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RE: Gun control??? - 7/30/2006 9:44:29 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

This is just my opinion about gun control. It seems over the long run gun control would slowly deplete the total supply of guns in circulation and eventually reduce gun related deaths. Of course there will always be smuggling, etc... but the scale of gun use by all parties would eventually drop. So, just looking at it that way would make you think it was a good thing.

But when the government goes bad, Reference the list of countries the OP gave. It would seem the death toll and destruction rises way above the level prevented by gun control, because the threat from the population is limited. However, if one out of three people have one or more guns and everyone knows someone that would loan them a gun in worst case scenario, it would take some pretty big balls to try to enslave a whole country by direct force of arms. In the US I have no fear of a military coup for example, it wouldn't last, because you'd have to control 300 million gun toting pissed off people. But no guns, it's just a matter of time, before the wrong people get put in the right situation, and what is the populace to do? Vote? LOL, bullets don't hold political affiliations.

No, sorry, I would feel uneasy if I wasn't confident the US citizens could take out the government if necessary, without guns, you don't have that choice.


Unfortunately, while gun control might eventually lead to a decrease in the homicide rate, the initial decrease would all be on the wrong side, i.e. from criminals no longer being killed by their intended victims.  The murder rate, on the other hand, of law abiding people who can no longer protect themselves from criminals would go up sharply.

Sorry, I don't think the solution to crime is fewer guns.  In fact, I think it's more guns in the hands of non-criminals.  The fact is, the vast majority of criminals are cowards.  If a few more muggers were killed by little old ladies, there'd be a LOT fewer muggers.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/30/2006 10:14:09 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		MistressLorelei,

I cannot thank you enough for your post as it just made the little light go on in my head.

I have no problem with gun laws that are not preludes to confiscation which include
  • Waiting periods, I have 20+ guns, I don't mind waiting for another one, silly ultimately but it might prevent a suicide or two so what the heck
  • Background checks, I am all for those
  • Barring felons from owning guns - Law since 1968!

I am diametrically opposed to laws
  • Registering what guns I own - as they are ALWAYS used to confiscate guns
  • Types of guns I can own - If I REALLY wanted to kill someone I would not use an assault weapon, I would use a boring old hunting shotgun sawed off to 10" with a hacksaw
  • Magazine capacity - most police shootouts are done with less than a few rounds and most drivebys are done with the most low powered guns around

Laws nobody talks about
  • Just like DMV I would have numbers so people could call in and find out if a gun were stolen, it would kill the resale value of stolen guns
  • Reorganize ATF so they stop promoting gun crime and start working to end it.  Long story but as crazy as this sounds, it is quite true.
  • Actually prosecute gun crimes, again as crazy as this sounds, the harsh mandatory gun crime sentences are the first thing that prosecutors bargain away.
  • Pass a nationwide concealed weapon law modeled after the ones enacted in the Western states.  Law abiding citizens after suitable training are allowed to carry concealed weapons.  Even the CDC has admitted those states that have done so have seen a reduction in violent crime

The most important thing this country could do to reduce crime is to legalize drugs and end the illegal and violent drug trade.  Funnel profits from drug sales into rehabilitation and America would be a safer, more sober, and more civilized country.

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/30/2006 10:26:07 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		They would never allow that.

T

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RE: Gun control??? - 7/30/2006 11:47:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm surprised that no one has yet said something smug and half-witted like "Gun control means using both hands!"

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RE: Gun control??? - 7/30/2006 11:53:34 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I understand what you're saying, but the fact that high-powered guns aren't often used in crimes doesn't necessarily mean that they should be legal, either.  I mean, take the example of owning a nuclear weapon.  It's not likely to be used in a crime, but that doesn't mean we should allow anyone to walk around with a nuclear weapon, should we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

I am diametrically opposed to laws
  • Registering what guns I own - as they are ALWAYS used to confiscate guns
  • Types of guns I can own - If I REALLY wanted to kill someone I would not use an assault weapon, I would use a boring old hunting shotgun sawed off to 10" with a hacksaw
  • Magazine capacity - most police shootouts are done with less than a few rounds and most drivebys are done with the most low powered guns around


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/30/2006 11:54:06 PM >

(in reply to CrappyDom)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 12:26:01 AM   
MasDom


Posts: 375
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		I,d feel safe with a high powerd bow really...
 
  Give me something with tension springs and watch the fear drain from my face.
 
 
 

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 12:35:32 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I do know this: in the UK , a gun control bill was introduced  just after the first world war because the authorites feared trouble due to the social deprivation that those people who had survived the horrors of the war, were then having to endure.
Maybe there is something in this citizens with gun, subjects without, after all.

