This has me confused.

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jlf1961 -> This has me confused. (11/12/2017 8:32:08 AM)
Okay this is a strictly religious discussion, so bear with me. Looking at the things one does not do (i.e unforgivable sins, ticket straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars type) in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim faiths, suicide is a very big no no. With the exception of giving one's life to save another. And before the anti Muslim group chimes in, I will also add that in the Hadith (that nice book of the prophets sayings extremists use to justify terrorism) there is the following: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." — Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446 And the Qur'an is very blunt: And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you." — Qur'an, Sura 4 While some Muslim clerics will admit that suicidal martyrdom is acceptable in some instances, such as a suicidal charge at the enemy in the face of overwhelming odds and certain death, like the Japanese Banzai charges of WW2, blowing yourself up while surrounded by unarmed people is not one of them. So, these poor bastards who believed the suicide bullshit has gotten a rude surprise, since according to the prophet, how they killed themselves is exactly how they will spend their eternity in hell. However, this discussion is centered on a different aspect of suicide. A person terminally ill and suffering who commits suicide to be free of the pain, are they really committing a mortal sin? I mean they are going to die, and all they are doing is choosing the time and means of their death. Would that really be unforgivable? Would the creator really prefer they spend their remaining time in agony?

WhoreMods -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 8:39:19 AM)
Appalling as it sounds, from a Catholic viewpoint suicide is a mortal sin under any circumstances: there's been an awful lot of blather about it that pretty much boils down to God (in his infinite mercy) offering you a choice between spending the rest of your life, or the rest of eternity in torment, and some of the ~~heretical~~hardcore protestant sects take an even dimmer view of it, if that's possible. (To be fair there are other flavours of protestant who take a more accepting view of the matter, but I think the 'suicide is always a mortal sin, no matter what" group are the majority of Christians of any sect.)

Lucylastic -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 8:40:27 AM)
Sadly my dear until you get the word from the creator itself, man(woman etc) can only opine and point to books.

bounty44 -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 8:49:48 AM)
quote: Would that really be unforgivable? would the creator really prefer they spend their remaining time in agony? im not sure why you are asking that question as opposed to going directly to the catechism or the Vatican II and seeing what the catholic church says on the matter. also, you seem to be conflating "unforgiveable sin" with "mortal sin." as concerns the latter, it raises the question of can you ask forgiveness for something BEFORE you have committed it. quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods Appalling as it sounds, from a Catholic viewpoint suicide is a mortal sin under any circumstances: there's been an awful lot of blather about it that pretty much boils down to God (in his infinite mercy) offering you a choice between spending the rest of your life, or the rest of eternity in torment, and some of the ~~heretical~~hardcore protestant sects take an even dimmer view of it, if that's possible. (To be fair there are other flavours of protestant who take a more accepting view of the matter, but I think the 'suicide is always a mortal sin, no matter what" group are the majority of Christians of any sect.) the concept of "mortal sin" is overwhelmingly, if not strictly a catholic phrase, heavily related to their theology, so no, on the whole, a great number of protestant Christians do not believe what you just said they believe. whats ultimately at hand here is the question of once forgiven/always forgiven, or could one lose their salvation. the protestant church is very divided on that.

ResidentSadist -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 8:58:32 AM)
Their death is not seen as an act of suicide. They didn't blow themselves up to end their life. They died killing you... as part of the delivery system to cause the death of infidels and effect jihad... in which the Qur'an makes them a martyr. I believe they see themselves as soldiers fighting with bombs, plane crashes, car crashes etc, not as suicides. They are focused on the rewards of martyrdom as promised in the Qur'an. [image]https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/axGXxY1_700b.jpg[/image]

