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'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/14/2017 1:57:08 PM   
MercTech


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Sometimes, activism has consequences. Germany's "Green Party" has been howling down dissenting opinions for decades and there are consequences.

I always think of the 1993 study of electric generation and environmental impact when I read something on this subject. Nuclear electric generation clocked in as the second cheapest coupled with the least environmentally impacting. (all hazards are required by law to be detected and controlled with Nuclear instead of released to the environment)

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/EE-Anti-nuclear-Germany-is-Europes-biggest-GHG-emitter-13111701.html
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/14/2017 3:29:42 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Sometimes, activism has consequences. Germany's "Green Party" has been howling down dissenting opinions for decades and there are consequences.
I always think of the 1993 study of electric generation and environmental impact when I read something on this subject. Nuclear electric generation clocked in as the second cheapest coupled with the least environmentally impacting. (all hazards are required by law to be detected and controlled with Nuclear instead of released to the environment)
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/EE-Anti-nuclear-Germany-is-Europes-biggest-GHG-emitter-13111701.html


Germany's GDP is the highest in the EU, roughly, 30% higher than #2, UK. So, I'm not surprised it also has the highest GHG emissions in the EU.

https://carboncounter.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/emissions.png

Interestingly enough, since 2011, when it decided to start shuttering it's nuclear plants, it's GHG emissions haven't changed much. I don't know how many reactors have been mothballed, but if their emissions haven't changed much since the decision and they have shuttered some, it might actually be a positive story.

Edited to take the picture out and just leave the link. It was way too large.


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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/14/2017 5:58:33 PM   
MercTech


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The German plants haven't been mothballed as they need the generating capability but the construction permits for new plants have been left in limbo.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/14/2017 6:37:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
The German plants haven't been mothballed as they need the generating capability but the construction permits for new plants have been left in limbo.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany
    quote:

    Eight of the seventeen operating reactors in Germany were permanently shut down following Fukushima. Chancellor Angela Merkel said the nuclear power phase-out, previously scheduled to go offline as late as 2036, would give Germany a competitive advantage in the renewable energy era, ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#Closures_and_phase-out
    quote:

    During the chancellorship of Gerhard Schröder, the social democratic-green government had decreed Germany's final retreat from using nuclear power by 2022, but the phase-out plan was initially delayed in late 2010, when during chancellorship of center-right Angela Merkel the coalition conservative-liberal government decreed a 12-year delay of the schedule.[18] This delay provoked protests, including a human chain of 50,000 from Stuttgart to the nearby nuclear plant in Neckarwestheim.[19] Anti-nuclear demonstrations on 12 March attracted 100,000 across Germany.[20]

    On 14 March 2011, in response to the renewed concern about the use of nuclear energy the Fukushima incident raised in the German public and in light of upcoming elections in three German states, Merkel declared a 3-month moratorium on the reactor lifespan extension passed in 2010.[21] On 15 March, the German government announced that it would temporarily shut down 8 of its 17 reactors, i.e. all reactors that went online before 1981.[22] Former proponents of nuclear energy such as Angela Merkel, Guido Westerwelle, and Stefan Mappus have changed their positions,[23] yet 71% of the population believe that to be a tactical manoeuvre related to upcoming state elections.[24] In the largest anti-nuclear demonstration ever held in Germany, some 250,000 people protested on 26 March under the slogan "heed Fukushima – shut off all nuclear plants".[25]

    On 30 May 2011, the German government announced a plan to shut all nuclear reactors by 2022.[26] Environment Minister Norbert Röttgen stated of the decision, "It's definite. The latest end for the last three nuclear power plants is 2022. There will be no clause for revision".[4] Prior to the decision, Germany's renewable energy sector already provided 17% of Germany's electricity and employed about 370,000.[7] The decision to phase-out nuclear power has been called the swiftest change of political course since unification.[27] Only a year earlier Angela Merkel's government overturned a decade-old decision to close all nuclear plants by 2022.[27]

    Physicist Amory Lovins has said: "Chancellor Merkel was so shocked by Fukushima that she turned Germany’s energy focus from nuclear (of which she closed 41% and will close the rest within a decade) to efficiency and renewables. That’s supported by three-fourths of Germans and opposed by no political party".[28]

    Merkel stated that Germany "[does not] only want to renounce nuclear energy by 2022, we also want to reduce our CO2 emissions by 40 percent and double our share of renewable energies, from about 17 percent today to then 35 percent". The chancellor noted the "helplessness" of Japan to manage the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster. Merkel asserted that Germany's energy policy would be safe, reliable, and independent from imports, with affordable prices for both consumers and industry. Increased investment in natural gas plants would provide a backup to ensure consistency for those times when the solar, wind and hydroelectric sources did not meet demand.[7]

