DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
As for the part I put in bold: not everyone (especially JVoV) recognizes a difference between something "off the shelf" vs. custom ordering. And, in my mind, that difference is huge and the part that matters in this case. The "public accommodation" - in my opinion - should not extend to custom decorated goods. Custom decorated goods are not available to everyone at any time. They are special orders and are very different from "off the shelf" goods.
Ha! I don't even know if *I* understand. That's part of the question too, isn't it? One of many, really.
Is the case about religious freedom?
Is it about "art"?
Is it about equal treatment, rather than discrimination?
Is it about public accommodation?
All of these different aspects make the case interesting to talk about
It's about all of those things.
Obviously, it's about religious freedom, as it's a religious belief as the underlying reason Mr Phillips turned down a request to customize a cake.
Art? Sure is. If you use the very basic definition that if you get paid for doing something, you're a professional at it. In this definition, Mr Phillips is a professional artist, a professional cake decorator.
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The answer is simple, and timeless: a free society is based on the principle that each and every individual has the right to decide what art or entertainment he or she wants -- or does not want -- to receive or create. Once you allow the government to censor someone else, you cede to it the the power to censor you, or something you like. Censorship is like poison gas: a powerful weapon that can harm you when the wind shifts.
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The First Amendment is based upon the belief that in a free and democratic society, individual adults must be free to decide for themselves what to read, write, paint, draw, see and hear. If we are disturbed by images of violence or sex, we can change the channel, turn off the TV, and decline to go to certain movies or museum exhibits.
We can also exercise our own free speech rights by voicing our objections to forms of expression that we don't like. Justice Louis Brandeis' advice that the remedy for messages we disagree with or dislike in art, entertainment or politics is "more speech, not enforced silence," is as true today as it was when given in 1927.
Granted, this was more about government censoring someone, but the opposite also rings true. Government can't force an artist to create art that he/she doesn't want to create.
Here's who said that: SOURCE
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I don't think they can discriminate that way and not run afoul of the public accommodation laws. The rooms are there and for rent. I think a hotel's rooms would be more analogous to "off the shelf" goods, and not custom created special orders.
I'm looking for a good analogy that would reflect more of a 'it's available to you, but not to YOU' situation. It wouldn't be hard to look at even recent history regarding race but I don't want to go for the easy answer.
I understand, and good luck. 
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I'm sure there are people who will buy their pets cakes and stuff like that, and I'm sure there are people who choose to spend their money buying a custom decorated cake. I don't have that kind of money to spend on a custom decorated cake for a dog and wouldn't choose to do so even if I did. But, some people.....
Someday, we'll have to have a talk about why I dislike shows such as "Keeping Up With the Kardashians" so much. 
Quite likely another area of agreement between us.
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I can agree with you on that point. I guess it might depend on when sales started to drop. If they didn't drop until after he stopped custom decorating wedding cakes, it would make a stronger case for the sales losses to be because of that.
I've refrained in prior posts discussing just how much I would be interested in having that kind of data. Yes, it almost sounds like an invasion of privacy regarding the customers of the shop who are one time customers, return customers, customers who wouldn't use the shop because of the case, or the case made them want to be customers of the bakery, but I would LOVE to know that kind of information. What little bit of inner geek that I have could have a blast with quarterly reports, customer feedback, and opinion polls.
LMAO!! You go!! I wonder if Masterpiece Cakeshop's regular (I don't recall the timeframe) reporting to the Colorado CRC will end up being open to public view. Or, if records are brought about in the SCOTUS case, if that'll end up being part of the public domain.
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I didn't participate in either the water only nor in dining there on that specific day. Back then, there was only one CFA that I knew the location of in my area, and it was 20 minutes away. I had better things to do than to protest/counterprotest. I now have one 5 minutes away, and another 10 minutes away (plus there are more in the area than back then). I had only been to a CFA once before 2012, and that was early 90's (it was inside a shopping mall, but has been gone for quite some time).
