thumb drives downtown for the vote count by plugging it into the main machine in the Courthouse.

When I got home, I found the Courthouse computer was connected to the net and you could access a web page to see the County records as each precinct was tallied.

I wrote a letter recommending going back to a manual count of physical ballots enumerating all the ways I could see to hack the results with the current system. Never did get a reply.


If anyone cares... Here is my idea for Presidential Elections...

1. Shitcan the Electoral College. Have every American's vote count the same as every other American's vote
2. Build a Federal Election Commission with staff and TEETH
3. Have 1 set of rules nationwide for registering to vote (including proof of citizenship) and a picture ID available at no or low cost for low in come people.
4. Make the ID's readily available for all who qualify
5. Make every U.S. Post office, a place to register to vote
6. Force EVERYONE to re-certify in-person every year
7. Have secure electronic voting WITH a receipt and full reporting. Not only a receipt, but a FULL accounting in an excel spreadsheet of EVERY single vote, by block, by zip code, by city, by county, by state, by region, nationwide. HOWEVER it is requested. (Masking the ID of the voter and instead using an ID #). So anyone can see their own vote and the votes of everyone else (masked by User ID). ELIMINATING any chance of fraud and nullifying any hacking if it occurs
8. Open up early voting nationwide at the same time everywhere
9. Make every Post Office and Public library a place to vote as well as home voting via secure http (keep in mind, since all votes are publicaly recorded, hacking is null and void.)
10. Have a documented path to correcting any incorrect votes.


Republicans would absolutely hate this because:

1. It removes ANY of their excuses of voter fraud
2. They would NEVER win a national election without a gerrymandering scheme like the electoral college




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 6:55:36 PM)

quote:

If anyone cares... Here is my idea for voting...


1. Requires a constitutional amendment
2. Requires a constitutional amendment
3. Requires a constitutional amendment
4. Or just have sensible ID laws like we do up here
5. Good idea.
6. Dumb Idea.
7. That will not eliminate the chance of fraud nor would it nullify hacking.
8. Requires a constitutional amendment
9. Sure, why not (No it isn't)
10. Sure, why not, but who can correct a vote?

quote:

Republicans would absolutely hate this because:

1. No it doesn't.
2. The EC is not a gerrymandering scheme, it is a reflection of the reality of your country being a federation of states, not a unitary state.




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 7:19:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

If anyone cares... Here is my idea for voting...


1. Requires a constitutional amendment
2. Requires a constitutional amendment
3. Requires a constitutional amendment
4. Or just have sensible ID laws like we do up here
5. Good idea.
6. Dumb Idea.
7. That will not eliminate the chance of fraud nor would it nullify hacking.
8. Requires a constitutional amendment
9. Sure, why not (No it isn't)
10. Sure, why not, but who can correct a vote?

quote:

Republicans would absolutely hate this because:

1. No it doesn't.
2. The EC is not a gerrymandering scheme, it is a reflection of the reality of your country being a federation of states, not a unitary state.



1. Irrelevant to my point
2. Irrelevant to my point
3. Irrelevant to my point
4. Making IDs readily available to those who qualify is very sensible
5. Glad you think it is a good idea... But judging by your post... You have little clue what you are talking about
6. Sorry you think it is a "dumb" idea. See #5
7. You have little clue what you are talking about
8. Irrelevant to my point
9. You have little clue what you are talking about
10. Anyone who notices that his/her vote has been incorrectly recorded and can show proper identification.

1. You have little clue what you are talking about (x 100)
2. You have little clue what you are talking about (x 1000). That has got to be the most clueless of the list. You completely miss the point here.

This is clearly a topic upon which you lack a firm understanding.




Made2Obey -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 9:00:08 PM)

We haven't had a successful Constitutional amendment in this country since 1789. I wouldn't count real hard on any changes that require one happening within our lifetimes.




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 9:01:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-russians-targeted-election-systems-in-1498059012-htmlstory.html

It looks like hackers tried accessing electronic databases relating to tabulating votes. What has not been said in the public reports of official investigations can be summed up in two questions.
1> Was the system hacked or just an attempt at hacking noted and logged?
2> If it was actually hacked; was it just a proof of concept since the investigation shows that nothing was changed?