MasterDrakk -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:00:54 AM)
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (1 Jn 5:16-17) Uh, John was not a catholic. So the 'catholic' of the notion is ridiculous The consensus among Protestants is that some sins are worse than others, but even the smallest sin deserves God's wrath. Or, put another way, sins are equally damning, but not equally heinous. The Westminster Shorter Catechism puts it succinctly: Every sin deserves God's wrath and curse, both in this life, and that which is to come. (Answer 84) Some sins [...] are more heinous in the sight of God than others. (Answer 83) Reformed theologians like Louis Berkhof1 and John Frame2 follow this framework. So do Baptists like A. H. Strong3 and Wayne Grudem.4 Grudem explains: In terms of our legal standing before God, any one sin, even what may seem to be a very small one, makes us legally guilty before God and therefore worthy of eternal punishment. On the other hand, some sins are worse than others in that they have more harmful consequences in our lives and in the lives of others, and, in terms of our personal relationship to God as Father, they arouse his displeasure more and bring more serious disruption to our fellowship with him. Arminian theologian H. Orton Wiley5 similarly holds that the penalty of sin is "death physical, temporal and eternal," but that the term "penalty [...] must be made to include the consequences of all the various evils included in sin." He thus describes "degrees of both guilt and penalty as in the case of sins of ignorance or infirmity as over against sins of knowledge." Anglican W. H. Griffith Thomas6 explains that "[a]ll sin is deadly in that it tends toward death, but there are sins which because they are deliberately committed against light are obviously more injurious to the soul." Lutheran theologian John Mueller, condensing Franz Pieper's work,7 likewise writes: Every transgression of the divine Law is rebellion against God and therefore damnable, Gal. 3, 10. From the viewpoint of damnability therefore we cannot speak of "smaller" and "greater" sins. Still Scripture itself distinguishes degrees in sinning [....] [and] degrees also in the eternal punishment which the damned will suffer. https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/41820/do-protestants-believe-that-all-sins-are-equal Protestants know mortal sins, those which lead to death, the denial of the Holy Ghost, for an example. Guess I am a goner, LOL.

bounty44 -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:10:38 AM)
the thing is mnottertroll, by another other name, youre simply not worth responding to with a serious post, except for to say that your unfamiliarity with the subject matter leaves you talking about things of which you have no real understanding. that only leaves the conclusion that youre doing so out of pure contentiousness.

Marini -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Sadly my dear until you get the word from the creator itself, man(woman etc) can only opine and point to books. Great answer Lucy, but there is a way around this, for those that are REALLY confused or concerned. We all have the RIGHT to refuse medical interventions, that is not suicide, that is letting what will be--be. As I type this, I am guilty of NOT having MY health care directives in place!! Legal health care directives allow you to inform medical professionals and family members about what kind of care you want, when you can't communicate those wishes yourself' That is something, I plan to take care of the near future!!! Things like : Living will, durable power of attorney for health care, etc. About 20 years ago, I worked in nursing homes for a couple of years. Personally, I always want pain medication {and lots of it, depending on what is going on}....more morphine please! Thank you. [:D] I also want oxygen, and a few other things. At this stage of the game, I do not want to be on life support, especially if I am brain damaged. Back to the OP, we all have the RIGHT to refuse medical treatment/especially invasive or dreadful treatments, I don't consider that suicide- I consider it not fighting "the transition". If I am in agony, I am going to get the medical marijuana, the pain meds {the good stuff}, see my friends and loved ones, and go "out" with a smile. These days, there really is NO need to be in agony, if you have health care. You might be doped the fuck up, but so what? I rather be doped up to the max, then die in pain. Many people are medically assisted {slowly or quickly}, and it is NOT considered "suicide". I have seen people who have stopped eating, and were given morphine to ease the pain, and they increase the dosage---and believe me when you stop eating/REFUSE a feeding tube, and take morphine---you are on your way out. I saw one lovely senior "go" this way, and she never appeared to be in pain, and was smiling the last time I saw her. In the end, there are "legal alternatives" to suicide for those that are terminally ill or in extreme pain. I don't consider this "suicide" when you are already dying. I will not touch the other conversations, that will surely take place on this thread. Peace

BoscoX -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:15:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Their death is not seen as an act of suicide. They didn't blow themselves up to end their life. They died killing you... as part of the delivery system to cause the death of infidels and effect jihad... in which the Qur'an makes them a martyr. I believe they see themselves as soldiers fighting with bombs, plane crashes, car crashes etc, not as suicides. They are focused on the rewards of martyrdom as promised in the Qur'an. [image]https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/axGXxY1_700b.jpg[/image] Exactly right - which is why we call them "suicide bombers" It is extremely insulting to them.

WhoreMods -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:17:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 the concept of "mortal sin" is overwhelmingly, if not strictly a catholic phrase, heavily related to their theology... So is the notion of God sending his son to earth to redeem our sins by dying for us. When the protestants have dropped that one, then you can start dismissing other stuff as decadent Catholic stupidity. (And the once saved forever saved thing is not a big debate: apart from the Baptists and the Calvinists, does anybody else still believe that one? Even the Methodists have given up on it now.)

