Will Catalonia split from Spain?

Will Catalonia split from Spain? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 7:15:21 AM)
The Catalan Govt is widely expected to declare independence in the next few days. This follows a recent controversial referendum in which over 90% of Catalans voted for independence from Spain. Not all Cantalans favour independence, with a hundred thousand marching against independence in Barcelona, the Catalan capital, on Sunday. The Spanish Govt doesn't like this idea very much and has reacted strongly, sending in the hated National Police in a failed attempt to thwart the referendum. The police further inflamed the situation by their violent attempts to suppress pro-independence demonstrators. The central govt has refused to negotiate with Catalan leaders. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/catalonia-independence-declaration-would-not-be-recognised-says-france Are the Catalans entitled to a country of their own? How should the Spanish govt deal with the crisis? Has their heavy handed response been counter productive? Should other EU countries recognise an independent Catalonia or freeze it out?

BoscoX -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 7:42:01 AM)
Why do you ask, when leftists such as yourself pretend to believe that borders are racist and immoral blah blah blah stupidity

kdsub -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 8:05:02 AM)
I think first they need a non-binding government sanctioned referendum with outside monitoring to find out the true feelings of the people in the area. Depending on the results the government needs a new approach to determine the reasons for this desire for self rule and if there can be a negotiated solution. This of course is nothing new and the old ways of addressing this unrest has not worked. Butch

Wayward5oul -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 8:39:39 AM)
FR And if Catalonia gets independence, the Basque province will immediately move for the same, and Navarre could follow the Basque country with a little encouragement. And history has shown that there are those among the Basque that will resort to violence in pursuit of their independence. If Catalonia were recognized as independent, and the Basque country was not, I would expect more ETA activity.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 9:00:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX Why do you ask, when leftists such as yourself pretend to believe that borders are racist and immoral blah blah blah stupidity Look you thick-witted little shit, as far as I know I am the only person who has said that borders are immoral, and I am most definitely NOT a leftist such as tweakabelle. She is a right wing nut from where I stand. Your ignorance is boundless.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 9:01:43 AM)
A second Spanish civil war perhaps?

Wayward5oul -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/9/2017 1:31:42 PM)
Es posible.

tweakabelle -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 12:47:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul FR And if Catalonia gets independence, the Basque province will immediately move for the same, and Navarre could follow the Basque country with a little encouragement. And history has shown that there are those among the Basque that will resort to violence in pursuit of their independence. If Catalonia were recognized as independent, and the Basque country was not, I would expect more ETA activity. I understand that ETA is inactive at the moment. I could be wrong but I think I heard somewhere that they announced they were disarming and disbanding too. Anyway ETA are not a force to be reckoned with as things stand. There appears to be little or no support among Basques for a resumption of violent resistance to Madrid. While Catalonian independence would fan the forces of separatism elsewhere in Spain, I cannot see Catalonia obtaining 100% independent status - the opposition from Madrid appears uncompromising and I don't think Catalans want to resort to an armed struggle to obtain their goals. So from where I sit, some form of confederation seems the most likely outcome. How the Spanish negotiate the difficult terrain between where we are now, and confederation remains up in the air. Hopefully they can accomplish that outcome without any side resorting to violence.

WhoreMods -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 4:41:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul FR And if Catalonia gets independence, the Basque province will immediately move for the same, and Navarre could follow the Basque country with a little encouragement. And history has shown that there are those among the Basque that will resort to violence in pursuit of their independence. If Catalonia were recognized as independent, and the Basque country was not, I would expect more ETA activity. I understand that ETA is inactive at the moment. I could be wrong but I think I heard somewhere that they announced they were disarming and disbanding too. Anyway ETA are not a force to be reckoned with as things stand. There appears to be little or no support among Basques for a resumption of violent resistance to Madrid. While Catalonian independence would fan the forces of separatism elsewhere in Spain, I cannot see Catalonia obtaining 100% independent status - the opposition from Madrid appears uncompromising and I don't think Catalans want to resort to an armed struggle to obtain their goals. So from where I sit, some form of confederation seems the most likely outcome. How the Spanish negotiate the difficult terrain between where we are now, and confederation remains up in the air. Hopefully they can accomplish that outcome without any side resorting to violence. The Spanish will never have it, as there's no way in Hell they'd tolerate losing the tourist industries and associations with famous artists that comes with Catalonia. The extent to which a lot of what's commonly perceived as Spanish culture is properly speaking Catalonian astonished me when I looked into this.

Drakvampire -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 8:43:48 AM)
I think so. The region had a large degree of autonomy up until 2010 when the then Spanish government revoked much of the Catalonia parliament’s powers. The Spanish government, and their trucked in police force, resorted to violence that would not look out of place in a 3rd world country. Dialogue was not an option. The region overwhelmingly supports independence. Yes. The ETA is inactive and that happened recently. It is highly doubtful they gave up all their arms dumps. Violence is not the answer. Democracy is. Was it undemocratic not to allow the rest of Spain to vote in the referendum? Violence is the answer: For the Democratically elected Spanish government to violently crush a referendum and declare it illegal and unconstitutional.