Well, keep in mind, I lived in middle of nowhere Alaska at the time. It's not quite as altruistic as it sounds.
How did you deal with the fucking cold?!?!? This current arctic bullshit we're going through is horrible. I don't want to do anything but work, discuss on here, and curl up under the covers. I have a cousin that lives in Erie, PA. They've gotten 101.5" of snow already, including one storm where they got 50" in 48 hours. Erie is in a shitty location if you don't like snow, as it's on the Eastern edge of Lake Erie. But, unlike Buffalo, it's sorta south of the Lake, so "lake effect snow" isn't quite as bad as places like Buffalo, but, damn! He supplements his income by plowing, so he's over his head in work, literally.
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You think much further than most people do, I must say. The "water only" protest would be a big pain in the ass for the workers, and one day of sales isn't really going to hurt the owners. It might put a pinch on that franchisee, but it's not going to hurt Dan Cathy.
Precisely.
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What really tickles me, though, are the "gas holidays" where you're supposed to not buy gas on a specific day, from any station. The morons think that's going to kill Exxon, BP, etc. What that does is change one day's worth of sales, and those sales still end up happening; just not on that one day. I laugh - hard - at people who push that stuff.
We agree again.
Buying gas on Wednesday or waiting until Friday to "make a statement" that we're not buying it on Thursday isn't really much of a thing. I don't see it the same as people choosing not to patronize any particular business.
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I've never spent on a cake anywhere near what was spent on my wedding cake. But, I'm not a cake guy; I much prefer pie. I can recognize the beauty and artistry that goes into most wedding cakes (and some other cakes), but I truly don't give a shit. It's cake. I think I watched one episode of Cake Boss (or whatever the cake show was with Duff). He made a really cool 4th of July cake that looked like a cannon, and it even shot fireworks. Neat, but unnecessary, in m opinion.
Unfortunately, I can't say I'm entirely with you here. 
I'm shallow enough that if I'm hosting something, I want the food to look good, especially the desert. Not my area and certainly not at the level of Mr. Phillips.
I will sacrifice the looks of the food for taste, flavor, and overall satisfaction. My Dad makes gnocchi and each one is almost exactly the same as the next, and is mouthwateringly amazing. When I make gnocchi, they are not the same size, shape, or weight. Some will look exactly like his, but the next one will be lumpy as shit. But, my gnocchi taste exactly like his, so I'm perfectly okay with how they look. 
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I knew it wasn't going to live up to the standards of a professional, but that didn't matter. It was a cake for my wife of 5 years, our two year old son, and me.
Fuck fondant. 
p.s. The buttercream designs I made didn't really even resemble the basic designs I was aiming for. My un-extravangant eyes were still quite far beyond my talent level.
Oddly enough, the cake that was made for the wedding reception that MP and I had, was made by a friend. Anybody who's been in my home in the last fifteen years has seen a picture of it hanging on the wall. Could I have made it? No.
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I've taken a Wilton class, but I don't have the patience to put the time and effort into it to make it look good. The instructor had been decorating cakes (including wedding cakes) for over a decade, so she's had a ton of experience. Plus, I wouldn't doubt for a moment she had creative artistic talent with her hands for drawing, etc. I give a damn good massage, but that might transfer to kneading bread dough more than decorating a cake (or damn near anything else).
It's not in my skill set. I don't consider myself that artistic at all, which is probably why I have a certain appreciation for those who are talented in such a way.
I can appreciate art in most forms. But, if I have any talent in an area, I can appreciate so much more those that are more talented than I, in that same, or similar area. I played trombone through high school. I was pretty darn good. Back then, I also played in my church's service band. The church was eventually blessed with a trombone player who had retired from playing professionally in a symphony. THAT GUY was amazing on the t-bone. Throw on some good jazz, big band music, marches, etc., and I can definitely enjoy and appreciate musical artists.
Unless it's country music or rap. Fuck country music and rap.
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What I support:
- A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
- Personal Responsibility
- Help for the truly needy
- Limited Government
- Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
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RE: An American dialogue - 
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