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And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 6:12:36 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

Gun-control rivals team up on bill to fix background-check database

Senators usually on opposite sides of the gun-control debate are teaming up on bipartisan legislation to improve the national background-check system by increasing how often states and federal agencies report offenses that would legally prohibit individuals from buying a firearm.

Sens. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) and John Cornyn (R-Tex.) are the main forces behind the legislation, which Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) also played a role in crafting. The trio is expecting to pull more Republican support for their measure before formally releasing it.

Their bill is narrow in its focus, reiterating and reinforcing the requirement that federal agencies report all infractions to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and creating financial incentives for states to do so as well.

......

The problem isn’t confined to the military: The NICS database is missing millions of such records, according to an estimate by the National Rifle Association, citing a 2013 report from the National Consortium for Justice Information and Statistics that found “at least 25% of felony convictions . . . are not available.”
There goes the argument that the NRA wants zero changes in gun laws
“What our bill does is it attempts to fix that both at the federal level and provide additional incentives to the local states,” Cornyn said Wednesday. “It may be as simple as just getting them to do what they’re already required to do.”

Federal agencies are required to report various felonies, indictments and other crimes — including domestic assaults — into the federal database, but Congress has no power to compel states to do the same. The Murphy-Cornyn legislation would offer direct financial incentives, as well as favorable future access to other federal assistance programs, to states that report infractions into the system.


Here is an inaccuracy, as I stated before there are actually four crime databases operated by the Department of Justice.

There is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System that is used by gun retailers and is not mandatory.

There is the National Crime Information Center Database which is mandatory for all states and jurisdictions to participate in, which is not linked to the above database used by gun retailers for back ground checks which begs the question, why the fuck not?

This database includes warrants, protective orders, arrest records, etc. which is updated every time a court clerk enters any data in the court record systems, and includes everything from physical descriptions to finger prints.

Then there is the Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification system, which is used for security, DoT back ground checks, and police departments for checking fingerprints at a crime scene, which is cross linked to the National Crime Information Center Database.

Finally, there is the National Crime Information Center, another mandatory participation database that has data provided by the FBI, federal, state, local and foreign criminal justice agencies, and authorized courts.

Okay, so we have four databases, three of which talk and play nice with each other, used primarily by police agencies and those running back ground checks for high sensitivity jobs and Commercial Driver's Licenses (if you need to know why this is done, figure trucks carry everything from hazardous waste to military ordinance, do you want a person with protective orders and convictions for violent crimes hauling military grade explosives?)

And the fourth which seems to be the red headed bastard step child in the mix, which is supposed to keep prohibited persons from buying guns.

Now, considering that each of these databases is stored on a large computer somewhere, using a server to allow outside access, which means you have to pay people to maintain said electronic equipment 24/7, and have to pay the cost of electricity to keep these things running....

Why the hell is it necessary to keep 4 independent databases in the first place?

And three of them predate the Instant Background system.

Would it not make sense to combine them all into one database?

While I applaud the effort, I dont think it goes far enough, and to pay states to input information already required by the other three makes no sense at all to me.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 6:44:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:


Their bill is narrow in its focus, reiterating and reinforcing the requirement that federal agencies report all infractions to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and creating financial incentives for states to do so as well.
......

“What our bill does is it attempts to fix that both at the federal level and provide additional incentives to the local states,” Cornyn said Wednesday. “It may be as simple as just getting them to do what they’re already required to do.”

Federal agencies are required to report various felonies, indictments and other crimes — including domestic assaults — into the federal database, but Congress has no power to compel states to do the same. The Murphy-Cornyn legislation would offer direct financial incentives, as well as favorable future access to other federal assistance programs, to states that report infractions into the system.


While I applaud the effort, I dont think it goes far enough, and to pay states to input information already required by the other three makes no sense at all to me.


I have a problem with the Federal Government offering financial incentives to States on top of what the States are already getting. I have a hard time believing the Federal Government can't leverage some part of current funding to get States to participate.
Someone isn't digging deep enough, imo. The SCOTUS has ruled that the Feds can't take money away from States that was offered for 'current' MedicAid programs if the State didn't take more money to expand MedicAid in the State (so long as it was complying with the previous MedicAid program). But there has to be some money devoted to the NICS, et. al., database usage and upkeep already going to the States. If the States aren't keeping up their end of that money, it should be taken away until such time as the State is complying.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 9:33:02 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:


Their bill is narrow in its focus, reiterating and reinforcing the requirement that federal agencies report all infractions to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and creating financial incentives for states to do so as well.
......

“What our bill does is it attempts to fix that both at the federal level and provide additional incentives to the local states,” Cornyn said Wednesday. “It may be as simple as just getting them to do what they’re already required to do.”