    At the time of the Japanese Fukushima disaster, Germany was getting just under a quarter of its electricity from nuclear power.[7] After the Fukushima disaster, the following eight German nuclear power reactors were declared permanently shut down on 6 August 2011: Biblis A and B, Brunsbuettel, Isar 1, Kruemmel, Neckarwestheim 1, Philippsburg 1 and Unterweser.[29]

    Some German manufacturers and energy companies have criticized the phase-out plans, warning that Germany could face blackouts.[30] However, this did not happen.[31] Germany remained a net exporter of about 5 TWh of power in 2011 after exporting 17.7 TWh in 2010, according to data published by the energy utility association "AG Energiebilanzen" in February 2012.[32] Swedish Energy company Vattenfall went in front of the World Bank's International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID) to seek compensation from the German government for the premature shut-down of its nuclear plants


So, Germany has shuttered 8 of 17 nuke plants. From that action, they have seen their export of power drop by, roughly, 12.7 TWh. That means they are generating, roughly, 12.5 TWh (assuming some increased usage from growth) less then before.

Generating less power with about the same GHG emissions doesn't really look like it's going swimmingly there.


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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/14/2017 11:37:02 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Sometimes, activism has consequences.


Can't have that! Back to the plantations, I say!

So, what's all this about, anyway? Something from a nuke promotional scribe? How unbiased can we get, here?

Let's have a look;

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/EE-Anti-nuclear-Germany-is-Europes-biggest-GHG-emitter-13111701.html

"Germany is "by far the largest emitter" - accounting for 18.3% of the total greenhouse gas emissions of the European Union, the European Free Trade Association and Turkey"

Well, how about that.

Anyway, according to this; Greenhouse gas emissions per capita, the US ranks #14, Russia #23, and Germany #33 in per capita GHG.

So then consider that Germany easily doubles total exports of Japan (#35 in GHG) with only 79% of their population.

Maybe if everybody would just quit buying all these superior goods from Deutschland, their GHG number might go down a bit.

But it's just so American to tell everybody else how to run their own business, 'freedom lovers' that we are.





< Message edited by Edwird -- 11/15/2017 12:16:07 AM >

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 3:42:12 AM   
blnymph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Sometimes, activism has consequences. Germany's "Green Party" has been howling down dissenting opinions for decades and there are consequences.

I always think of the 1993 study of electric generation and environmental impact when I read something on this subject. Nuclear electric generation clocked in as the second cheapest coupled with the least environmentally impacting. (all hazards are required by law to be detected and controlled with Nuclear instead of released to the environment)

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/EE-Anti-nuclear-Germany-is-Europes-biggest-GHG-emitter-13111701.html


Nuclear energy is 2nd cheapest - by not taking into any account the unsolved problem of storage of used nuclear fuel (in case of Plutonium for some hundreds of thousands of years) and not counting the damage (done already in Chernobyl and Fukushima) when released to the environment and all the other costs of nuclear energy after closing.

Dig a deep hole and dump the mess as done for "intermediate" waste storage is no solution. The former GDR nuclear dump at Asse salt mine has been found to be leaking and needs to be dug out again - costs like these not included in your outdated study - guess who 'll pay.

Closing a nuclear power plant does not work like turning a switch and it's done (that's what blew Chernobyl up). It takes a few years while the reactor cooling etc need to be fully maintained, during that period a nuclear power plant consumes energy (with some power plants more than ever produced) - not taken into account.

Of course you can ignore all those costs and leave it to your offspring to pay them. Be assured: they 'll have to pay a lot.



CO2 emission in Germany is still too high because of long term contracts of use of the only native resource - lignite coal - which is the dirtiest available. There are discussions about how many of these pits and powerplants will be closed by the coming government within the next four years, ranging from 10 to 20 of 100+. I hope the four dirtiest which are the worst polluters in Europe indeed will be the first ones.



(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 4:59:16 AM   
Edwird


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There is nothing "outdated" from the nuclear industry.

They keep the fallacy and charlatanism up to date.

The omission of heavy government subsidy and tax credits and cost of decommissioning has always been a constant of those publications.

Just like the cost of 100,000+ deaths and billions in subsidy and billions of expense for "national defense" and increase in terrorism everywhere is left out of the oil publications (or any US newspapers.)

When I read about the initiative in Germany, which Merkel halted and then re-started, I was interested to read about the floor heating as part of the plan. Is that being done?



