Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 3:09:28 PM)

Yes, it's a copy & paste.

George Papadopoulos, who served as a top foreign policy adviser to President Donald Trump's campaign, pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI, according to documents unsealed by the U.S. Justice Department on Monday.

According to the FBI, Papadopoulos had contact with a professor "understood to have substantial connections to Russian government officials," and with a "female Russian national," whom he sought to use as a conduit between the Trump campaign and the Russian government.

While the indictment of Paul Manafort, the former chairman of President Donald Trump's campaign (and of Rick Gates, a longtime Manafort associate) dominated headlines on Monday morning, there are several reasons to believe the indictment of Papadopoulos—and his guilty plea—may actually be more important.

First, as Reason's Scott Shackford noted earlier this morning, the Manafort indictment is far from the smoking gun that many in the anti-Trump crowd hoped it to be.

Second, Papadopoulos' indictment has a much more significant nexus with the actual Trump campaign. According to the FBI, Papadopoulos began communicating with the unnamed "professor" in March 2016, shortly before taking the role of foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign.

The professor and Papadopoulos met on several occasions in Italy and London, according to the court documents, and during one of those meetings in April 2016, the professor told Papadopoulos that Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton, including thousands of Clinton's emails. Papadopoulos shared that information with higher-ups in the Trump campaign.

Third, Papadopoulos unlike Manafort and Gates has already pleaded guilty and has been answering questions for the FBI for months. After his initial interview with the FBI in January, Papadopoulos was called back for a second interview in February.

Around the same time, the FBI says, he deleted his Facebook account (which he had used to contact the professor and a woman with ties to the Russian government) and changed his cell phone number. Papadopoulos was arrested on July 27.

We don't know what additional information Papadopoulos has provided to the FBI since July, and we don't know whether Papadopoulos' guilty plea is an indication that the feds convinced him to "flip."

Like the Manafort indictment, it's possible that announcing Papadopoulos' charges and plea are merely meant to scare other potential targets of the investigation into cooperating with the FBI as the probe continues.

On the other hand, as Harvard law professor Alex Whiting has suggested, these may be nothing more than easy charges that fell into special prosecutor Robert Mueller's lap.

Without knowing the prosecutorial strategy being employed by Mueller, it's hard to draw any conclusions from what we've seen this morning. Still, the Papadopoulos plea seems the more important development.

HERE




Hillwilliam -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 3:42:32 PM)

It will be interesting.

Manafort 'allegedly' committed his treason before Trump hired him.

Papadopoulos did so while a member of the team. No 'alleged' as he has pled guilty




samst -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 3:57:23 PM)

I was lead to believe the lying cunt boasted live on the telly he was going to spill the dirt on manky Hillary as the Russian money poured in.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 4:40:25 PM)

FR,

Ok. Papadopolous lied to the FBI. He should face whatever sentence is appropriate for lying to the FBI. Was it treason? I'm not so sure it was.

What did he lie about?

1. He lied about when he got in contact with "the professor" and learned he had dirt on Hillary. Papadopolous said those things happened before he joined the Trump campaign. Papadopolous learned he was going to be an advisor in early March (around the 6th) and met the professor in mid-March (the 14th). His advisorship wasn't announced until March 21st. There may be some ticky tack technicalities at play as he might not have "officially" join the campaign until the 21st; unofficially, it was March 6th-ish. The dirt on Hillary wasn't told to Papadopolous until near the end of April. Clearly a lie.

Treasonous? I don't think so.

2. He lied about meeting a female Russian national, saying that meeting her took place prior to his joining the campaign. He also lied about the nature of the conversations (claiming it to be nothing more than "small talk"). He met her on March 24th, which is after his advisorship to the campaign was announced. The nature of the conversations was an attempt to use her connections to get a meeting between "the campaign" and "Russian government officials." Clearly, he lied about when he met with this female national (who purported to be a relative of Putin) and about the topics of their conversations.

Treasonous? I don't know about that.

According to the FBI's Offense Statement (.pdf):
    quote:

    Through his false statements and omissions, defendant PAPADOPOULOS impeded the FBI's ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the Campaign and the Russian government's efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.


He interfered and impeded an investigation. The offense statement neither proved nor refuted that the people Papadopoulos was in contact with actually had connections to Russian government officials. It also neither proved nor refuted that Papadopoulos ever had any direct or email contact with Russian government officials.

He is guilty of lying to the FBI, thereby impeding an ongoing investigation. In this particular instance (because there could be other instances where lying to the FBI and impeding an ongoing investigation could be treasonous), I don't see how this is treason.