Having said that, the level of gun crime in the US appears ridiculous, to an outsider.


After each war the government tries to get the guns off the street and I do agree it is probably not just to prevent the guns falling into the hands of criminals. Conditions are almost invariably bad for returning soldiers. However, unlike the US, there is a concensus in the UK that guns on the street and in private homes is a bad thing.

If you really want to start a revolution, Kalishnikovs can still be bought by the case full in east Europe and borders are pretty leaky between EU states.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 1:47:32 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		The only form of gun control I have ever supported is unfortunately often the least employed.

Self-control.

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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 4:16:25 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My main problem with all of this 'gun stuff', is that most (not all, but the vast majority), who want to make sure their rights to own a gun without gun safety laws, are the same ones who want to make sure that I don't have the right to get an abortion, or live in a community where criminals can buy guns, or where my child won't get shot by her 5 year old friend while playing at his house.  I am all for everyone doing whatever in the hell they please... as long as what they are doing is not harming everyone else.


I'm not one of the people that believes I should be able to own guns and you can't have an abortion... I'm a strong believer in do what ever you feel you can live with, after all, your the one that has to get up each day and look yourself in the eye.
 
I also believe that guns are not what kills the little ones, it's ignorance that kills them. All of mine were raised around guns, fully loaded and easily accessed guns. When they were very young their dad took them into the desert in Nevada and shot a rabbit... he took them to the rabbit and told them... this is what a gun does, it kills and makes a real mess doing it. From then on we took them shooting quite often. They shot everything from a 12 ga shotgun to a 20 20, that includes handguns. They learned about small caliburs and bullets that could put a hole in a tree. My youngest was 4 when he fired the shotgun for the first time.
 
Years later all that information saved the life of at least one unmentionable. I had gone to the store (a 45 minute trip... I lived in BFE) and they spotted a rattle snake next to the house. It was curled up next to an old car battery. They knew they couldn't use the shotgun, batteries can explode. They knew they couldn't use the 22, those shells tend to ricochet off rocks (there was a few large rocks the snake was on) and are unpredictable.... my youngest was a crack shot (at 11), so he grabbed a b b gun and shot the snake through the eye and continued to shoot it until he was sure it was dead.
 
Education saves lives. No that doesn't mean that the neighbors are going to teach their little ones the proper handling of guns... So maybe there should be more focus on educating people, including little ones, rather then outlawing all the things that could be harmful if you don't know what you are doing with it.
 
Jewel

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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 4:49:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Actually the idea that owning guns could prevent a dictatorship and protect democracy is a nonsense. If everyone tried to protect their rights with guns you'd probably end up living in a place similar to Chechyna.

Democracy is an idea and you can't protect ideas with guns, I'm not sure you can even protect yourself with guns, since one assumes the other person with a gun also thinks they are right and you are wrong.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 10:27:35 AM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
^5s  I'll Add "Gun Control is Holding it with Both Hands"


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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 10:37:29 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm surprised that no one has yet said something smug and half-witted like "Gun control means using both hands!"


You spoke too soon...lol.

quote:

MaterRenegade77
^5s  I'll Add "Gun Control is Holding it with Both Hands" 


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 10:49:49 AM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I completely agree with ShiftedJewell about the value of education. You fear that which you do not understand.

$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 11:03:30 AM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
As The original post said;
"With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects"
Am quickly seeing who the sheep are...


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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 5:58:23 PM   
MstrTiger


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
Where do people get the idiotic idea from that criminals are some sort of an easily identifiable separate species, do they think that the police catch 100% of people who commit crimes thus making them easily identifiable? in my humble opinion the people who say things like “I know how to make the world a safe place….. Take all the guns off the naughty people hmmm that’ll work. ” Show a massive flaw in their ability to reason and as such they should not be left in charge of a sharpened pencil without adequate supervision let alone something that could actually do someone some serious harm. How do people who believe in this approach think they are going to go about identifying all the naughty people and when they do identify them how to they think they are going to go about stopping all the naughty people from stealing guns from all the good law abiding people.

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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 6:18:43 PM   
MstrTiger


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

As The original post said;
"With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects"
Am quickly seeing who the sheep are...



Yes that is possibly true, we have no guns in Britain and are subjects to our powerful and heretical monarch, woe is us how we suffer boo hoo.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 6:53:12 PM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
quote:

Yes that is possibly true, we have no guns in Britain and are subjects to our powerful and heretical monarch, woe is us how we suffer boo hoo.



