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control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 9:12:14 AM

apoeticsong

Posts: 13
Joined: 6/5/2006
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Guess I am bewildered in understanding the dynamics of it.
Does His control come from Him feeling like he has a grip on His life like He is in charge?
What is the motive of control for the Dom/Master?
Does TPE offer choices or valid input? if not, what is the exchange?
does Ones control come from objectation?
What is the natural order in TPE? how does the energy exchange between both partys?
thank you song

Post #: 1

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 9:16:38 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Those aren't easy questions to answer, and everyone's answer will be different. You have to find your own answers.

I can tell you the ones that make sense to me. He controls you because he needs to own you as much as you need to be owned. He's not living the life he was born to live if he doesn't own a slave.

And TPE is a misnomer. It's not power that's being exchanged; power is being TRANSFERRED. If there's an exchange at all, it's that you receive something from him in exchange for what you give him. Maybe it's guidance, discipline; maybe it's understanding--who knows. For everyone it's different. But you give him absolute power over you, and get back something that no one else can give you.

Hope that helps. It's like trying to describe the flavor of chocolate. You know it when you taste it, but how do you put it into words? It's not possible.

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 2

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 10:46:17 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

I think some of his control comes from her* wanting* to be controlled.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 3

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 1:50:18 PM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

From mpov, we each bring certain things out of others, and for two (or more) folks to share a mutual attraction and connection, some type of energetic transfer is taking place. It is the kind that ya have to feel, for words just don't cut it. Each person's motive or desire comes from different places. This you will have to discover for yourself. If the presence is there, and you feel drawn to it, rather than question its origins and analyse it, i would just allow yourself to experience it and go with the flow, for eventually you will understand. *smile

~raiken

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 4

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 3:55:18 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Thank you SOOO much for allowing me to bring up one of my pet issues- how the term TPE is completely useless and off the mark.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_103815/mpage_1/key_uat%252Ctpe/tm.htm#103815
TPE = Totally Pointless Expression?

I think TPE is a false way of stating what actually occurs in M/s relationships.

TPE = Total Power Exchange

Total? Meaning what? All the power? All the possible power? All the desireable power? A slave still has the power to breath, to menstruate, to dream, and most doms don't like to constantly have to feed their slaves, dress their slaves, bathe their slaves and move them about like pots of plants. Giving someone total power seems inappropriately stated here.

Power? As noted above, we still HAVE a lot of power within ourselves. Not only to do the normal life functions, but to do HIGH functioning, high thinking, high processing, we carry out orders, we get trained, we have responsibilities and expectations upon us. This takes a LOT of personal power to enact effectively. I don't transfer power to the Owner, in fact in many ways I am MORE powerful than I was when I first became owned by him.

Exchange? Well you obviously aren't exchanging power for power according to this acronym, so there seems to be a missing word. Usually it's something like responsibility, or security or protection or some stereotypical dominant aspect.

So obviously, I think TPE is pretty flawed.

What do I use? Well, when I have to use a term, I use "Ultimate Authority Transfer."

Ultimate - this means the Owner can have as little or as much DIRECT control and management over me as he wants, because ultimately (at the end of the day/when it comes down to it) he's the final decision maker. If I do it, it's because he allows it, if I don't do it, it's because he doesn't. We don't have to worry about degrees, or portions, or times of day, or what power I may or may not have. It also means he can give me authority over some areas in a middle management sort of way, while he retains the ultimate veto. We only worry about that final line.

Authority - As I said, I am a pretty powerful person. But obviously the Owner does have something I do not in order for him to be able to make the rules. This is "authority." He has the ultimate authority over me. It's far more specific than a vague "power" and it shows how the direction of my life goes. He uses his authority to use me, to control me, to direct me, to manage me. And with his authority, I am delegated responsibilities.

Transfer - gone is the confusion of "exchange" and the Missing Piece. We have only one term here, authority, which is transferred. Very clear and very clean. He has ultimate authority, I do not.

