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RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 10:02:40 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It does change her situation...she at least has a chance of survival with the Healthcare act...and can you not understand... she WILL die without it.. How valuable is life to you... is money the only consideration? How about this... we get rid of the mandate... but then provide healthcare to those that cannot afford it and charge the rest of us what ever it takes? It is disgraceful that the US is one of the only industrialized nations without a national healthcare program... Our life expectancy is decreasing for the first time in history..
OK would you please point me to a charity that is willing to take over her medical bills.
Butch


I'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare, we're all going to die. Period. It's one of the few guarantees in life.

No one has any right to money they didn't earn unless it's freely given by those that earned it. That's what I believe. There is a cost for government. That's why we pay taxes. We have government to safeguard our inalienable human rights. Yes, one of those rights is the right to life. If she dies without getting healthcare, that does not mean she died because of the lack of healthcare. If she gets healthcare and her life is extended, will her having gotten healthcare have been the cause of her dying? Of course not. If her cancer overtakes her ability to withstand it, it's the cancer, that is taking her life. If someone at the hospital gives her the wrong medication and she dies from it, it's not "healthcare" that caused her death, but the medication itself (assuming the lethal medication was not given intentionally to kill).

Emotional, impassioned pleas make for compelling and persuasive arguments, but emotions tend to not get the best results. I'm sorry your friend is going through what she's going through, but it's not going to change my beliefs regarding the role of government.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 10:05:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
No, you dope, you will get to keep more of the money you earned to do what you want with it.

Look, use your imagination and think. The rationale is that with more of my money it will to spur the economy. More in my paycheck.
Well more in your paycheck from your employer, will...do the same thing and is and private, not the govt. borrowing to do it.


Are you fucking kidding me? This is why you're views are soo fucking myopic. More money from the employer might mean more money in your pocket, but you completely ignore anything the employer could do with that money. You can't just look at one impact and assume nothing changes in relation to it. FFS. I always thought you were smarter than this.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 11:44:05 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare




Then why don't you give up your healthcare and give it to her?

Here is another guarantee in life...at anytime any one of us can suffer a disaster that wipes out our ability to earn income... does your Christian God say...let women and innocent children ... that you demand must be born, and the old and infirm... suffer and die because we all are going to die someday? My God says help the needy... Charities are NOT enough as any sane person can see... We need to support welfare systems as just another charity not as a burden to our pocket books. We should be making sure these systems are run efficiently and funded properly.

Are there people that abuse the system...always... but the vast majority are good responsible people that have suffered and unexpected downward turn in their ability to earn a living wage... where is your humanity... do you live by the almighty dollar? It is OUR responsibility to help those that are suffering when we can.. YOUR God demands it of you. The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government. States can do it just fine but not all states will provide the needed services.


Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 11:49:47 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare, we're all going to die. Period. It's one of the few guarantees in life.

Maybe I'm a wet liberal, but I've always thought that the whole point of healthcare is that you might die a bit (or even a lot) later with it than you would without it.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 12:42:56 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare

Then why don't you give up your healthcare and give it to her?
Here is another guarantee in life...at anytime any one of us can suffer a disaster that wipes out our ability to earn income... does your Christian God say...let women and innocent children ... that you demand must be born, and the old and infirm... suffer and die because we all are going to die someday? My God says help the needy... Charities are NOT enough as any sane person can see... We need to support welfare systems as just another charity not as a burden to our pocket books. We should be making sure these systems are run efficiently and funded properly.


You need to distance yourself when you discuss this, Butch. I work for my healthcare, and I pay a portion of my healthcare. I am earning my healthcare. I will not give it up, especially not for someone I have no connection with whatsoever.

You want to bring in what your "Christian God" says to do and mix it with government?!? Did your "Christian God" tell you to take from others to give to the poor, or did your "Christian God" say to give to the poor?

It's amazing how easy it is for some people to spend other people's money.

