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Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 2:58:26 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
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From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I have long wondered what Cheney's real goals were.  He is a realist of the first order and as Machiavelian as they come.  The policies that led directly to the current chaos could not have been oversights as they were just to glaring and too clear to anyone with the least understanding of the ME so I knew there was something I was missing.

Chaos in the ME serves one goal, it ensures the Arabs remain dependent on America for security and ensures that China is unable to secure ME oil.  Only America has the ability to project stablity outside of our borders, we have the naval and poltical forces capable of making it happen, China doesn't.  Stable countries can sell to the highest bidder, unstable ones have to sell to the one who keeps them in power, in this case us, or at least Bush's buddies.

This is the only theory that fits the facts that I have seen.  Nodody is dumb enough to think that invading Iraq, a country with a Shia majority, would somehow create a western leaning democracy.  Nobody could really be dumb enough to occupy a muslim country and think that not having a long term plan would be be a good idea.  Threatening countries like Iran during an election and being surprised the citizens take umbrage and elect a hardliner cannot be a surprise to anyone but the most ignorant neocon.

So in short, the supposed mess we are faced with has to be the result of desire not accident as they have consistently chosen the path toward chaos and away from stability and order.  PNAC spelled out they wanted to secure the ME oil but how clever is it to do it in such a way that not only enriches you by funneling the oil through your firms but also that we have to buy weapons from you in order to keep it secure.

Down right brilliant.
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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 3:31:33 PM   
irishbynature


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Status: offline 		CrappyDom.
I'm glad you brought up  PNAC. I read most of the document several years ago and for those who don't believe what you've commented....(considering Oil, ME, and Cheney & PNAC)...would be best advised to read over PNAC.

And....we all know Cheney is pulling the strings and is the Puppetmaster.

Excellent post.
Irishbynature


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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 3:33:44 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		Cheney's goal should be to obtain a truer aim.

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 3:36:11 PM   
WyrdRich


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Status: offline 		      Idealists actually ARE that dumb.  I haven't yet given up hope that we can grow a democracy in Iraq and I like the grand scheme of responding to the 9/11 attacks by trying to fundamentally change the power structure of the ME.  I think we should be doing a lot more to ram Western liberties and ideals right down the clerics throats.  Broadcasting "The Burning Bed" (70's TV movie about an abused housewife who sets her sleeping husband on fire) across all television frequencies would be a good start.

     I don't agree with the assumption that this is "Bush's War."  (Or Cheney's either)  If 2000 had gone the other way, President Gore would have us in there somewhere.  He'd have been impeached and removed as a coward otherwise.  The pre-9/11 order must be changed and a new order can only come after chaos. 

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 3:50:54 PM   
irishbynature


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Idealists actually ARE that dumb.  I haven't yet given up hope that we can grow a democracy in Iraq and I like the grand scheme of responding to the 9/11 attacks by trying to fundamentally change the power structure of the ME.  I think we should be doing a lot more to ram Western liberties and ideals right down the clerics throats.  Broadcasting "The Burning Bed" (70's TV movie about an abused housewife who sets her sleeping husband on fire) across all television frequencies would be a good start.

    I don't agree with the assumption that this is "Bush's War."  (Or Cheney's either)  If 2000 had gone the other way, President Gore would have us in there somewhere.  He'd have been impeached and removed as a coward otherwise.  The pre-9/11 order must be changed and a new order can only come after chaos. 


The question is: How can we grow a democracy if democracy isn't what they want? Right? Just wondering.

Warmly
Irishbynature


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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 4:04:41 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature


The question is: How can we grow a democracy if democracy isn't what they want? Right? Just wondering.

Warmly
Irishbynature



     That's the dumb idealist part.  We are assuming that if people have a choice, they'll go for self-determination.  There have been elections in Iraq, there is an approved constitution and an (admittedly weak) elected government in office.  Will it hold up?  Will it all collapse into civil war?  I don't know.

       One thing that did make sense with starting the broader plan in Iraq is that there aren't quite as many religious fanatics as some other places and they had something like a middle class.  Those folks are going to want stability.

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 5:00:06 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
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Status: offline 		I certainly would not assume Ahmadinejad was "elected" in Iran, Crappy. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
 
http://www.fidh.org/article.php3?id_article=2431


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1425728/posts

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rashidi200402230856.asp

 
And irish, why would you think they don't want democracy in Iraq?