DaddySatyr -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:22:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 However, this discussion is centered on a different aspect of suicide. A person terminally ill and suffering who commits suicide to be free of the pain, are they really committing a mortal sin? I mean they are going to die, and all they are doing is choosing the time and means of their death. Would that really be unforgivable? Would the creator really prefer they spend their remaining time in agony? As an old, "recovering Catholic" and someone who has already made a decision for my future, I'll address this part. Two words: "perfect contrition". It's what I'm hoping and praying for. I have believed for over forty years that ANY waste of life is a sin. Perfect contrition is my only hope.

Lucylastic -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:27:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Sadly my dear until you get the word from the creator itself, man(woman etc) can only opine and point to books. Great answer Lucy, but there is a way around this, for those that are REALLY confused or concerned. We all have the RIGHT to refuse medical interventions, that is not suicide, that is letting what will be--be. As I type this, I am guilty of NOT having MY health care directives in place!! Legal health care directives allow you to inform medical professionals and family members about what kind of care you want, when you can't communicate those wishes yourself' That is something, I plan to take care of the near future!!! Things like : Living will, durable power of attorney for health care, etc. About 20 years ago, I worked in nursing homes for a couple of years. Long story short---folks have your health care directives in place. Personally, I always want pain medication {and lots of it, depending on what is going on}....more morphine please! Thank you. [:D] I also want oxygen, and a few other things. At this stage of the game, I do not want to be on life support, especially if I am brain damaged. Back to the OP, we all have the RIGHT to refuse medical treatment/especially invasive or dreadful treatments, I don't consider that suicide- I consider it not fighting "the transition". If I am in agony, I am going to get the medical marijuana, the pain meds {the good stuff}, see my friends and loved ones, and go "out" with a smile. These days, there really is NO need to be in agony, if you have health care. Many people are medically assisted {slowly or quickly}, and it is NOT considered "suicide". I have seen people who have stopped eating, and were given morphine to ease the pain, and they increase the dosage---and believe me when you stop eating/REFUSE a feeding tube, and take morphine---you are on your way out. I saw one lovely senior "go" this way, and she never appeared to be in pain, and was smiling the last time I saw her. Im happy we now have legal assisted suicide in canada... Like you I have a history of working in nursing homes, retirement homes, hospice and geriatric care and have no intention of letting my kids have to make decisions that I have seen people go through. I have a living will video, and what should happen should I be unable to communicate. Suicide, is another subject I know a lot about personally and professionally, I dont like dealing with it, but I cant blame a terminally or chronically sick person for not wanting to suffer any more.

Marini -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:32:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Sadly my dear until you get the word from the creator itself, man(woman etc) can only opine and point to books. Great answer Lucy, but there is a way around this, for those that are REALLY confused or concerned. We all have the RIGHT to refuse medical interventions, that is not suicide, that is letting what will be--be. As I type this, I am guilty of NOT having MY health care directives in place!! Legal health care directives allow you to inform medical professionals and family members about what kind of care you want, when you can't communicate those wishes yourself' That is something, I plan to take care of the near future!!! Things like : Living will, durable power of attorney for health care, etc. About 20 years ago, I worked in nursing homes for a couple of years. Long story short---folks have your health care directives in place. Personally, I always want pain medication {and lots of it, depending on what is going on}....more morphine please! Thank you. [:D] I also want oxygen, and a few other things. At this stage of the game, I do not want to be on life support, especially if I am brain damaged. Back to the OP, we all have the RIGHT to refuse medical treatment/especially invasive or dreadful treatments, I don't consider that suicide- I consider it not fighting "the transition". If I am in agony, I am going to get the medical marijuana, the pain meds {the good stuff}, see my friends and loved ones, and go "out" with a smile. These days, there really is NO need to be in agony, if you have health care. Many people are medically assisted {slowly or quickly}, and it is NOT considered "suicide". I have seen people who have stopped eating, and were given morphine to ease the pain, and they increase the dosage---and believe me when you stop eating/REFUSE a feeding tube, and take morphine---you are on your way out. I saw one lovely senior "go" this way, and she never appeared to be in pain, and was smiling the last time I saw her. Im happy we now have legal assisted suicide in canada... Like you I have a history of working in nursing homes, retirement homes, hospice and geriatric care and have no intention of letting my kids have to make decisions that I have seen people go through. I have a living will video, and what should happen should I be unable to communicate. Suicide, is another subject I know a lot about personally and professionally, I dont like dealing with it, but I cant blame a terminally or chronically sick person for not wanting to suffer any more. Canada is often, forward thinking. [;)] I agree, isn't it funny how words can be used? I don't consider using alternative methods, or refusing invasive treatments "suicide", all medical interventions are a "choice". That often makes it a lot simpler. Example- I have no thyroid--to live I must take Synthroid or something similar for the rest of my life. Suicide {FOR ME} is something you physically DO to yourself, not deciding to stop medical interventions. Many people REFUSE to go to the doctors, even with life threatening symptoms, that is a choice. Many people REFUSE chemotherapy and invasive cancer treatments, that is a choice. I NEVER want to live hooked up to machines, with little chance of coming out of it, that is MY choice. What if I decide to stop taking the Synthroid? That is a choice, not suicide. We have a lot of "consent" threads, running around this place. We have the right to "consent" or "not consent" to medical care. [;)] Just want to add, this year I became one of "those people", and I am embracing a very healthy lifestyle. Many people are eating, drinking, smoking, or abusing themselves to death. What the hell is suicide, these days? !!! One more point for the road, people are always commenting on "sins", or trying to pick apart "sins". Hell, gluttony is a sin, don't get me started! Peace