Charities would be enough if the cost of care was lower (guess what happened immediately before healthcare costs started rising dramatically....WWII...oh, nope... Medicare..... wonder what that implies.... (no I don't)). Get government out of this.

quote:

Are there people that abuse the system...always... but the vast majority are good responsible people that have suffered and unexpected downward turn in their ability to earn a living wage... where is your humanity... do you live by the almighty dollar? It is OUR responsibility to help those that are suffering when we can.. YOUR God demands it of you. The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government. States can do it just fine but not all states will provide the needed services.
Butch


The answer you're looking for is charity. Charity, however, is NOT government. That is where you're failing.

You do not get to decide who I help. You get to decide who you help. You do not get to decide the nature of my walk. You get to decide the nature of your walk. How do you not get this?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 12:49:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare, we're all going to die. Period. It's one of the few guarantees in life.

Maybe I'm a wet liberal, but I've always thought that the whole point of healthcare is that you might die a bit (or even a lot) later with it than you would without it.


Tis true, that, not that that's the point.

Whether you're a wet (or dry, or a mixture) liberal or not has nothing to do with it.

If everyone has a right to healthcare, then what of someone who lives in an area without a provider? Where is that right then? The people in the UK have no right to healthcare. It is a privilege. It isn't a right. Without the NHS, where is that right? Can you walk up to a physician and demand to be given healthcare anywhere, any time? If you go to a physician's house at 3am and bang on his door until he answers, can you command him to provide care to you? Of course you can't. You'd likely have the police called on you. But, because of the NHS, you can walk into a care provider while that provider is open and get in line (if there is one) for help when you need it.

It's a privilege, not a right.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 3:22:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare




Then why don't you give up your healthcare and give it to her?

Here is another guarantee in life...at anytime any one of us can suffer a disaster that wipes out our ability to earn income... does your Christian God say...let women and innocent children ... that you demand must be born, and the old and infirm... suffer and die because we all are going to die someday? My God says help the needy... Charities are NOT enough as any sane person can see... We need to support welfare systems as just another charity not as a burden to our pocket books. We should be making sure these systems are run efficiently and funded properly.

Are there people that abuse the system...always... but the vast majority are good responsible people that have suffered and unexpected downward turn in their ability to earn a living wage... where is your humanity... do you live by the almighty dollar? It is OUR responsibility to help those that are suffering when we can.. YOUR God demands it of you. The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government. States can do it just fine but not all states will provide the needed services.


Butch

Have you given up yours for her?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 3:37:56 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Butch..the lack of humanity, and compassion is understandable!!!! dontcha know.
They can decide to force women to give birth by taking away her right to privacy and health decisions, but thats it.
If you cant afford healthcare, just die quietly.


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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 3:54:03 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Tax cuts for all (allegedly) and Trumps base lap up the bullshit.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 5:32:14 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		no, that's not my main implication, resistance to trump is simply a part of the equation, none of which can be teased out and broken up into its constituent parts percentage wise.

you can not want the bill to pass, and not want it to pass all the more so because of trump.

but I get your point and to try to address that; as I mentioned in the first line, and we'll never know this---its very possible some democrats might have wanted to vote yes, but for reasons of making political hay down the road, opted to vote no. what democrat today wants to cooperate with something Donald trump is pushing so heavily with elections not too far away?

who knows that some voted no because they felt confident the bill was going to pass anyways and this gives them cover amongst their constituents.

its also possible indeed there were some fence sitters and their dislike from trump pushed them in the opposite direction. they might indeed have voted yes had it been under a different president.

regardless, what i do know is, I saw/read a number of people saying there was democratic party participation and that the bill was not sprung on them.

that does not translate into democrats wanting to vote yes on the thing as a whole and nor does it take their dislike for Donald trump out of their calculations.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 12/22/2017 5:37:06 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 5:39:27 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Our life expectancy is decreasing for the first time in history..
Butch


our life expectancy going down has to do with opioid and other drug abuse. go ahead and connect the dots between that and a lack of a nationalized healthcare.

quote:

The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government.


excuse me what?? you want to link the words "efficiently" and "the federal government" together?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 5:52:04 PM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11232
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Our life expectancy is decreasing for the first time in history..
Butch


our life expectancy going down has to do with opioid and other drug abuse. go ahead and connect the dots between that and a lack of a nationalized healthcare.



