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RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 9:34:27 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Jeff, there are very few questions that are stupid. There are many stupid answers. There are a few on here who can give consistently dumb answers, beliefs or theories and trying to talk sense to them is like fighting fog. They shall remain nameless but if the one I'm thinking of was to leave Singapore, the intelligence level of that benighted country, would rise by many, many points . The trouble is, some other country would suffer. I am in the process of reading a book titled 'The Triumph of the Airheads' by Shelley Gare . I would recommend it to you except that it would possibly get you angry to the point of reaching critical mass. You will see that person many times through the book.

From what I've read, the author(s) were prescient about the continuing Triumph of the Airheads...this time around too. Oh and the subtitle is...'And the Retreat from Commonsense.'



_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 11:10:34 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Electric engines can be more than 90% efficient and even up to 98% efficient while combustion engines are 30 to 45% efficient.

The motor itself is fantastically efficient, but that’s in terms of the electricity being delivered to it from the batteries. That conversion is not direct the batteries provide DC power but the motor uses AC, so you need to use an “inverter” to change it from one to the other. Modern inverters are about 95% efficient.


Wherever you are finding a motor or generator with a 0.90 power factor; let me know. Checking in catalogs and manufacturer specification sheets, the best I see is a 0.28 power factor. A motor or generator component with almost no hysteresis losses would revolutionize our whole industrial base. Someone needs to tell the power companies that there is a better replacement for all their generators and the motors used in the power plants.

Nope, going from electrical to mechanical or back the other way tosses away 72% of the measured power.
BTW, motor/generator sets are more efficient and a lot cheaper when you scale up to tens of thousands of watts instead of a small installation. AC/DC conversion at 480 volts and 1600 amps is as large as a pickup truck. (Submarine Motor Generator Set - MG set) And if there were a system more than the 0.28 power factor, it would be used on Submarines.

And here I thought DC motors worked better for transportation motors as the reversal is just a flip of a switch instead of a phase rotation change. Are you sure an inverter is used in an electric car? No real need for alternating current in a vehicle.

I just can't see where you can claim 90% efficient looking at the whole system. I can see only a 10% loss in power into a battery and back out again with the improvements in the last decade. But, the conversion from electrical wattage to brake horsepower on electrics is still less than for internal combustion even before you account for the losses in the generation side as well.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 11:31:15 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Fuel cells again,

Why hydrolyze LPG to make hydrogen to burn in a hydrogen fuel cell when you can use a different catalyst and run a LPG fuel cell? That is an unnecessary step.

Ok, Hydrogen fuel cells are mature tech first introduced in the 1960s. LPG and LNG fuel cells were first commercially produced in the early 1970s. But, the LNG/LPG fuel cell companies were bought up by a utility company and put on the back burner until they trotted out to get a multimillion dollar DoE prize for "New Technology" in 2003. A prize, once won, saw the tech again put on the back burner and ignored.

A viable LNG/LPG fuel cell could easily compete with the current Westinghouse model electric utility system. Not claiming conspiracy but noting the greed factor. It is only in the best interests of the powers that be for LNG/LPG fuel cells to remain unavailable on the shelf.

Hydrogen fuel cell - Nickel electrodes. KOH catalyst. Oxy and Hydrogen in. Electricity and water out.
LPG/LNG fuel cell - Platinum doped bronze electrodes. Phosphoric Acid catalyst. Electricity, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrous Oxide, Water out
LPG cracking Fuel Cell - Proprietary electrodes and catalyst. High heat cracking unit. Electricity, Nitric Oxide, Unburned volatile organics, water, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide out.

A straight LNG/LPG fuel cell needs a better and less corrosive catalyst to be really viable.

In a near term SciFi dream world; we could have a unit that attaches to the top of the Propane tank you use on the barbecue and has a couple of 110vac outlets and some 2 amp 12VDC outlets on it and maybe a couple of 5VDC/3.4VDC USB ports.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 11:47:15 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

Ok got the right one this time








where are you coming up with your losses?


typical size for a car would be between 30 -75 horse






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 11:57:57 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Jeff, there are very few questions that are stupid. There are many stupid answers. There are a few on here who can give consistently dumb answers, beliefs or theories and trying to talk sense to them is like fighting fog. They shall remain nameless but if the one I'm thinking of was to leave Singapore, the intelligence level of that benighted country, would rise by many, many points . The trouble is, some other country would suffer. I am in the process of reading a book titled 'The Triumph of the Airheads' by Shelley Gare . I would recommend it to you except that it would possibly get you angry to the point of reaching critical mass. You will see that person many times through the book.

