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The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/13/2017 9:14:02 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Given this administration’s disregard for matters of civil rights, it seemed best to gird for the worst: full retreat. That Ms. DeVos instead opted for a deliberative approach, including public input about potential changes, was a welcome surprise. It should be encouraged by those who want a just handling of these fraught cases.

Ms. DeVos, while crediting the Obama administration for bringing the issue of campus sexual assaults “into the light of day,” blasted the current system as failing both victims and the accused and being too onerous for administrators.

Advocates for survivors of sexual violence seized on her criticism in particular her concern about the need for due process for the accused as a betrayal that backtracks on protections for victims. But Ms. DeVos was unequivocal in stating that there must be no tolerance for sexual misconduct and that universities and colleges have a responsibility to combat it.

She is not alone in seeing some problems with how the guidelines have been implemented, as she illustrated with stories from students both survivors and those accused about how the system failed them. In a detailed examination, the Atlantic’s Emily Yoffe argued that many remedies pushed on campuses “are unjust to men, infantilize women, and ultimately undermine the legitimacy of the fight against sexual violence.”

Groups such as the American Association of University Professors and the American College of Trial Lawyers have called for changes in the standard of proof used in campus disciplinary proceedings. Professors in the law schools at Harvard University, the University of Pennsylvania and other institutions wrote an open letter about their concern over the absence of due process.

HERE


Seems Devos and I admit, I am surprised, is making the right move. As is Carson at HUD. He's also had an awakening seeing what the fed. can get done. ($6 billion in reduction will put more than 250,000 families/people, into the street) Rent and work requirements are coming along with income breaks.

How about she (they all) now trim the bureaucracy ? Simple, maybe get the $6 billion back. Trust me people, I worked in DC for many years and my customers were the federal govt. and the Dept. of Education and yes, Labor, Commerce, and others, NEVER stop hiring. They are bloated monstrosities.


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith
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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/13/2017 10:04:48 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		After the media villianised her for being clueless for so many things. Glad she is taking up a good cause. The sexual assault in schools in the US is appalling.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 9:53:07 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		I really got a giggle over clueless journalists lambasting a clueless politico for being clueless.

The lack of due process on College Campuses is an extreme version of a trend in the last 20 years of requiring people to sign away their right to petition the government to redress grievances in general society.

What I'm talking about is requiring people to sign a document requiring "binding arbitration" instead of going to the courts for legal redress. Many Universities require students to agree to arbitration by a committee set by the university as a requirement for admission. This is also done with purchase and service contracts removing the right of a customer to sue for damages or failure to perform in favor of "binding arbitration".

When President Obama quoted the debunked Monmouth Study in public it really put the official stamp of approval on a fallacious claim used for emotional street cred points by activists for years.
According the the Department of Justice, the incidence of sexual assault on college campuses is 1 in 53 with the incidence in the general public is 1 in 42. (Women aged 19 to 25) The long standing claim of 1 in 4 has been thoroughly debunked as it came from a study done on a single college campus with only 86 participants in the study. Also, the study participants received benefits for participating in the study.

DeVos has worked to return to due process instead of the "je accuse" version of Kangaroo Court Committees that colleges were pushed to implement under the Obama regime.

The "Mattress Girl" fiasco at UVA with collusion of Rolling Stone magazine is a good example of the ridiculous level things got to on campus. A false accusation that had been investigated by local police and the FBI became a wild crazy issue when Rolling Stone published the story. The accuser is a performance artist that carried a mattress around in protest for several years in protest to the lack of prosecution of the fraternity that she accused of sexual assault. The claims were proven to be manufactured, btw.


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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 11:40:43 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
The long standing claim of 1 in 4 has been thoroughly debunked as it came from a study done on a single college campus with only 86 participants in the study. Also, the study participants received benefits for participating in the study.


if I am remembering rightly too, they also defined sexual assault in a very watered down, bordering on meaningless way.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 2:23:30 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		@bounty44

Are you referring to questions like?

Did you ever have sex with a partner after drinking?
- yes gets committed sexual assault checked

Have you ever talked a partner into having sex?
- yes implies coerced a person into sex

One of the things I tend to question is the validity of statistical studies conducted by people who are not required to take statistics for a degree in their field. Just thinking of a lot of "studies" that come down to documenting case anecdotes picked to be part of the issue described in the precis and calling the conclusion "definitive".
Being in the hard sciences; I have trouble with studies that aren't reproducible. It is hard enough to get reproducible results in biology and medical fields but the social sciences are positively abysmal for producing studies with reproducible results.