Our Country was founded by people that no longer wished to be subjects & were willing to die for our feeedoms therein lies the difference... If you're satisfied with what you have who am I to tell you to revolt??? But when you take the peoples guns & weapons you take thier power to revolt, Any Dictator will tell you the same thing!!!
Does anyone ever wonder why no other nation has tried to occupy the U.S.A.???
Aside from ours being one of the best Military's in the World, We All have guns & would use them...


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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 8:51:11 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

quote:

Yes that is possibly true, we have no guns in Britain and are subjects to our powerful and heretical monarch, woe is us how we suffer boo hoo.



Our Country was founded by people that no longer wished to be subjects & were willing to die for our feeedoms therein lies the difference... If you're satisfied with what you have who am I to tell you to revolt??? But when you take the peoples guns & weapons you take thier power to revolt, Any Dictator will tell you the same thing!!!
Does anyone ever wonder why no other nation has tried to occupy the U.S.A.???
Aside from ours being one of the best Military's in the World, We All have guns & would use them...



Perhaps no other nation has tried to occupy our nation recently because our education system is only good enough to produce one million dropouts each year!   Living in a nation where a bunch of idiots are running around free to do anything they damn well please can be a bit scary!

The US ranks 24th world-wide in math education... perhaps we should focus a little less on guns, smoking, preventing gays from marrying, etc, and see that our future generations will be properly educated. 

"Well Junior... so, you can't add or read.... but we fought for your rights to smoke and shoot a gun..... now have a beer".

PS  CrappyDom.... I really enjoy your posts.  Thanks

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 7/31/2006 8:54:46 PM >

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
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RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 10:06:36 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"All firearms used and kept in populated areas must use hollow point or exploding ammunition"

Sound crazy ? You shoot a 7.62 X 39 copperclad round in an apartment building you could kill several people. Also if your aim is not quite all that good, it is more effective.

"You are not allowed to keep high explosives in a populated area, except under conditions of extreme security and protection"

The second amendment says firearms, not depleted uranium weapons, not nukes, not poison gas.

"Citizens will check their firearms at the door when entering a public building where children may be, unless they have completed a firearms training course, with emphasis on maintaining possesion of the firearm(s)"

You can see the logic in that one.

That, to me is sensible gun control. I'm sure there are some I have not thought about, but too much becomes infringement.

People do not put things in perspective. So a robbery or murder takes place every so many seconds. Well divide that by 300,000,000 people and see what your odds are. People are easily frightened by statistics when they are put a certain way. Drunk drivers kill 50,000 a year, OK how many are struck by lightning ?

The lottery is up to $78,000,000, OK, what are the odds of winning ? Say one in 450,000,000. Sucker bet if I ever saw one.

Now when they start talking percentages, I will listen. Also, the fact of the matter is law enforcement officers kill more people than anyone else, not counting executions. Now when they are after someone dangerous I guess they gotta do what they gotta do, but in my view, drug dealers, pimps and bookies are just businessmen. They are not taking from others, in fact a bookie will treat you way better than the lottery. There is no such thing as a drug pusher, people come to the dealer.

When the cops come a confrontational situation ensues. You try to steal from me, harm me or damage my property you do so at your own peril, but if you want to sell me a nickel bag, IMO you are not a criminal.

Let's get the drug laws straight while we are at it. If you sell recreational drugs to someone under 21, IF THEY ARE YOUNGER THAN YOU, that is a crime.

Now you know. Not only am I not a democrat or republican, I even stretch the limits of being a libertarian. If they took all the muss and fuss out of these dirty dealings and minded their own business, of course people would destroy themselves with drugs. Maybe even hurt others, but wait, they do that now. Current policies do nothing but exaserbate the situation.

"Any harm done to another while the perpetrator is under (excressive) influence of a recreational drug is considered an intentional act"

Fender bender=vandalism. Injury=assault and battery. Death-first degree homicide.

Try that for a few years.

How about this :

"Restraint and protective devices in automobiles are unlawful, except as to protect the occupants from a collision FROM another auto or ant vehicle"

No front air bags, you hit something you stooopid ass, go through the windshield like you deserve to. But then put something like a railroad tie in the doors. Get hit, your chances are good, hit something IT HURTS. Wanna see people pay attention on the road ?

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but I think it applies, it seems that personal responsibility is being wiped out.

T

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Gun control??? - 7/31/2006 10:11:09 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Oops, the hollowpoint is more effective. You could just wing someone and incapacitate them.

T

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Profile   Post #: 40
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