Since, using VPN, even an old fart like me can make it look like an access attempt is coming from any country I choose; how are they sure it is Russian hackers? I think the guy was from Michigan that demonstrated how easy it was to hack electronic voting machines at Defcon a few years ago. For the most part; government accepted voting systems are SOTA 1989 at best. The tabulating programs on servers are better secured but the actual voting machines are easily hacked if you can sneak a screwdriver into the voting booth to open a cabinet and put a thumb drive into the computer.

I would actually expect other countries to do intrusion attempts on government computers. That is the digital equivalent to rattling a door to see of someone left it open. I'm sure our agencies do the same.

The questions no one has answered to my satisfaction on the 2016 election are:
1> Were there really several voting areas that logged more votes cast than registered voters?
2> Is voter fraud really that widespread or did someone manipulate the tally to favor one candidate over the other?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450413/registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-least-462-counties

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-more-voters-than-eligible-adults-claim-20170809-htmlstory.html

http://www.abc2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible

Picture ID with proof of residence when registering to vote anyone?


Hilarious how leftists want it both ways. They scream voter fraud when they lose elections, while at the same time refusing to do the things Republicans have been calling for all along to safeguard the process


Those leftists.... They probably paid the Department of Homeland Security to say that 21 states were targeted by Russian hacking. And they did it out of Hilary's slush funds!

Those crooked leftists. Ya just can't trust 'em.


Hypocrites

Massive, moronic, hypocrites

What are the odds they will finally want to pass some common sense ballot control laws



OK... Mystery solved. Nothing to see here. The DHS report is the result of deep state holdouts on the payroll of the Clintons and other evil leftists :)




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 9:16:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

We haven't had a successful Constitutional amendment in this country since 1789. I wouldn't count real hard on any changes that require one happening within our lifetimes.




Yes, it is a very steep climb, with the number of states we currently have. Counting on one happening soon would be foolish.




MercTech -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 10:30:16 PM)

Thoughts on proposed changes to voting law...

1. The electoral college is designed to prevent a tyranny of high populous states. It does its job.
2. A federal election commission would only have jurisdiction over federal elections. Waste of hot air.
3. Registration to vote is a STATE issue and varies between states. It is no more in the purview of the federal government than what you are allowed to eat for breakfast.
4. Picture ID is already readily available to citizens. There is already a federal ID card if you care to use it. It's called a "Passport Card" and is the only identification certified by the federal government. Check an I-9 form to see what the federal government considers appropriate ID.
5. Making a post office a place to register to vote makes a federal entity responsible for a state issue. The State and not the national government determines the requirements to register to vote in that state. There are federal guidelines on what constitutes proper requirements on voter registration but it is State law that codifies it. Currently there are to places commonly used; County Clerk's Office (same place you get a marriage license, register a change in deed for a land sale, get a business license, etc.) and at the Department of Motor Vehicles where you can register to vote at the same time as you renew a driver's license.
6. How about a postcard being automatically mailed to a voter's address of record if that voter hasn't voted in three elections and dropping them from the voting rolls is they do not respond? That would be a good way to clear out the inactive voting rolls and make it harder to vote the graveyard. Check your local voting registration, you are required to contact voting registration offices if you move. (argument averted)
7. As outlined; it totally abrogates the concept of "secret ballot". Whether a person voted is a matter of public record. Who they voted for is not and protected under law. Voting statistics are by precinct, ward, or whatever your state government calls it and not by zip code which is a routing aid for the USPS and not a geographical designation.
8. Define "early voting"! Are you talking about paying to have the polls open earlier in the day so people can vote before work? Are you talking about allowing mail in ballots before the election day? Regional terms don't compute to every polity. If you are talking mail in ballots; that is called "absentee balloting" in most places and is already in place. The military is big on helping you get an absentee ballot for your home of record. If opening the polls early on election day; by the same time do you mean East Coast polls would have to open at 3am to be concurrent with 6am poll openings on the west coast? A bit silly to ignore time zone differences don't you think?
9. Again, the post office is a federal entity. Poll workers are temporary state employees and not authorized to be working in a federal office. <grin> No, it has to be a state and local function to pick and staff the polling locations. Schools and churchs seem to be good choices and I know the church down the street likes the rental fee paid by the state to use their fellowship hall for the polls on the occasional Tuesday.
10. The final step to casting a ballot is to review and certify you have cast the ballot correctly. Changing it after that certification, in addition to saying you are stupid, is saying you falsified a legal document. There comes a time to decide and not waffle.