So, out with TPE, in with UAT. Simpler, more accurate, and true to life.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 5

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 4:08:09 PM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

Power is a force.

Authority is a priority.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 6

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 4:47:45 PM

Littlepita

Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
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That was a really good post LA! I agree with your definitions and will see if my Sir will change the wording to UAT which I happen to find much more intuned to what we are doing.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 7

RE: control verses TPE - 8/2/2006 5:28:11 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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song, and those that will undoubtedly follow,

I'm going to give my spin on 'power exchange' and TPE as an extension in a moment. I want to address the rest of the OP first.

I know this could get bashed from here to Sunday, but I see the phrase 'power exchange' to infer D/s (dominance/submission), and TPE to infer M/s (Master (Mistress)/slave). These are relationship dynamics. Usually, but not necessarily, a relationship progresses through D/s before it becomes M/s. I see the single 'action' although usually it is mental, that triggers this is 'surrender'. I see D/s as a situation where barriers are established (not a bad thing) but over time the relationship becomes so strong and the submissive understands that their trust level of the dominant becomes absolute and the barriers disappear.

(We sometimes say that the barriers (limits) really no longer exist. I believe they still do but the trust is sufficient that they no longer 'seem' to exist. Be that as it may.)

So, one morning you wake up and you're a slave. (Yes, I know, I've changed tone. Let me be playful.) What has changed? For the 'M' individual, part of accepting that 'role' is accepting more-or-less total responsibility, for themselves, the 's' person, for the relationship and its goals and its direction. For the 's' individual, having the responsibilities removed means that that person can focus on what is important from their point of view. Obedience, servitude, being pleasing. The slave should not have to be concerned about themself, because the 'M' person is doing what it takes to meet the slave's needs, not enslaving the slave, but creating a 'freeing' dynamic for the slave. Don't worry, I've got things covered. Trust me. Obey me. Please me. I do and I will.

To repeat, what caused this relationship shift is 'surrender'. I want you to look after me and my affairs so I can concentrate solely on serving you. And yes, to give LAM credit, it is usually a 'need' that both parties recognize and make fit.

So, to 'power exchange'. I, too, from the beginning (15 years) saw a flaw in the definition, but mine is a little different.

It isn't so much a power exchange as it is a power vs. control exchange.

As a responsible dominant, I will not do WIITWD until you tell me it's OK. Permission to start The consentuality in SSC. I call it the 'power' to start the proceedings.

Conversely, a safe word is utilizing the 'power' to stop the proceedings.

In between your two powers, you grant me the 'control' to do whatever I like. If you need to, you will stop me. Or, I might stop myself. In a 'scene', the power vs. control exchange lasts the length of the scene. Simple stuff.

But what is really different if we quit 'scening' and take WIITWD to a 24/7 TPE environment. You know what? Nothing. Rather, the beginning and the end 'seem' to disappear, but they really don't.

If you decide you don't want to be the slave to your Master/Mistress anymore, you still have the 'power' to stop. But until you do, the 'M' person still has total control over the proceedings. They just seem to go on forever, with any luck.

IMHO.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 8

RE: control verses TPE - 8/3/2006 3:56:12 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

Rather than tackle your questions, I'm gonna address your actual topic title....

A BDSM relationship is about unequal control as compared to the theory of a vanilla relationship being egalitarian.... Simply put, the submissive defers to the whim, control and authority of the Dominant. Since there are opposing but complimenting needs being fulfilled (each by the other), there is no question of it being abusive.

Power is a different matter.... When someone has something you desire, they have a certain power over you, including the opportunity to be an arrogant arsehole! lol But if, conversely, you also have something they want just as much, things get far more interesting....