If you look at the original Monmouth study that you can definitely state that at a Midwestern Community College with primarily commuter students you can pay in course credit a bit under hundred sophomore college guys to fess up to 25% of them doing everything short of forcible rape to get laid.
Did you ever initiate a sexual encounter with a sleeping partner?
- reported as rape of unconscious victim.

One commentary on the study had a good image; "if there isn't a sign on the forehead flashing proceed it is assault".

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 2:59:28 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I really got a giggle over clueless journalists lambasting a clueless politico for being clueless.

The lack of due process on College Campuses is an extreme version of a trend in the last 20 years of requiring people to sign away their right to petition the government to redress grievances in general society.

What I'm talking about is requiring people to sign a document requiring "binding arbitration" instead of going to the courts for legal redress. Many Universities require students to agree to arbitration by a committee set by the university as a requirement for admission. This is also done with purchase and service contracts removing the right of a customer to sue for damages or failure to perform in favor of "binding arbitration".

When President Obama quoted the debunked Monmouth Study in public it really put the official stamp of approval on a fallacious claim used for emotional street cred points by activists for years.
According the the Department of Justice, the incidence of sexual assault on college campuses is 1 in 53 with the incidence in the general public is 1 in 42. (Women aged 19 to 25) The long standing claim of 1 in 4 has been thoroughly debunked as it came from a study done on a single college campus with only 86 participants in the study. Also, the study participants received benefits for participating in the study.

DeVos has worked to return to due process instead of the "je accuse" version of Kangaroo Court Committees that colleges were pushed to implement under the Obama regime.

The "Mattress Girl" fiasco at UVA with collusion of Rolling Stone magazine is a good example of the ridiculous level things got to on campus. A false accusation that had been investigated by local police and the FBI became a wild crazy issue when Rolling Stone published the story. The accuser is a performance artist that carried a mattress around in protest for several years in protest to the lack of prosecution of the fraternity that she accused of sexual assault. The claims were proven to be manufactured, btw.


Yes, you are correct. The 'people' have constitutional protections against the power of govt. yet have no and will get no such protections against the power of business.

Yes there is anecdotal evidence of such wrongs on both sides of just what comprises real sexual assault. However, to the extent that Obama wrought some of that in his new policy that Devos addresses, it was too one-sided.

The change in policy seems to desire and may effect an outcome that will bring it all back to reality which it seems to me, would include a stricter more accurate definition of just what is sexual assault.

Obama went too far, surprisingly Devos is consulting all sides of the debate and is seeking a more pragmatic return to a historical crime and punishment regime. Alcohol and seduction will not likely enter into it as automatic guilt.

Devos also reinforces the idea of responsibility putting the onus squarely on the universities and local authorities to enforce what the law really asks. Do this and [they] get their federal money.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 4:15:27 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		exactly that...

but that said, it would be rare for a doctoral program in any social science field to not have either stand alone statistics requirements, or as part of various research methods class.

in this case though, its less a matter of statistics per se, and more a matter of construct validity---that's as much if not more a methods thing. that is, the test/study is not really measuring what its purporting to measure.

the bummer thing is, sometimes agenda's get in the way of sound research and even worse, allowing for bad research to be published.

an another hand, not having followed the trail from beginning to end, with the end being how the study was reported to the public by journalists, its hard to completely fault the original researchers. I suspect all sorts of folks along the way messed up.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/14/2017 10:37:15 PM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Did you ever have sex with a partner after drinking?
- yes gets committed sexual assault checked

Have you ever talked a partner into having sex?
- yes implies coerced a person into sex


I think those questions are valid, because we are dealing with teenagers. Kids! I know in the US, 18 is an adult. But is it really? They are still kids. They can't are deem too immature and still a minor to even handle alcohol until 21 yr old. It could be their first few times sneaking alcohol. They have not built a tolerance.

And it's traumatic for a teenager still finding her way to report sexual assaults. To even try to claim it's not true, is like totally trivializing the situation. If people took it seriously and took the side of the victims and build stronger laws to make it okay for them to come out and report.

This is correct direction.

I am glad Betsy is calling for more protection. To me in college, they are all still vulnerable teenagers. And for many could be their first foray into sexual things.