Federal agencies are required to report various felonies, indictments and other crimes — including domestic assaults — into the federal database, but Congress has no power to compel states to do the same. The Murphy-Cornyn legislation would offer direct financial incentives, as well as favorable future access to other federal assistance programs, to states that report infractions into the system.


While I applaud the effort, I dont think it goes far enough, and to pay states to input information already required by the other three makes no sense at all to me.


I have a problem with the Federal Government offering financial incentives to States on top of what the States are already getting. I have a hard time believing the Federal Government can't leverage some part of current funding to get States to participate.
Someone isn't digging deep enough, imo. The SCOTUS has ruled that the Feds can't take money away from States that was offered for 'current' MedicAid programs if the State didn't take more money to expand MedicAid in the State (so long as it was complying with the previous MedicAid program). But there has to be some money devoted to the NICS, et. al., database usage and upkeep already going to the States. If the States aren't keeping up their end of that money, it should be taken away until such time as the State is complying.

Maybe he's suggesting fines if they don't, rather than bribes if they do?
It'd be simpler to collate all the databases into one (there's going to be a massive degree of redundancy besides the few people who are on one but not the others and are likely those they need to be keeping an eye on) and palm it off to some government agency that can make it available to all the gun vendors, and take action against those who ignore it. The BATF spring to my mind, but I'm sure natives can think of more appropriate alternatives.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 10:05:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Maybe he's suggesting fines if they don't, rather than bribes if they do?
It'd be simpler to collate all the databases into one (there's going to be a massive degree of redundancy besides the few people who are on one but not the others and are likely those they need to be keeping an eye on) and palm it off to some government agency that can make it available to all the gun vendors, and take action against those who ignore it. The BATF spring to my mind, but I'm sure natives can think of more appropriate alternatives.


From how I read the OP, it seems like they are offering more money, rather than threatening fines.

I'm good with the BATF handling the database and combining the several into one.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to WhoreMods)
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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 10:49:33 AM   
jlf1961


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Well the BATF is one agency under Department of Justice.

However it is the FBI that is tasked with taking all the data from all the various jurisdictions and putting it into the annual crime statistics report, then publishing said report to show current trends in crime in the US.

And of course, they get that from the main crime database that everyone has to participate in.

But, as I said in my opening post, you have four databases, which I assume is maintained in four separate facilities with independent servers to access those databases, etc.

I say assume, because of the simple fact that all four databases have different physical addresses in various DC suburbs.

And yes, these congressmen are talking of actually giving the states more money in order to get them to participate in the back ground check system. Which again makes absolutely no sense, since after a court order, verdict or any action involving the state court system is input by the clerks office, it would only take a simple mouse button click to submit it to the database for gun purchase background checks.

Now, someone, I am sure is going to quickly (I am actually surprised that it hasn't happened yet) is going to say that is all well and good for criminal acts, but does nothing for those who fall under the mentally incompetent provision of those prohibited from purchase.

But actually it would, since the main database, the one used by police when they run a back ground check for outstanding warrants etc, has all state superior court decisions in its database, and competency hearings are handled by state superior courts.

And, as I stated, this is a good start, and I personally believe it should have been done when the law was passed to keep gun retailers from being sued when they sold a gun to someone who, legally could not buy one, based on a flawed back ground check result.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 6:45:23 PM   
MercTech


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NICS goes through the FBI database. The ATF has access but their bailiwick is in licensing not criminal prosecution.

The big questions to be answered are:
A> Why are updates to the NICS database not being done in a timely manner?

B> Why aren't failed firearm applications being prosecuted or at least investigated?

If anyone in the forum has a FFL I'd be curious to know what happens if a NICS check is rejected. Are any law enforcement personnel informed?

I agree with the NRA that extra laws serve no purpose until the system for background checks and updates to the database are repaired. The laws are already in place but the implementation isn't being done.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/16/2017 7:42:57 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

NICS goes through the FBI database. The ATF has access but their bailiwick is in licensing not criminal prosecution.

The big questions to be answered are:
A> Why are updates to the NICS database not being done in a timely manner?

B> Why aren't failed firearm applications being prosecuted or at least investigated?

If anyone in the forum has a FFL I'd be curious to know what happens if a NICS check is rejected. Are any law enforcement personnel informed?

I agree with the NRA that extra laws serve no purpose until the system for background checks and updates to the database are repaired. The laws are already in place but the implementation isn't being done.

Much as I hate to defend the government on this the vast majority of the rejections turn out to be false negatives.
That said though there is little to no effort made to prosecute those who are correct rejections.
NICS is used more as a harassment tool than a crime stopper.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 5:07:50 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

NICS goes through the FBI database. The ATF has access but their bailiwick is in licensing not criminal prosecution.

Possibly a Turner Diaries enthusiast who's stockpiling guns for the coming race war would be a bit more intimidated by the federal agency that wiped out the Branch Davidians than the FBI?