To me, PE is the blending of two equal powers to create a unique dynamic. Speaking for myself, this Dom is just a man without a sub in his life. Since vanilla women can't satisfy my unique needs, not all of them anyway, a fem/sub has power I respect, acknowledge and esp covet. But I'm not so naive as to not appreciate I also have something equally unique a fem/sub covets. That makes Dom and sub power *equal* in my book (as opposed to control) and Power Exchange simply the coming together of both to meet mutual needs - a submissive submitting to a dominating Dominant.

My need to control my partner is just that - a need (rather than a "motive"). But I"m not abusive and I have principles, too - my partner requires a need to be controlled to begin with.

Focus.

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 9

RE: control verses TPE - 8/3/2006 4:29:59 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Transfer - gone is the confusion of "exchange" and the Missing Piece. We have only one term here, authority, which is transferred. Very clear and very clean. He has ultimate authority, I do not.

There is nothing confusing about "exchange" - you give something to get something, ideally of equal worth.

Your use of "transfer", however, leaves no acknowledged room for the Dom to proactively express his unique gifts; he may as well be a passive eunoch with everything being about the submissive's contribution. He has "ultimate authority" because.... you (the sub) are really a "King maker"? Probably goes down well with those who delude themselves into thinking the submissive really has the control but it doesn't wash with me.

I'm only half satisfied with being served and pleased by my submissive; I have opposing dominant needs that still require an outlet. So I'll enable an environment where she may serve, obey and please to her heart's content - but I'll make her do it anyway; do it *MY* way because that's MY need. Thus, we have an equal exchange of powers....

LA, I think you're a clever girl (compliment, not sarcasm) but you're trying to fix something that works perfectly fine; that acknowledges what *both* Dom and sub contribute equally in order to create a D/s dynamic. I know it's popular in forums, but sometimes it isn't always about the sub....

Focus.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 10

RE: control verses TPE - 8/3/2006 9:19:04 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
LA, I think you're a clever girl (compliment, not sarcasm) but you're trying to fix something that works perfectly fine; that acknowledges what *both* Dom and sub contribute equally in order to create a D/s dynamic. I know it's popular in forums, but sometimes it isn't always about the sub....

Focus.

While I think you make a good point here, I still don't accede that TPE works fine on its own at all. I simply do not believe power is exchanged- power doesn't GO anywhere.

I absolutely believe that in order for the relationship to work, the dom needs to take responsibility for the authority. For me, saying that authority is transferred, means that the slave understands by operating under that authority does NOT mean he or she gets to lay down and be completely passive ever after. I tend to envision Ms relationships as like a captain and his first mate. First mates are anything but lazy and passive, and if they are doing their job right, the captain doesn't have to worry about anything but the immediate and necesary issues.

I don't think ANY acronym can effectively explain how relationships work. I think the people who are in functioning relationships already know what it needs- everyone working towards the fulfillment of everyone. That's a universal, and no acronym (even EWTFE) will do that.

I simply think TPE is completely off the mark in suggesting that power can and is exchanged at all, or that power is the key in Ms relationships.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 11

RE: control verses TPE - 8/4/2006 1:30:22 AM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apoeticsong

Guess I am bewildered in understanding the dynamics of it.
Does His control come from Him feeling like he has a grip on His life like He is in charge?
What is the motive of control for the Dom/Master?
Does TPE offer choices or valid input? if not, what is the exchange?
does Ones control come from objectation?
What is the natural order in TPE? how does the energy exchange between both partys?
thank you song

I'm going to take a stab at answering the questions I think you're asking. If I'm off the mark, let me know and I'll try to be more relevant.

My control is internal, a part of who I am. I am in control of myself, how I act and how I react. My willingness to extend that control outside of myself and actively seek to shape my environment is directly proportionate to my confidence in my ability to handle the responsibility. I do not willingly bite off more than I can chew but I can handle some serious chewing.

What motivates me to accept responsibility for making the hard decisions that affect not only myself but also the health and welfare of my girl? I know that I'm good at what I do. I make good decisions and both our lives are better for my leading our parade. I like knowing that she's better off than she would have been on her own. It's a sense of accomplishment, akin to taking pride in having raised well-adjusted children. Owning another human being also has some great fringe benefits.