MasterJaguar01 -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 5:50:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

FR,

Ok. Papadopolous lied to the FBI. He should face whatever sentence is appropriate for lying to the FBI. Was it treason? I'm not so sure it was.

What did he lie about?

1. He lied about when he got in contact with "the professor" and learned he had dirt on Hillary. Papadopolous said those things happened before he joined the Trump campaign. Papadopolous learned he was going to be an advisor in early March (around the 6th) and met the professor in mid-March (the 14th). His advisorship wasn't announced until March 21st. There may be some ticky tack technicalities at play as he might not have "officially" join the campaign until the 21st; unofficially, it was March 6th-ish. The dirt on Hillary wasn't told to Papadopolous until near the end of April. Clearly a lie.

Treasonous? I don't think so.

2. He lied about meeting a female Russian national, saying that meeting her took place prior to his joining the campaign. He also lied about the nature of the conversations (claiming it to be nothing more than "small talk"). He met her on March 24th, which is after his advisorship to the campaign was announced. The nature of the conversations was an attempt to use her connections to get a meeting between "the campaign" and "Russian government officials." Clearly, he lied about when he met with this female national (who purported to be a relative of Putin) and about the topics of their conversations.

Treasonous? I don't know about that.

According to the FBI's Offense Statement (.pdf):
    quote:

    Through his false statements and omissions, defendant PAPADOPOULOS impeded the FBI's ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the Campaign and the Russian government's efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.


He interfered and impeded an investigation. The offense statement neither proved nor refuted that the people Papadopoulos was in contact with actually had connections to Russian government officials. It also neither proved nor refuted that Papadopoulos ever had any direct or email contact with Russian government officials.

He is guilty of lying to the FBI, thereby impeding an ongoing investigation. In this particular instance (because there could be other instances where lying to the FBI and impeding an ongoing investigation could be treasonous), I don't see how this is treason.



Actually, I think Manafort's support of the Party of Regions when they attacked a bus full of US troops is closer to Treason.




Wayward5oul -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 6:05:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

It will be interesting.

Manafort 'allegedly' committed his treason before Trump hired him.

Papadopoulos did so while a member of the team. No 'alleged' as he has pled guilty


Some of the charges against manafort are for acts during 2017.




JVoV -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/30/2017 11:17:04 PM)

from Vox

So what separates “conspiracy against the United States” from conspiracy to commit X, Y, or Z criminal offense? Here’s what the statutory definition says:

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
There are two parts to the definition. One is “defrauding the United States,” which, Griffin explains, doesn’t require an underlying crime. It just requires showing the defendants conspired to “impair or obstruct the lawful function of any part of the government.”


In the indictment, the special counsel specifies that Manafort and Gates defrauded the government by “impeding, impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful governmental functions of a government agency, namely the Department of Justice and the Department of the Treasury.”

This is a reference to their alleged money laundering (which obstructs the functioning of the IRS, a subsidiary of the Treasury), their failure to disclose foreign financial transactions (also a purview of the Treasury), and their failure to adequately disclose their lobbying under the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which is enforced by the National Security Division of the Department of Justice.

The second part of the “conspiracy against the United States” definition concerns “commit[ing] any offense against the United States.” Unlike the defrauding clause, charges relating to this part of the statute require an underlying criminal offense against the United States.

The indictment charges that Manafort and Gates ran afoul of this part of the law as well — because making false statements about lobbying for foreign governments, not filing reports about foreign bank accounts, and lying to investigators are all crimes against the United States government.




tweakabelle -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 2:38:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


According to the FBI's Offense Statement (.pdf):
    quote:

    Through his false statements and omissions, defendant PAPADOPOULOS impeded the FBI's ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the Campaign and the Russian government's efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.


He interfered and impeded an investigation. The offense statement neither proved nor refuted that the people Papadopoulos was in contact with actually had connections to Russian government officials. It also neither proved nor refuted that Papadopoulos ever had any direct or email contact with Russian government officials.

He is guilty of lying to the FBI, thereby impeding an ongoing investigation. In this particular instance (because there could be other instances where lying to the FBI and impeding an ongoing investigation could be treasonous), I don't see how this is treason.


The charge sheet is quite specific. Padopoulous "interfered [in] and impeded an investigation".

This gives rise to a number of further questions that are not completely answered by information available at the moment inlcuding:
*Which investigation did Padopoulous interfere with and/or impede?;
*Which form did this interference and/or impeding take?;
*Precisely what did Padopoulous hope to achieve by breaking the law in this matter ?;
*Was he breaking the law to protect his superiors?;
*How did these illegalities come to light in an investigation that focused on a possible Russian connection to the Trump campaign and Russian attempts to interfere with the election?;
*What is the connection between Padopoulous' crimes and the Russian matters? Is there a direct relationship?
*Were others involved in the Trump campaign connected to Padopoulous' crimes, and if so, what is the nature of their connection(s);
and many more questions.