bounty44 -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:52:29 AM)
here's a pertinent section from a book I just grabbed out of my collection: "a biblical answer that a roman catholic could give to the question "have you been saved?" might be something like this: "yes I have been saved when jesus died on the cross for me 2000 yrs ago on calvary, and thus, redeemed all of humanity. (each phrase has supporting scripture im omitting for brevity) "yes I am being saved as I strive, with the help of the holy spirit to walk faithfully with jesus Christ each and ever day of my life. my baptism has configured me to jesus Christ. "yes I hope to be saved when jesus comes again at the end of time for the final judgment. I pray that I persevere in my daily walk with the lord and that I do not backslide unrepentantly into serious post-baptismal mortal sin." so regarding suicide as a "mortal sin" again, the questions are, which is the right answer "once saved/always saved" or "you can lose your salvation. AND, if its the latter---can you repent of a mortal sin BEFORE you commit it.

DaddySatyr -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 9:57:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 so regarding suicide as a "mortal sin" again, the questions are, which is the right answer "once saved/always saved" or "you can lose your salvation. AND, if its the latter---can you repent of a mortal sin BEFORE you commit it. Can an old recovering Catholic answer this? Fuck it. I'm not going to wait for an answer. First, by way of explanation: I was raised a Traditional Catholic. We did NOT follow the changes of Vatican II. We believe that some of the changes made by VII were heretical (I won't explain why unless asked). Okay. So, we followed the rules of Catholicism up to (and including) the Papacy of Pius XII. We were encouraged (because of our stance against the Vatican) to read the doctors of the church, canon law, papal bulls and encyclicals. In our faith, it was our duty to educate ourselves since the Vatican abdicated that authority. All of that said, NO CATHOLICS (to my knowledge) believe "once saved, always saved". If one dies with a mortal sin on their soul that has not been forgiven by the Holy Ghost (by way of a priest), they are going to Hell. Our position on suicide was that it was the ONLY sin that could not be forgiven save "perfect contrition". Also, presuming God's forgiveness before committing a sin was, itself, a sin whose severity (venial or mortal) was dependent upon the "predicate sin". In other words: If I'm thinking about stealing $50 from some old lady's purse (a bigger sin than stealing $100 from some multi-million dollar corporation), if part of my "planning" is: "God will forgive me. I'm down on my luck. I'll just 'hit the booth' on Saturday and I'll be good to go.", I'm guilty of a mortal sin just for *presuming* God will forgive me. Peace, Michael