Close the border, build the wall.

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 6:03:28 PM   
MasterDrakk


Posts: 321
Status: offline 		why? so that your president the orange cockwomble can pardon the actual criminals who hire them?

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 6:16:39 PM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11232
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare




Then why don't you give up your healthcare and give it to her?

Here is another guarantee in life...at anytime any one of us can suffer a disaster that wipes out our ability to earn income... does your Christian God say...let women and innocent children ... that you demand must be born, and the old and infirm... suffer and die because we all are going to die someday? My God says help the needy... Charities are NOT enough as any sane person can see... We need to support welfare systems as just another charity not as a burden to our pocket books. We should be making sure these systems are run efficiently and funded properly.

Are there people that abuse the system...always... but the vast majority are good responsible people that have suffered and unexpected downward turn in their ability to earn a living wage... where is your humanity... do you live by the almighty dollar? It is OUR responsibility to help those that are suffering when we can.. YOUR God demands it of you. The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government. States can do it just fine but not all states will provide the needed services.


Butch


If you demand theocracy then move to Iran.

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 6:37:51 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
'm sorry to say, Butch, but she's going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. With or without healthcare




Then why don't you give up your healthcare and give it to her?

Here is another guarantee in life...at anytime any one of us can suffer a disaster that wipes out our ability to earn income... does your Christian God say...let women and innocent children ... that you demand must be born, and the old and infirm... suffer and die because we all are going to die someday? My God says help the needy... Charities are NOT enough as any sane person can see... We need to support welfare systems as just another charity not as a burden to our pocket books. We should be making sure these systems are run efficiently and funded properly.

Are there people that abuse the system...always... but the vast majority are good responsible people that have suffered and unexpected downward turn in their ability to earn a living wage... where is your humanity... do you live by the almighty dollar? It is OUR responsibility to help those that are suffering when we can.. YOUR God demands it of you. The only way to do it efficiently throughout this country is through our federal government. States can do it just fine but not all states will provide the needed services.


Butch

These two posts are a great opportunity to set the record straight and Butch is on the right track.

This IS America and we in America are here to make some fucking money. In that pursuit, we don't give a fuck about anything else like what price anybody else has to pay, who suffers from our relentless pursuit of money and then...more money, or care who it hurts, who it makes sick...who it kills.

Capitalism 101. Nobel prizes have been awarded based on this concept, so I have great support here. Look at the centuries old history of the violence of the capitalist oh and yes...the corporation starting with the Dutch East Indies corp. that enriched corrupt, empowering govt. at the direct result of death, destruction and even slavery. I.e., capitalism has no humanity except as it relates to a profit.

Our culture of individual, liberty demands that we act on this prime directive...all else be damned and your health and survival depend on you and you alone.

Humanity is mere profit center, young, old, healthy or sick...you will be a profit.

As for god whichever one you like. As far as I know and it's impossible to be a real expert on god, there are and have been so many, too many to keep track. But rest assured he's with you on this but only as long as you weekly tithe god's man on earth [me] then repent when you can say quarterly along with your quarterly P/L reports.

Fair enough ?


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 6:59:33 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		"Manchin: So, it Looks Like the Tax Bill I Voted Against Will -- Um -- Help A Lot of West Virginians"

quote:

Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., on Wednesday struggled to explain his opposition to the Republican tax overhaul, conceding in a local radio interview that it contains “some good things” that could benefit his state. “There’s some good in this bill. I acknowledge that,” Manchin said, when West Virginia radio talk show host Hoppy Kercheval asked the senator why he opposed legislation that will benefit the “vast majority” of taxpayers and businesses in the state. “The things that you mention are correct. Initially people will benefit and see some changes in their taxes,” Manchin admitted...At times, it appeared that Manchin was wrestling with his answers, trying to justify his “no” vote without being too critical, and antagonizing Trump...