Finally, the Electoral College has nothing to do with gerrymandering. Someone needs to look up "gerrymander".




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 10:48:24 PM)

Aw somebody is butthurt, isn't that cute.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/23/2017 10:51:11 PM)

quote:

1. The electoral college is designed to prevent a tyranny of high populous states. It does its job.

That is only one of it's functions. It was also designed to prevent the election of a populist demagogue, and in that respect it does not do it's job.
The problem is not with the EC, but with the winner take all apportionment of electors. Even Madison, who designed the EC wanted to get rid of it once the winner take all system started being used.




WhoreMods -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/24/2017 5:11:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-russians-targeted-election-systems-in-1498059012-htmlstory.html

It looks like hackers tried accessing electronic databases relating to tabulating votes. What has not been said in the public reports of official investigations can be summed up in two questions.
1> Was the system hacked or just an attempt at hacking noted and logged?
2> If it was actually hacked; was it just a proof of concept since the investigation shows that nothing was changed?

Since, using VPN, even an old fart like me can make it look like an access attempt is coming from any country I choose; how are they sure it is Russian hackers? I think the guy was from Michigan that demonstrated how easy it was to hack electronic voting machines at Defcon a few years ago. For the most part; government accepted voting systems are SOTA 1989 at best. The tabulating programs on servers are better secured but the actual voting machines are easily hacked if you can sneak a screwdriver into the voting booth to open a cabinet and put a thumb drive into the computer.

I would actually expect other countries to do intrusion attempts on government computers. That is the digital equivalent to rattling a door to see of someone left it open. I'm sure our agencies do the same.

The questions no one has answered to my satisfaction on the 2016 election are:
1> Were there really several voting areas that logged more votes cast than registered voters?
2> Is voter fraud really that widespread or did someone manipulate the tally to favor one candidate over the other?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450413/registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-least-462-counties

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-more-voters-than-eligible-adults-claim-20170809-htmlstory.html

http://www.abc2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible

Picture ID with proof of residence when registering to vote anyone?


Hilarious how leftists want it both ways. They scream voter fraud when they lose elections, while at the same time refusing to do the things Republicans have been calling for all along to safeguard the process

"Safeguarding the voting process" =/= "stopping [word removed] voting democrat by any underhand and occasionally illegal means possible".




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/24/2017 7:29:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Thoughts on proposed changes to voting law...