From what I've read, the author(s) were prescient about the continuing Triumph of the Airheads...this time around too. Oh and the subtitle is...'And the Retreat from Commonsense.'






why wouldnt we take the direct approach? The tmt is proven tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9UBJ-ZcsQ

I spent hours wasting my time trying to help experimenters get exceptional results and they are simply too fucking stupid to comprehend, now that physics profs got their hands in the mix finally things I suggested 20 years ago are being tested and with phenomenal results.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/28/2017 3:47:31 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Your post in its entirety...Hydrogen can go boom, for one thing. Plus, one of the drawbacks to it is storage of enough hydrogen to get the job done (remember hydrogen can make big booms), and/or making a safe on-demand hydrolysis apparatus.
I commented on the boom factor. Otherwise, I don't know why we don't don't have fully hydrogen powered vehicles.


Perhaps we don't have safe storage (you know, Boom!) and/or safe ways to make on-demand hydrolysis?

You're usually quicker on the uptake, MR.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/29/2017 1:08:21 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Electric engines can be more than 90% efficient and even up to 98% efficient while combustion engines are 30 to 45% efficient.

The motor itself is fantastically efficient, but that’s in terms of the electricity being delivered to it from the batteries. That conversion is not direct the batteries provide DC power but the motor uses AC, so you need to use an “inverter” to change it from one to the other. Modern inverters are about 95% efficient.


Wherever you are finding a motor or generator with a 0.90 power factor; let me know. Checking in catalogs and manufacturer specification sheets, the best I see is a 0.28 power factor. A motor or generator component with almost no hysteresis losses would revolutionize our whole industrial base. Someone needs to tell the power companies that there is a better replacement for all their generators and the motors used in the power plants.

Nope, going from electrical to mechanical or back the other way tosses away 72% of the measured power.
BTW, motor/generator sets are more efficient and a lot cheaper when you scale up to tens of thousands of watts instead of a small installation. AC/DC conversion at 480 volts and 1600 amps is as large as a pickup truck. (Submarine Motor Generator Set - MG set) And if there were a system more than the 0.28 power factor, it would be used on Submarines.

And here I thought DC motors worked better for transportation motors as the reversal is just a flip of a switch instead of a phase rotation change. Are you sure an inverter is used in an electric car? No real need for alternating current in a vehicle.

I just can't see where you can claim 90% efficient looking at the whole system. I can see only a 10% loss in power into a battery and back out again with the improvements in the last decade. But, the conversion from electrical wattage to brake horsepower on electrics is still less than for internal combustion even before you account for the losses in the generation side as well.

IE3 Premium Efficiency (IEEE) HERE

kW 2 pole 4 pole 6 pole
50 HZ / 60 HZ 50 HZ / 60 HZ 50 HZ / 60 HZ

0.75 80.7 / 77.0 82.5 / 85.5 78.9 / 82.5
1.1 82.7 / 84.0 84.1 / 86.5 81.0 / 87.5
1.5 84.2 / 85.5 85.3 / 86.5 82.5 / 88.5
2.2 85.9 / 86.5 86.7 / 89.5 84.3 / 89.5
3 87.1 / - 87.7 / - 85.6 / -
3.7 - / 88.5 - / 89.5 - / 89.5
4 88.1 / - 88.6 / - 86.8 / -
5.5 89.2 / 89.5 89.6 / 91.7 88.0 / 91.0
7.5 90.1 / 90.2 90.4 / 91.7 89.1 / 91.0
11 91.2 / 90.0 91.4 / 92.4 90.3 / 91.7
15 91.9 / 91.0 92.1 / 93.0 91.2 / 91.7
18.5 92.4 / 91.7 92.6 / 93.6 91.7 / 93.0
22 92.7 / 91.7 93.0 / 93.6 92.2 / 93.0
30 93.3 / 92.4 93.6 / 94.1 92.9 / 94.1
37 93.7 / 93.0 93.9 / 94.5 93.3 / 94.1
45 94.0 / 93.6 94.2 / 95.0 93.7 / 94.5
55 94.3 / 93.6 94.6 / 94.4 94.1 / 94.5
75 94.7 / 94.1 95.0 / 95.4 94.6 / 95.0
90 95.0 / 95.0 95.2 / 95.4 94.9 / 95.0
110 95.2 / 95.0 95.4 / 95.8 95.1 / 95.8
132 95.4 / - 95.6 / - 95.4 / -
150 - / 95.4 - / 96.2 - / 95.8
160 95.6 / - 95.8 / - 95.6 / -
185 - / 95.8 - / 96.2 - / 95.8
200 95.8 / - 96.0 / - 95.8 / -
220 95.8 / 95.8 96.0 / 96.2 95.8 / 95.8
250 95.8 / 95.8 96.0 / 96.2 95.8 / 95.8
300 95.8 / 95.8 96.0 / 96.2 95.8 / 95.8
330 95.8 / 95.8 96.0 / 96.2 95.8 / 95.8
375 95.8 / 95.8 96.0 / 96.2 95.8 / 95.8