bounty44 -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 10:27:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 so regarding suicide as a "mortal sin" again, the questions are, which is the right answer "once saved/always saved" or "you can lose your salvation. AND, if its the latter---can you repent of a mortal sin BEFORE you commit it. Can an old recovering Catholic answer this? All of that said, NO CATHOLICS (to my knowledge) believe "once saved, always saved". If one dies with a mortal sin on their soul that has not been forgiven by the Holy Ghost (by way of a priest), they are going to Hell. Our position on suicide was that it was the ONLY sin that could not be forgiven save "perfect contrition". Also, presuming God's forgiveness before committing a sin was, itself, a sin whose severity (venial or mortal) was dependent upon the "predicate sin". In other words: If I'm thinking about stealing $50 from some old lady's purse (a bigger sin than stealing $100 from some multi-million dollar corporation), if part of my "planning" is: "God will forgive me. I'm down on my luck. I'll just 'hit the booth' on Saturday and I'll be good to go.", I'm guilty of a mortal sin just for *presuming* God will forgive me. Peace, Michael I agree, thinking of "forgiveness" beforehand does involve a lot of presumption and even hubris. im also in confident agreement with you on that the catholic position isnt "once saved/always saved" --otherwise, there wouldn't be such distinctions as mortal and venial sins, and probably the heavy emphasis on the confessional. im not sure the protestant church would qualify the former as sin, or at least always. but I do know, as I said above, a large portion of the protestant church holds to the idea of once saved/always saved. that doesn't mean however that they don't view suicide as a sin. then there's the question of what about engaging in behavior, purposefully, that we know is sin. you might do well Michael to elaborate on your "perfect contrition" sentiment in light of suicide.

DaddySatyr -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 10:42:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I agree, thinking of "forgiveness" beforehand does involve a lot of presumption and even hubris. im also in confident agreement with you on that the catholic position isnt "once saved/always saved" --otherwise, there wouldn't be such distinctions as mortal and venial sins, and probably the heavy emphasis on the confessional. im not sure the protestant church would qualify the former as sin, or at least always. but I do know, as I said above, a large portion of the protestant church holds to the idea of once saved/always saved. that doesn't mean however that they don't view suicide as a sin. I remember a guy who was my best friend, got "saved" (because his then girlfriend now wife insisted he "give himself to Jesus" and start attending a bible-thumpin' Baptist church). He frequently engaged in a lot of the behaviors that his paramour (and church) railed against on a regular basis. He had a bumper sticker on his car to which he would always refer me: "Christians aren't perfect. They're forgiven" I asked about his mindset on this. I asked: "You're confident that no matter what sin you commit, God will forgive you" and his answer was always some form of: (Going back to an earlier discussion between you and I, bounty) "If I ask God's forgiveness through His only son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, he will forgive me anything." Presumption in the Nth degree, as far as I'm concerned. Peace, Michael

bounty44 -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 10:56:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I asked about his mindset on this. I asked: "You're confident that no matter what sin you commit, God will forgive you" and his answer was always some form of: (Going back to an earlier discussion between you and I, bounty) "If I ask God's forgiveness through His only son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, he will forgive me anything." Presumption in the Nth degree, as far as I'm concerned. Peace, Michael it might be, but there are a lot of well studied, well reasoned, very smart people of faith who have made the once saved/always saved argument using scripture.

WhoreMods -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 11:42:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I agree, thinking of "forgiveness" beforehand does involve a lot of presumption and even hubris. im also in confident agreement with you on that the catholic position isnt "once saved/always saved" --otherwise, there wouldn't be such distinctions as mortal and venial sins, and probably the heavy emphasis on the confessional. im not sure the protestant church would qualify the former as sin, or at least always. but I do know, as I said above, a large portion of the protestant church holds to the idea of once saved/always saved. that doesn't mean however that they don't view suicide as a sin. I remember a guy who was my best friend, got "saved" (because his then girlfriend now wife insisted he "give himself to Jesus" and start attending a bible-thumpin' Baptist church). He frequently engaged in a lot of the behaviors that his paramour (and church) railed against on a regular basis. He had a bumper sticker on his car to which he would always refer me: "Christians aren't perfect. They're forgiven" I asked about his mindset on this. I asked: "You're confident that no matter what sin you commit, God will forgive you" and his answer was always some form of: (Going back to an earlier discussion between you and I, bounty) "If I ask God's forgiveness through His only son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, he will forgive me anything." Presumption in the Nth degree, as far as I'm concerned. Peace, Michael The real point of that one is the notion that if you believe hard enough you don't have to do any of those good works that are suggested throughout the new testament yourself.

DaddySatyr -> RE: This has me confused. (11/12/2017 12:12:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterDrakk Guess I am a goner, LOL. True Christians know the phrase: "We live in hope"

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