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 1:01:23 PM   
jlf1961


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Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

NICS goes through the FBI database. The ATF has access but their bailiwick is in licensing not criminal prosecution.

The big questions to be answered are:
A> Why are updates to the NICS database not being done in a timely manner?

B> Why aren't failed firearm applications being prosecuted or at least investigated?

If anyone in the forum has a FFL I'd be curious to know what happens if a NICS check is rejected. Are any law enforcement personnel informed?

I agree with the NRA that extra laws serve no purpose until the system for background checks and updates to the database are repaired. The laws are already in place but the implementation isn't being done.



No, the NICS does NOT use any of the other three Department of Justice databases, if it did, almost half of the recent mass shooters would not have been able to buy guns in the first place.

It is a seperate database mandated under the Brady Bill and went online in 1998.

And since it is independent, a check by the NRA has proven that at least 25% of all felony convictions since 1998 fail to appear on the database due to the simple fact they are not submitted by the states.

The National Crime Information Center database is mandatory for all jurisdictions, and this is the system used routinely by law enforcement agencies when running an ID, which also has information from international sources.

the fact that the National Instant Background check data base is flawed and does not catch all people trying to buy a gun that is prohibited under the federal laws is the EXACT reason that the Fair Commerce Firearms Act was passed, which makes it illegal to sue a gun retailer for selling a gun to a prohibited person after getting a clean back ground check (that should have come back denied.)

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 2:57:45 PM   
MercTech


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I was referring to the fact that the FBI administers the background check database. If the FBis various databases do not share data, that is an IT problem. (as if the Fed didn't have a ton of IT issues)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 4:22:04 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I was referring to the fact that the FBI administers the background check database. If the FBis various databases do not share data, that is an IT problem. (as if the Fed didn't have a ton of IT issues)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System



Actually, the instant back ground check database was designed so that local authorities could input the data directly, but were not mandated to do so, unlike the National Criminal Information database.

The bill was also written so that the database was to be independent from other databases, allegedly to prevent abuse of the system. How you can abuse a system that is meant to keep prohibited people from buying guns is something that I am still trying to wrap my head around.

Then, a few years later, a bill cosponsored by Repubs and Dems was passed and signed into law to prevent survivors or victims from filing lawsuits against gun retailers who sold guns based on an inaccurate result from the back ground check system, acknowledging the fact that the back ground check system was flawed since it was voluntary at state and local levels.

Now interesting enough, many of the Dems that supported and voted for that second bill, have also supported the various weapons bans that have been proposed, spoken out about the flaws in the back ground check system, AND have yet to try and fix the problem, choosing instead to propose another weapons ban, to keep weapons such has have been used in the last mass shootings out of the hands of the people that are not supposed to have ANY firearms at all.

Now the latest effort to fix this is a bill that proposes paying state and local jurisdictions to actually use the national back ground check system by submitting information that would prohibit people from buying guns that are not allowed to buy guns.

Now, as I see it, four databases in four locations means that the government is paying four different teams of techs to maintain them, paying for electricity at four locations to operate the damn things and probably have more expenses for each facility.

And now, they (congress) wants to pay states and local jurisdictions to do what should be mandatory in the first god damn place since mandatory participation in the other databases IS mandatory?

Oh, the back ground check only tallies the number of approved and disapproved sales, but not WHO was disapproved or why. Basically it has a yes or no hit counter.

So, it is the electronic government version of a facebook user.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 6:39:27 PM   
MercTech


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Entering data into NICS as that database cannot pull from other databases would be an unfunded mandate for state and local jurisdictions.
If the database was set up to query other databases but not allow information going the other way; it would meet the separability requirement of the enabling legislation. The separability in the original legislation was to prevent a person from being able to query a criminal database and get back that a person had applied for a firearm purchase.

But, that would require bureaucrats to understand a modicum of how computers work which ain't gonna happen until competence means more than charisma in an election.

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RE: And the pro gun crowd want nothing done??? - 11/17/2017 8:06:50 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Entering data into NICS as that database cannot pull from other databases would be an unfunded mandate for state and local jurisdictions.
If the database was set up to query other databases but not allow information going the other way; it would meet the separability requirement of the enabling legislation. The separability in the original legislation was to prevent a person from being able to query a criminal database and get back that a person had applied for a firearm purchase.

But, that would require bureaucrats to understand a modicum of how computers work which ain't gonna happen until competence means more than charisma in an election.



No, it would require first that members of congress would actually use their brains for something other than a spacer to keep their ears apart.

Hell, every current court reporting and record keeping software suite has the pop up to submit information to the back ground check database. It can be ignored or disabled at the whim of the clerk of court.

Why not have software makers do an update to the software that makes it automatic when the data is saved for the court records?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 13
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