WhoreMods -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 9:59:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Drakvampire Was it undemocratic not to allow the rest of Spain to vote in the referendum? It would have been undemocratic to allow the rest of the UK a vote in the referendum on Scottish independence, if I recall correctly, so holding the vote for this purely in Catalonia seems fair enough. [;)]

Drakvampire -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 10:54:14 AM)
Catalonia gave up violence only to be met with democratic violence. Do you believe that was just? I liked when the shipped in Madrid polis from the inquisition squad dragged a women by the hair as several his mates kicked her head in. What was your favourite moment? Basque region is next. BREXIT went first, ably assisted by the Russians and the Express and Daily Mail and I must say the value of the EURO has soared as has the dollar as the 12 sided pound plunged. And today wee jim krankie declared the first nationalized energy company or by its other moniker a Public Energy Firm.

WhoreMods -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 10:59:33 AM)
I think the main difference between the independence referendums in Scotland and the one in Catalonia is one that was staged by a national (as in the UK) government that agreed to abide by the results, whereas the one in Catalonia was staged by an organisation that the Spanish government does not recognise, so they were going to ignore the vote however it went.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 12:30:09 PM)
quote: the one in Catalonia was staged by an organisation that the Spanish government does not recognise So in other words a grass roots democratic effort. Good on 'em.

ManOeuvre -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/10/2017 9:07:50 PM)
Hmmm. The smarter, more productive area of the country wants to go full Singapore. I'd cheer but for that their ambition is to get out from under Madrid and jump under Brussels. Seems like a lateral move to me.

tweakabelle -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/27/2017 7:25:08 AM)
After weeks of turmoil and uncertainty, Catalonia's Parliament voted to declare independence tonight. The independence motion was passed by 70 votes to 10. In response, the Spanish Senate voted to implement Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, which allows the central Govt in Madrid to impose direct rule on Catalonia. The pro-independence vote was taken after weeks of inaction by the Catalonian Govt which seemed reluctant to take the final irreversible step to declare independence from Spain. Catalans voted overwhelmingly in favour of independence in a recent referendum, a referendum denounced as illegal by the central Govt. The central Govt's response to Catalonian demands for separation has been negative and uncompromising. The central Govt enjoys the support of most Spaniards, who have shown little sympathy for Catalan demands. It seems likely that the central Govt will impose its authority over the region and in particular, the region's police and security services in an effort to thwart the independence declaration. Such moves are likely to provoke angry reactions from Cataloni's pro-independence majority. All this amounts to the biggest constitutional challenge in Spain since a failed coup some years ago. It is uncharted territory for all concerned. Can Catalonia succeed in forming an independent sovereign State? Will the central Govt succeed in thwarting the moves? Can rule from Madrid succeed in quelling the restive province? Will the situation be resolved without recourse to violence? How will the rest of the EU react?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/27/2017 8:18:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle After weeks of turmoil and uncertainty, Catalonia's Parliament voted to declare independence tonight. The independence motion was passed by 70 votes to 10. In response, the Spanish Senate voted to implement Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, which allows the central Govt in Madrid to impose direct rule on Catalonia. The pro-independence vote was taken after weeks of inaction by the Catalonian Govt which seemed reluctant to take the final irreversible step to declare independence from Spain. Catalans voted overwhelmingly in favour of independence in a recent referendum, a referendum denounced as illegal by the central Govt. The central Govt's response to Catalonian demands for separation has been negative and uncompromising. The central Govt enjoys the support of most Spaniards, who have shown little sympathy for Catalan demands. It seems likely that the central Govt will impose its authority over the region and in particular, the region's police and security services in an effort to thwart the independence declaration. Such moves are likely to provoke angry reactions from Cataloni's pro-independence majority. All this amounts to the biggest constitutional challenge in Spain since a failed coup some years ago. It is uncharted territory for all concerned. Can Catalonia succeed in forming an independent sovereign State? Will the central Govt succeed in thwarting the moves? Can rule from Madrid succeed in quelling the restive province? Will the situation be resolved without recourse to violence? How will the rest of the EU react? Is there any method within the Spanish Constitution for an autonomous region to secede? Catalonia could be separate from Spain, relatively easily, as it is a border region (as opposed to, say, La Rioja, Madrid or Castilla la Mancha which would still be completely surrounded by Spain if it seceded), but within the Constitutional framework, is there a method for secession? If not, then the referendum and pronouncement are unConstitutional, and for Catalonia to be freed from the rest of Spain, there will be needed escalated actions.

BoscoX -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/27/2017 9:19:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: the one in Catalonia was staged by an organisation that the Spanish government does not recognise So in other words a grass roots democratic effort. Good on 'em. “Irony” - The same brainiac who habitually howls that “borders are immoral” posting in support of a new border

PeonForHer -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/27/2017 9:41:41 AM)
quote: It seems likely that the central Govt will impose its authority over the region and in particular, the region's police and security services in an effort to thwart the independence declaration. Such moves are likely to provoke angry reactions from Cataloni's pro-independence majority. After the vote in Madrid for direct rule, it looks like things will happen very quickly now, too.

Nnanji -> RE: Will Catalonia split from Spain? (10/27/2017 10:51:43 AM)
~FR~ Well, it's begun. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/catalonia-declares-independence-from-spain-direct-madrid-rule-looms-idUSKBN1CW0VF

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