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DesideriScuri -> RE: An American dialogue (12/12/2017 6:29:12 PM)
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ORIGINAL: JVoV
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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
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ORIGINAL: JVoV
The Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Association arguments should be equally dismissed. Public businesses must treat all customers equally. So the choice for them is all or nothing. Don't sell wedding cakes at all if you can't bake them for people of a protected class. Don't professionally photograph weddings at all, if you aren't available for people of all religions, races, and sexual orientations. Don't provide any sort of service for anyone that you cannot, in good faith, do for every customer that comes along.
This argument is interesting, especially in light of:
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There are two aspects of the baker's job. One is simply to make generic pastries. The other is to custom decorate cakes.
https://youtu.be/SFuDukk_A30
Skip to 6:17 for this guy's opinion on the matter (it's a <2 minute segment that makes an awful lot of sense to me). His argument is that it isn't really a religious liberty issue. He thinks it comes down to "public accommodation" vs. "contracted work for hire." The public accommodation part is the walk-in business. The contracted work for hire is the cake decorating, and he should have the right to decide to accept the work or not.
I work on guitars, on the side, for friends. I wouldn't call it a "business", but word gets around ...
I work on maybe ten guitars a month, mostly, it's simple things, but I just had a guy contact me, wanting me to do some custom work on a guitar. He wants me to strip it, sand it, paint it and re-finish it.
In light of the second quote I re-posted, I started thinking: What if this guy had asked me to paint "Satan is Lord" on his guitar? I'll do his set up, adjust his Floyd Rose, do all the customizing work, but I'm not painting that.
I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but it isn't that far removed from a cake decorator who believes homosexuality is a sin, putting two little men cake toppers on top of a cake. It's that decorator saying/being forced to say: "Same-sex marriage is okay/acceptable/not a sin"
So, neither one of us should be allowed to earn a little extra cash? That seems like a rather extreme punishment for not spouting the party line.
I wonder ... if a Christian couple came to a gay cake decorator and wanted a Leviticus quote (you know which one) put on their cake, should the decorator be forced to do it?
I wouldn't want him forced to do it. I can imagine how hurtful/stressful it would be, asking that decorator to do something that makes their entire inner being scream out in disdain.
I guess that's the difference; one side wants to force their way of life on people with whom they disagree. The other side just wants to not be forced to listen to their inner being scream out in disdain.
In a lot of ways, I agree with you. Especially when it concerns forcing businesses to stock items that go against their beliefs, such as a cake topper in this case or ham for a Kosher deli. That's not who we are as a country, nor who we want to be.
And as you say, there may be artistic elements that in and of themselves go against the cake decorator's beliefs, which can be outright rejected.
But these are all things that can be discussed and negotiated. A couple usually does have ideas about what their cake should look like, and the decorator can then bring them back to reality with what they're willing and able to do.
And that's exactly what did not happen in this case. The couple was just flat out refused service, because of who they are.
Not necessarily true. The baker's side was that he wasn't willing to custom decorate a cake for a gay wedding. If that was his initial position that he isn't willing to budge from (it was, and he wasn't), then where can negotiations go from there?
This guy also doesn't custom decorate celebratory cakes for Halloween or Divorce.
It wasn't that they are homosexuals, exactly. If they had come into his shop and asked for him to custom decorate a cake for a birthday, would he have done it? I'm betting he would have. In the video linked in Michael's post (thanks, Michael for including it), it's pointed out that the baker has no problems selling his basic goods to whomever pays him for them, but the "contract work" (custom decorating) doesn't fall under the idea of "public accommodation."
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