I was just watching a program of cultural difference, of Domenican Republic and the US. Where the DR male felt women in his country, having sex from 12 yr old is okay, so he is encouraging the 17 yr old step daughter to have sex. He said kids are considered adults younger in DR, and at 17, she is already an adult and should be able to do whatever she wants. Which of course pissed off the American mom, who say that in America. Fathers do not encourage daughters to have sex at 17!

17 to 18 to 20 to 21. They are all still kids! And I think there needs to be a better system to reduce incidents. Even just 1 incident is 1 incident too much.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/15/2017 12:12:50 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		And I was just thinking, these days, sexual assault are not just women. When men get sexually assaulted, especially with the potential bullying, it is by other men too. And then at the beginning of life, to actually get attacked like that, could even be worst for a man than a woman, because a woman can cry for help. A man will feel like, he should be man enough to defend himself.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/15/2017 3:32:46 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Did you ever have sex with a partner after drinking?
- yes gets committed sexual assault checked

Have you ever talked a partner into having sex?
- yes implies coerced a person into sex


I think those questions are valid, because we are dealing with teenagers. Kids! I know in the US, 18 is an adult. But is it really? They are still kids. They can't are deem too immature and still a minor to even handle alcohol until 21 yr old. It could be their first few times sneaking alcohol. They have not built a tolerance.


greta, they may be "valid" questions if one is just inquiring into overall sexuality of college students, but when those questions are used under the rubric of "sexual assault", they most definitely are not.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/15/2017 8:58:35 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		@bounty44

Age of reason
Age of consent
Age of majority
Age of maturity

Those are old school concepts that there is often a difference of opinion on.

The age of reason is the age where a human can make decisions for themselves and not be controlled 24/7. i.e. moves from baby to being a child.

The age of consent is the age where a human child can reasonably be expected to understand the consequences of their actions and consent or dissent with instructions. i.e. a teenager. The age of consent is classically the age at which a human can consent to sexual contact. In the world, the age can be as low as 11 and as high as 21. Most states use 16 as that age in the U.S. How old do you need to be to obtain a driver's license. How old do you need to be to marry with parental consent? What is the age at which any sexual contact is considered rape where you live? Most places that is an age younger than 18.

The age of majority is the age where a human is mature enough to have a voice in governance. i.e. voting age. In the U.S. that is currently 18.

The age of reason is considered to be full maturity and a human of that age should be mature enough not only to participate in governance but be one of those doing the governing. i.e. the minimum age requirement of 25 for House of Representatives, 30 for the Senate, and 33 to be President. As there is a biological fact that the brain fully develops around age 25 there is some scientific basis for this tradition.

College students are not "children" but are adults in our society. Citing drinking age of 21 is not an argument as the 21 drinking age was a political blackmail perpetrated by Joan Claybrook back when she headed the NHTSA.

When the 26th amendment lowered the age of majority from 21 to 18; a huge movement for "old enough to die, old enough for a beer" kicked in lowering drinking ages state by state to 18. If you were old enough to be drafted and sent to Vietnam you should be able to buy your own beer. A small fraction of legislators were horrified by teenagers having adult responsibilities and tried to change that. A national level bill on drinking age had no traction and was considered unconstitutional by many. So, the threat of withholding federal highway money was used to blackmail states into enacting a 55 mph speed limit, drinking age raised to 21. Some of the more nonsensical attempts, like mandatory seat belts on motorcycles, were stopped by the president. So, drinking between 18 and 21 was and is a very regional and idiotic distinction. (i.e. Louisiana refused to be blackmailed and still has a 18 year old drinking age. In 1986, Congress pushed through a bogus piece of legislation again blackmailing the states into raising the drinking age again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimum_purchase_age_by_state

I say bogus because if a person is old enough to be required to die in the military they should be old enough to make decisions about their body, their behavior, and deal with the consequences of their decisions. If 18 is too young for a drink, then it should be too young to vote, too young to get elective surgery, too young to purchase their own birth control without parental permission, too young to sign a credit contract, and too young to be allowed to keep children. If you want to infantalize late teens, go whole hog.

Yeah, I'm one of those curmudgeons that considers the solution to irresponsible behavior to be accountability not coddling.

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RE: The corrected message on campus sexual assault. - 11/15/2017 9:03:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Yeah, I'm one of those curmudgeons that considers the solution to irresponsible behavior to be accountability not coddling.


I fear that sentiment starting going buh-bye with the Boomers.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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