Hopefully these quesitons will be answered as the investigation unfolds. The answers are bound to be intriguing, especially if it turns out that Padopoulous copped a guilty plea as part of an arrangement with Mueller which obliges him to 'spill the beans' on his superiors.

In fact the question of whether Padopoulous and Mueller have made a plea bargain deal is perhaps the most intriguing of them all ...




BoscoX -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 5:49:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
*Were others involved in the Trump campaign connected to Padopoulous' crimes, and if so, what is the nature of their connection(s);
and many more questions.


If you had a brain you would know without being told, his was the same "crime" that Jim Comey got that dangerous outlaw Martha Stewart on

[image]https://media.giphy.com/media/Bp7QKyjXCDaCs/giphy.gif[/image]




Lucylastic -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 5:56:46 AM)

sam clovis is the guy who was his higher up...there are emails...
the time line is interesting...




BoscoX -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:10:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

sam clovis is the guy who was his higher up...there are emails...
the time line is interesting...


DS addressed your concerns above, my sweet precious little flower





Lucylastic -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:12:37 AM)

Nah, information out since DS posted, sorry big boy...another fail.




BoscoX -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:27:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Nah, information out since DS posted, sorry big boy...another fail.


I see. That he had a higher up, and "there are emails" is news...

You are so very special

"Daddy's little retard"




Lucylastic -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:37:34 AM)

so nothing to discuss or debate again. Please just try and deflect a little harder would you.





bounty44 -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:45:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
sorry big boy...another fail.


in light of how many times you've "failed," this is about the last thing you should be attempting to call anyone out on.

most people strive to "get it right" but all of us fall short at one time or another.




Lucylastic -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 6:47:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
sorry big boy...another fail.


in light of how many times you've "failed," this is about the last thing you should be attempting to call anyone out on.


oh? and what exactly have I failed on, please post them, in dated order...
quick as you like.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 8:02:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
Actually, I think Manafort's support of the Party of Regions when they attacked a bus full of US troops is closer to Treason.


Could be, but the OP mentioned Papadopoulos being a bigger win for the anti-Trumpers, and I only addressed Papadopoulos.






DesideriScuri -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 8:06:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
According to the FBI's Offense Statement (.pdf):
    quote:

    Through his false statements and omissions, defendant PAPADOPOULOS impeded the FBI's ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the Campaign and the Russian government's efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.

He interfered and impeded an investigation. The offense statement neither proved nor refuted that the people Papadopoulos was in contact with actually had connections to Russian government officials. It also neither proved nor refuted that Papadopoulos ever had any direct or email contact with Russian government officials.
He is guilty of lying to the FBI, thereby impeding an ongoing investigation. In this particular instance (because there could be other instances where lying to the FBI and impeding an ongoing investigation could be treasonous), I don't see how this is treason.

The charge sheet is quite specific. Padopoulous "interfered [in] and impeded an investigation".
This gives rise to a number of further questions that are not completely answered by information available at the moment inlcuding:
*Which investigation did Padopoulous interfere with and/or impede?;
*Which form did this interference and/or impeding take?;
*Precisely what did Padopoulous hope to achieve by breaking the law in this matter ?;
*Was he breaking the law to protect his superiors?;
*How did these illegalities come to light in an investigation that focused on a possible Russian connection to the Trump campaign and Russian attempts to interfere with the election?;
*What is the connection between Padopoulous' crimes and the Russian matters? Is there a direct relationship?
*Were others involved in the Trump campaign connected to Padopoulous' crimes, and if so, what is the nature of their connection(s);
and many more questions.
Hopefully these quesitons will be answered as the investigation unfolds. The answers are bound to be intriguing, especially if it turns out that Padopoulous copped a guilty plea as part of an arrangement with Mueller which obliges him to 'spill the beans' on his superiors.
In fact the question of whether Padopoulous and Mueller have made a plea bargain deal is perhaps the most intriguing of them all ...


Actually, had you read the offense statement, I think almost all of your questions would be answered. But, that would require you actually having to click a couple links. FFS, I even included the direct link to the statement after finding it in the OP's article.

Good luck, Tweaks. I know clicking links is tough. [8|]




Lucylastic -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 8:11:47 AM)

I posted the link to the papadoc indictment on the mueller thread too




DesideriScuri -> RE: Manafort, Gates indicted after Papadopoulos...pleads guilty. (10/31/2017 8:15:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I posted the link to the papadoc indictment on the mueller thread too


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