Manchin said that he opposed the bill because it adds to the national debt, and because the individual rate cuts weren't permanent. These are contradictory reasons. And if he was so concerned about the "temporary" tax cuts (as it stands families will receive relief every year for almost a decade), why wouldn't Manchin have voted for the bill, adamantly insisting that he'll vote to extend the tax cuts, or make them permanent, at the earliest possible opportunity? [why indeed?] He also blamed his vote on the legislation's repeal of Obamacare's individual mandate tax, marking the latest instance in which he's defended the failing healthcare law, despite assuring West Virginia voters that he's opposed to 'the bad parts' of it.


www.comradeslovetownhall.com

anyone besides me finding the democrats in general, and the comrades in here's argument of "it raises the deficit/adds to the debt" disingenuous? as if all of a sudden, they are concerned with fiscal responsibility?

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 7:07:54 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDrakk

...so that your president the orange cockwomble...


hmm, how is that pretending to be English thing working out for you?

how does that jibe with your recent use of the word "imbecilic," which is overwhelmingly a mnottertroll word?

(in reply to MasterDrakk)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 7:23:30 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

you need to distance yourself when you discuss this, Butch. I work for my healthcare, and I pay a portion of my healthcare. I am earning my healthcare. I will not give it up, especially not for someone I have no connection with whatsoever.





She works ...she pays what she can... she does not want to take your healthcare away... why do you want to take hers? I now see we are very different. I don't have to know someone to have compassion for them... I don't have to know someone to give them aid... I am willing to give up some of my hard earned money to help the less fortunate and all I ask is my money is not wasted or used by someone that does not need it. I am very fiscally conservative and I am careful where money goes and what it buys... But I cannot think of a better use for money than to help my fellow man in need. It fills the heart... you should try it now and then.

We do not serve ourselves or God by distancing ourselves from suffering humanity.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 7:58:02 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
people will die
Butch




its increasingly difficult to take the left seriously.




You are very smug with other peoples lives... I've a deal for you... A dear friend of mine, fighting ovarian cancer, is hanging onto life through an Obamacare subsidy. If in two years she still has her insurance I will be glad to kiss your ass and vote Republican in the next presidential election. If not then I get to shove your hypocritical Christian cross up your ass sideways. How about it?

Butch


Hi Butch, I am sorry to hear about your friend.
We are all still waiting to see what healthcare "plan" will replace the affordable care act.
Does your friend qualify for medicaid?
I have no idea what other options are open for her.
I hope things work out for her.

I have always felt we should have universal health care, that is free, or at least people could pay on a sliding scale.
The sad truth is, our taxes go up and up, and the government is never going to allow us to have universal health care.
Our tax money is always spent in other ways.

The next big fight should be for free/or affordable universal health care, I just don't see that happening in America.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/22/2017 10:12:26 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
people will die
Butch




its increasingly difficult to take the left seriously.




You are very smug with other peoples lives... I've a deal for you... A dear friend of mine, fighting ovarian cancer, is hanging onto life through an Obamacare subsidy. If in two years she still has her insurance I will be glad to kiss your ass and vote Republican in the next presidential election. If not then I get to shove your hypocritical Christian cross up your ass sideways. How about it?

Butch


Hi Butch, I am sorry to hear about your friend.
We are all still waiting to see what healthcare "plan" will replace the affordable care act.
Does your friend qualify for medicaid?
I have no idea what other options are open for her.
I hope things work out for her.

I have always felt we should have universal health care, that is free, or at least people could pay on a sliding scale.
The sad truth is, our taxes go up and up, and the government is never going to allow us to have universal health care.
Our tax money is always spent in other ways.

The next big fight should be for free/or affordable universal health care, I just don't see that happening in America.

If the Gov handles the bill that doesn't make it free, it just means that healthy people pay more taxes to pay for it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 160
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