1. The electoral college is designed to prevent a tyranny of high populous states. It does its job.
2. A federal election commission would only have jurisdiction over federal elections. Waste of hot air.
3. Registration to vote is a STATE issue and varies between states. It is no more in the purview of the federal government than what you are allowed to eat for breakfast.
4. Picture ID is already readily available to citizens. There is already a federal ID card if you care to use it. It's called a "Passport Card" and is the only identification certified by the federal government. Check an I-9 form to see what the federal government considers appropriate ID.
5. Making a post office a place to register to vote makes a federal entity responsible for a state issue. The State and not the national government determines the requirements to register to vote in that state. There are federal guidelines on what constitutes proper requirements on voter registration but it is State law that codifies it. Currently there are to places commonly used; County Clerk's Office (same place you get a marriage license, register a change in deed for a land sale, get a business license, etc.) and at the Department of Motor Vehicles where you can register to vote at the same time as you renew a driver's license.
6. How about a postcard being automatically mailed to a voter's address of record if that voter hasn't voted in three elections and dropping them from the voting rolls is they do not respond? That would be a good way to clear out the inactive voting rolls and make it harder to vote the graveyard. Check your local voting registration, you are required to contact voting registration offices if you move. (argument averted)
7. As outlined; it totally abrogates the concept of "secret ballot". Whether a person voted is a matter of public record. Who they voted for is not and protected under law. Voting statistics are by precinct, ward, or whatever your state government calls it and not by zip code which is a routing aid for the USPS and not a geographical designation.
8. Define "early voting"! Are you talking about paying to have the polls open earlier in the day so people can vote before work? Are you talking about allowing mail in ballots before the election day? Regional terms don't compute to every polity. If you are talking mail in ballots; that is called "absentee balloting" in most places and is already in place. The military is big on helping you get an absentee ballot for your home of record. If opening the polls early on election day; by the same time do you mean East Coast polls would have to open at 3am to be concurrent with 6am poll openings on the west coast? A bit silly to ignore time zone differences don't you think?
9. Again, the post office is a federal entity. Poll workers are temporary state employees and not authorized to be working in a federal office. <grin> No, it has to be a state and local function to pick and staff the polling locations. Schools and churchs seem to be good choices and I know the church down the street likes the rental fee paid by the state to use their fellowship hall for the polls on the occasional Tuesday.
10. The final step to casting a ballot is to review and certify you have cast the ballot correctly. Changing it after that certification, in addition to saying you are stupid, is saying you falsified a legal document. There comes a time to decide and not waffle.

Finally, the Electoral College has nothing to do with gerrymandering. Someone needs to look up "gerrymander".



1. The EC has many intentions and functions. One of them was a compromise at the Constitutional Convention to give less populous (of free male people)
(and BTW more populous of slaves (see 3/5 rule)) a greater voting power then they would get if there were strictly a one-person, one-vote system. In that respect, it does its job. I would argue, that purpose, is vastly obsolete at this point. But that is a discussion for another thread.
2. If the EC were gone, a useful FEC would be critical.
3. Yes, it is the purview of the states. Hence the problems we have now
4. Picture ID is not as readily available as you think, and is cost prohibitive for some. Plus the requirements differ from state to state (See #3)
5. See #3
6. On the right track.... But things get lost in the mail. People are on vacation, etc. Better for someone to come in during a multi-month window at their own leisure.
7. It does nothing of the sort. All ID's of the voters are masked, and given a cryptic voter ID
8. Early voting (30+days before tally day), by WWW, or at a drop-box (like we have here on the island), or on a computer in a library or Post Office
9. See #3
10. You misunderstand. Not changing your vote. Rather, correcting how your vote is recorded. Once you vote, you get a receipt, of how your vote is recorded. You can also at ANY time, query the votes by any parameter imaginable (and knowable by the system), to continue to verify that your vote is recorded correctly. You can (and should) even do so after the results are tallied to ensure that your vote has continued to be recorded correctly. (Hence nullifying hacking :))

OK... I will explain how the EC has EVERYTHING to do with Gerrymandering.

Someone look up gerrymander? I just did.

Straight at the top of Google, a definition:

manipulate the boundaries of (an electoral constituency) so as to favor one party or class.

Among many other things... That is PRECISELY the effect of what the EC does. In this case, the electoral constituencies are the states. Granted, it doesn't literally manipulate the boundaries of the states. (Although that was already built-in when the EC was implemented.) However, the effect is identical. It dilutes the vote of the minority (and since most states are winner-take-all, it completely disenfranchises them) so as to favor one party.. Ask the Republicans in the Central and Eastern part of my state. Ask the Democrats in Atlanta, GA, or Austin, TX... Just a few of thousands of examples. Ask Republicans in California for that matter!

The EC is one enormous gerrymander (regardless of its stated intentions).

Of course it goes farther than that in its corruption. Fodder for another thread.







MercTech -> RE: I suspected this but never saw any evidence... Until NOW! (9/24/2017 1:21:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Aw somebody is butthurt, isn't that cute.



Not me. Just hurting physically (old injury), can't get to sleep, and taking my frustration out on the internet. Looking shit up and getting into an argument distracts me.




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