< Message edited by Edwird -- 11/15/2017 5:07:57 AM >

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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 5:21:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Sometimes, activism has consequences.

Can't have that! Back to the plantations, I say!
So, what's all this about, anyway? Something from a nuke promotional scribe? How unbiased can we get, here?
Let's have a look;
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/EE-Anti-nuclear-Germany-is-Europes-biggest-GHG-emitter-13111701.html
"Germany is "by far the largest emitter" - accounting for 18.3% of the total greenhouse gas emissions of the European Union, the European Free Trade Association and Turkey"
Well, how about that.
Anyway, according to this; Greenhouse gas emissions per capita, the US ranks #14, Russia #23, and Germany #33 in per capita GHG.
So then consider that Germany easily doubles total exports of Japan (#35 in GHG) with only 79% of their population.
Maybe if everybody would just quit buying all these superior goods from Deutschland, their GHG number might go down a bit.
But it's just so American to tell everybody else how to run their own business, 'freedom lovers' that we are.


What do non-European countries have to do with any of this?

I pointed out that Germany has the largest (by about 30% higher than the second highest) GDP of all European countries, so it shouldn't be any surprise that they also have the largest output of GHG.


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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 5:34:50 AM   
Edwird


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It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 5:44:57 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.


Not surprisingly enough, non-Europeans are allowed to talk about Europeans, European countries, and European topics.

quote:

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.


Was the OP written to you? I didn't see anything in it specifying you. Or, are only you allowed to post replies to posts that aren't specifically to you?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
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(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:09:26 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.

Not surprisingly enough, non-Europeans are allowed to talk about Europeans, European countries, and European topics.


But wait . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What do non-European countries have to do with any of this?

So then . . .
quote:

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.

quote:

Was the OP written to you? I didn't see anything in it specifying you. Or, are only you allowed to post replies to posts that aren't specifically to you?


My last post was in response to a flaming idiot, that's for certain.



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:11:04 AM   
heavyblinker


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You know the expression 'big fish in a small pond'?
That's why it's relevant.

The real question isn't whether or not Germany has the highest emissions in Europe, but whether or not the emissions levels of Europe's biggest emitter are unacceptably high.
So Edwird has a point... emissions levels in Germany are still low on a global level.
Not that a bigger problem cancels out a smaller problem, but it goes without saying that if the US was at Germany's level (per capita), the problem wouldn't be as bad.

OP is probably hinting at librul hypocrisy here (RWNJs tend to lump anti-nuclear in with anti-CO2 under the banner of 'environmentalism', which is no longer a right wing thing AT ALL), saying that all of this anti-nuke activism is responsible for raising Germany's emissions.
I haven't read the link, but to prove his point he would have to prove that emissions are higher BECAUSE nuclear hasn't been widely adopted.
Thinking a site called 'world-nuclear-news' is going to be above making manipulative statements is a mistake.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:13:17 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.

Not surprisingly enough, non-Europeans are allowed to talk about Europeans, European countries, and European topics.

But wait . . .
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What do non-European countries have to do with any of this?

quote:

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.

quote:

Was the OP written to you? I didn't see anything in it specifying you. Or, are only you allowed to post replies to posts that aren't specifically to you?

My last post was in response to a flaming idiot, that's for certain.


Can't answer questions? Or, are personal insults the only responses you're willing to make to the questions posed?


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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:13:34 AM   
jlf1961


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I always wondered about the claim that nuclear energy as being the second cheapest and least environmentally impacting....

I mean, the storage of the spent fuel rods costs money and they have to be stored safely for a few thousand years, the water used in the reactors to cool them is itself contaminated with radioactive particles, and thus cannot be safely stored anywhere except a specialized facility, and if either of those two waste products leaks and gets into the ground water, well.....

And as of now, the only viable long term storage facility is full and the Yucca mountain storage facility is dead without even being finished, so....

And of course, nuclear plants are perfectly safe, please disregard Three Mile Island, Chernobyl or the Japanese Nuclear plant devastated by earthquake and tsunami....

Idaho Falls, November 1955
Simi Valley, July 1959
Idaho Falls (again) 1961
Charlestown Rhode Island, 1964
Monroe, Michigan 1966
Cordova Illinois 1971
Covert Township 1973
Athens Alabama 1975
Brownville Nebraska 1975
Waterford Connecticut 1977
Surry Virginia 1979
San Clemente, California 1980

And at least 20 more 'incidents' in the US alone that were considered 'severe,' which if not directly impacting the core, could have led to catastrophic failure.