< Message edited by Level -- 7/31/2006 5:13:30 PM >

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 5:31:55 PM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		Before you can have a democracy you have to have a few fundamental truths that everyone agrees upon [one man one vote, an independent judicary, the rule of law etc.]. Kurds, Shites, & Sunnis can't agree that the other two groups even are humans. I think we're approaching the Iraqi version of democracy faster the they're appraoching ours. When Ann Coulter can call liberaals "Godless" in print & John Dean can say "Conservatives Without Conscious", When the VP tells a Senator  "F* you" how far are we from shooting at each other?

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 6:06:30 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Before you can have a democracy you have to have a few fundamental truths that everyone agrees upon [one man one vote, an independent judicary, the rule of law etc.]. Kurds, Shites, & Sunnis can't agree that the other two groups even are humans. I think we're approaching the Iraqi version of democracy faster the they're appraoching ours. When Ann Coulter can call liberaals "Godless" in print & John Dean can say "Conservatives Without Conscious", When the VP tells a Senator  "F* you" how far are we from shooting at each other?


People in all arenas of public life have always been vicious with one another; I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying what you're seeing now isn't something sudden. I'd like to see a faster evolution, as long as it went in the right direction, but I'd also like a million dollars in unmarked bills lol. It takes time.



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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 6:39:02 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Rich,

Going to war isn't brave and choosing your battles isn't cowardly.  Sometimes going to war is stupid, just ask Japan, sometimes choosing peace can be quite brave, just ask Switzerland.

We lost the war when we once again walked away from Afghanistan.  That was the perfect domino.  Almost nothing we could do could make it worse and if we fucked up it didn't matter. 

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 6:39:54 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		I fail to see how the chaos in the Middle East serves U.S. interests, but maybe the supergenius Cheney sees things I don't.

I doubt it...but maybe.

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 6:44:23 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		PNAC????
I do not understand this PNAC

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:00:08 PM   
CrappyDom


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From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Arpig,

Google it...

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:24:46 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Before you can have a democracy you have to have a few fundamental truths that everyone agrees upon [one man one vote, an independent judicary, the rule of law etc.]. Kurds, Shites, & Sunnis can't agree that the other two groups even are humans. I think we're approaching the Iraqi version of democracy faster the they're appraoching ours. When Ann Coulter can call liberaals "Godless" in print & John Dean can say "Conservatives Without Conscious", When the VP tells a Senator  "F* you" how far are we from shooting at each other?


We've assumed they want what we want.

(That's a rather large assumption).


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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:27:04 PM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Going to war isn't brave and choosing your battles isn't cowardly.  Sometimes going to war is stupid, just ask Japan, sometimes choosing peace can be quite brave, just ask Switzerland.


I haven't agreed with most of what you've said...but this was prescient.

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:28:45 PM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I fail to see how the chaos in the Middle East serves U.S. interests, but maybe the supergenius Cheney sees things I don't.

I doubt it...but maybe.


We don't have all the pieces.

They may be incongruous.

We should listen to history (and question).

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:29:36 PM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well, Level....75 percent of Bagdad is Shia and they are very strict in their faith and have stated they want a secular form of government---unlike the Sunni  who've had all the control since the invasion/and are in leadership positions. The Shia were the most oppressed during Saddam's reign.

Perhaps it's the civil war that's erupted over btw the Shia and Sunni there that lead me to believe the majority don't want democracy?
Warmly
Irishbynature

< Message edited by irishbynature -- 7/31/2006 7:30:32 PM >

_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:29:56 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		LTR,

Well that is a good start, I am glad to see you are making progress!

(Just kidding!)

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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:32:49 PM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hi ya Arpig.
PNAC= Project for a New American Century.

Good luck..it's a LONG read!

Warmly,
Irishbynature


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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Cheney's goals - 7/31/2006 7:46:14 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

Well, Level....75 percent of Bagdad is Shia and they are very strict in their faith and have stated they want a secular form of government---unlike the Sunni  who've had all the control since the invasion/and are in leadership positions. The Shia were the most oppressed during Saddam's reign.

Perhaps it's the civil war that's erupted over btw the Shia and Sunni there that lead me to believe the majority don't want democracy?
Warmly
Irishbynature


Now, it's not a civil war, it's a misunderstanding.
 
Are you a fan of Miller, or did you just like that one quote?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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