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 9/29/2017 1:16:09 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Your post in its entirety...Hydrogen can go boom, for one thing. Plus, one of the drawbacks to it is storage of enough hydrogen to get the job done (remember hydrogen can make big booms), and/or making a safe on-demand hydrolysis apparatus.
I commented on the boom factor. Otherwise, I don't know why we don't don't have fully hydrogen powered vehicles.


Perhaps we don't have safe storage (you know, Boom!) and/or safe ways to make on-demand hydrolysis?

You're usually quicker on the uptake, MR.


Actually I think my uptake is fine as there are many 1000's of hydrogen/electric cars on the road as we speak. So far it's the costs. In time that will come down and we'll see more.


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 10/1/2017 4:29:17 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



Ok got the right one this time








where are you coming up with your losses?


typical size for a car would be between 30 -75 horse






http://www.usmotors.com/TechDocs/ProFacts/PowerFactor-EnergyConservation

The highest power factor motor you can get is a 0.28 power factor. 28% of the input power comes out as useful power.
Electric cars are using power that is 28% efficient in generation where the amount of energy input to the turbine is compared to the amount of electrical energy generated. Then you have the line losses. Then you have the conversion to DC for charging batteries. Then you have losses coming out of the battery since you never get as much out of a battery as you put in to charge it. Then you have to account for the power factor of the electric motor that then converts electrical energy to mechanical energy to move the car.

The curves you cited ONLY discuss the impedance losses and friction losses in an induction motor but never address the power conversion factor nor the hysteresis losses as heat in the windings. Not a whit of anything addressing the lack of efficiency in a total system required to enable a battery electric vehicle.

Bottom line, the more conversions between types of energy, the more entropy and loss of efficiency. No system that contains a single conversion at 28 percent efficiency can be 90 percent efficient in the total picture.

If you look at a total system, there is a case for diesel powered transportation being the most efficient. And, the real world numbers from the trucking, maritime, and rail industries bear this out.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Look for gas and oil...to go down. - 10/2/2017 1:25:25 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Your post in its entirety...Hydrogen can go boom, for one thing. Plus, one of the drawbacks to it is storage of enough hydrogen to get the job done (remember hydrogen can make big booms), and/or making a safe on-demand hydrolysis apparatus.
I commented on the boom factor. Otherwise, I don't know why we don't don't have fully hydrogen powered vehicles.


Perhaps we don't have safe storage (you know, Boom!) and/or safe ways to make on-demand hydrolysis?

You're usually quicker on the uptake, MR.





Actually, there is a good way to store hydrogen but it is as expensive as hell.
Platinum forms a wonderful hydride adsorbing many times its own weight in hydrogen. Heat it up, starting at 150F, it releases the hydrogen again. While in hydride form, it is very very hard to get enough fuel air mix to go boom.

When this was prototyped in the early 1970s, a decent car was around $5000 and a luxury Mercedes was almost $10K. The hydride fuel container was $50K by itself.

Unless the cartel controlling the platinum price ever goes away; we will never see a safe storage hydrogen powered vehicle. <grin>

Diamonds and platinum are artificially inflated. No conspiracy. Just a known greedy cartel practice.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 50
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