Yup, nuclear power is safe, clean and perfectly harmless.



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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:32:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
You know the expression 'big fish in a small pond'?
That's why it's relevant.
The real question isn't whether or not Germany has the highest emissions in Europe, but whether or not the emissions levels of Europe's biggest emitter are unacceptably high.
So Edwird has a point... emissions levels in Germany are still low on a global level.
Not that a bigger problem cancels out a smaller problem, but it goes without saying that if the US was at Germany's level (per capita), the problem wouldn't be as bad.
OP is probably hinting at librul hypocrisy here (RWNJs tend to lump anti-nuclear in with anti-CO2 under the banner of 'environmentalism', which is no longer a right wing thing AT ALL), saying that all of this anti-nuke activism is responsible for raising Germany's emissions.
I haven't read the link, but to prove his point he would have to prove that emissions are higher BECAUSE nuclear hasn't been widely adopted.
Thinking a site called 'world-nuclear-news' is going to be above making manipulative statements is a mistake.


It's not relevant at all. The article was about European countries. It's been pointed out that it should be expected for Germany to have the highest GHG emissions, as it has the highest GDP among the countries covered in the article.

If you look at these two graphs (just giving links because they are larger than I like seeing in threads and I couldn't find smaller graphs that included 2016), it should be illuminating as to how much this article is, essentially, meaningless.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/lightbox_image/public/images/factsheet/economic-growth-powerandenergy-consumption-ghg-emissions1.png

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/lightbox_image/public/images/factsheet/fig2-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2016-new.png

As shown, energy production isn't dropping, though the share of energy produced via renewables is increasing fairly quickly. Lignite coal, coal and nuke power shares are dropping, but nat gas has increased. One graph also shows that the general shape of ups and downs in GHG emissions follows the Primary Energy usage line while still having an overall downward trend.

And, yes, the source in the OP's link would use this as propaganda, unsurprisingly.

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:35:21 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.

Not surprisingly enough, non-Europeans are allowed to talk about Europeans, European countries, and European topics.

But wait . . .
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What do non-European countries have to do with any of this?

quote:

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.

quote:

Was the OP written to you? I didn't see anything in it specifying you. Or, are only you allowed to post replies to posts that aren't specifically to you?

My last post was in response to a flaming idiot, that's for certain.


Can't answer questions? Or, are personal insults the only responses you're willing to make to the questions posed?


I and at least 20 others have answered at least 90% of your unfathomably idiotic questions, including here recently.

That you take the answers as insult in the first place, then whine about being told to just shut up and pay attention explains how you got this way.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:38:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
It has something to do with non-European countries because the OP is a non-European spouting off at the mouth about a European country.

Not surprisingly enough, non-Europeans are allowed to talk about Europeans, European countries, and European topics.

But wait . . .
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What do non-European countries have to do with any of this?

quote:

Learn to read who the post was in response to, while at it.

quote:

Was the OP written to you? I didn't see anything in it specifying you. Or, are only you allowed to post replies to posts that aren't specifically to you?

My last post was in response to a flaming idiot, that's for certain.

Can't answer questions? Or, are personal insults the only responses you're willing to make to the questions posed?

I and at least 20 others have answered at least 90% of your unfathomably idiotic questions, including here recently.


Have to move those goalposts, eh? Way to deflect and still not answer the questions posed.

quote:

That you take the answers as insult explains how you got this way.


I don't take answers as insults. But, when you refer to me as a "flaming idiot," I do take that as a personal insult.

_____________________________

What I support:

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(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 6:42:57 AM   
Edwird


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Tell us what question you asked that hasn't been answered, in this post. Let's start with that.

Right now.




(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 7:17:20 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Can't answer questions?


You say that in almost every post of yours.

That's your schtick, isn't it?

"You can't answer my question!"

What is your question?

"You can't answer my question! Ha Ha!"

Fine, ask the question again.

"You can't answer my question! Ha Ha!"

Rinse, repeat . . .


It's obvious you can't understand the answer when given. Not just by me, but by anybody.



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: 'Anti-nuclear' Germany is Europe's biggest GHG emitter - 11/15/2017 7:51:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Can't answer questions?

You say that in almost every post of yours.
That's your schtick, isn't it? Nope.
"You can't answer my question!"
What is your question? See above (Posts #10, 13, 17 so you don't get lost).
"You can't answer my question! Ha Ha!"
Fine, ask the question again.
"You can't answer my question! Ha Ha!"
Rinse, repeat . . .
It's obvious you can't understand the answer when given. Not just by me, but by anybody.





_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
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  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 20
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