Does a TPE, or UAT, offer choices? Just as many as any other dynamic. What can be radically different is the range of consequences.

My girl, toy, receives many benefits in exchange for surrendering herself into my care. She has been relieved of a lot of responsibilities she had previously. She is more fulfilled and more in control of her life. As her range of options has decreased, her ability to focus productively on the remainder has increased.

My ability to control toy does not arise from viewing her as a tool, an extension of myself or any other aspect of objectification. My authority is embedded in her belief that that she belongs to me. My ability to inspire that belief is the basis for my influence over her actions.

There is no "natural order", per se. What is perfectly natural and commonsensical for me may have no relevance to you. I find the owner/property dynamic to be be symbiotic. She is fulfilled by serving well and having that service acknowledged in ways that are meaningful to her. My sense of fulfillment increases as I successfully inspire her to overcome those obstacles that prevent her from being the woman and servant she desires to be. We complement one another.

Timothy

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 12

RE: control verses TPE - 8/4/2006 3:30:07 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
LA, I think you're a clever girl (compliment, not sarcasm) but you're trying to fix something that works perfectly fine; that acknowledges what *both* Dom and sub contribute equally in order to create a D/s dynamic. I know it's popular in forums, but sometimes it isn't always about the sub....

Focus.

While I think you make a good point here, I still don't accede that TPE works fine on its own at all. I simply do not believe power is exchanged- power doesn't GO anywhere.

Which point is that, the "clever girl" comment?

Seriously, it depends on how you define "power" and, if you don't even believe in it, it's understandable you don't have a definition in a D/s sense. A submissive's power is what attracts me to her; it's what she has that the other 99.99% of otherwise vanilla women don't. To me, her "power" IS that she is submissive, that she has the
needs and desires she does because they compliment my own equally unique dominant needs. As one who doesn't believe in that ole chestnut of the "gift of submission", I'll happily acknowledge the "power" of submission anytime!

Combining Dom and sub power in a consensual but unequal control environment is, I believe, what is meant by power exchange. For you to say "power doesn't GO anywhere" tells me you've never experienced what happens when the respective powers are combined or exchanged; that D/s dynamic that's to die for. Naturally, I assume you have, you just don't like the PE terminology of it. I've experienced it, too, and "UAT" doesn't do it justice because it tells me it's just about the sub empowering the Dom; that "lucky me" has won a lottery or something rather than making my own equally valuable contribution to said D/s dynamic.

quote:

I tend to envision Ms relationships as like a captain and his first mate. First mates are anything but lazy and passive, and if they are doing their job right, the captain doesn't have to worry about anything but the immediate and necesary issues.

This is exactly my point; you're reinforcing that the submissive (first mate) is carrying a heavier load (are "anything but lazy and passive") and the captain is free to do little more than enjoy the fruits of the first mate's labours. Maybe it's just the flaw in the metaphor but usually my "immediate and necesary issues" are virtually anything the first mate is doing....

quote:

That's a universal, and no acronym (even EWTFE) will do that.

"EWTFE"?? Ok, you've got me; you've exposed my ignorance of Net speak.... You said what? lol

quote:

I simply think TPE is completely off the mark in suggesting that power can and is exchanged at all, or that power is the key in Ms relationships.

Power is not the key to Ms relationships but the key to what makes the Dominant & submissive reciprocally desirable to begin with....

Focus.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 13

RE: control verses TPE - 8/4/2006 3:53:16 AM

sharainks

Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

For me when people start throwing out words like total, absolute, all, every, always, forever, my nonsense alert goes off. I don't believe in absolutes especially when it comes to humans. People are far too complex for that. I think its possible to strive for it as a goal but striving is not achieving.

Several years ago I read a piece that stated that the person who coined the phrase also did not believe TPE was possible for the same reason.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 14

RE: control verses TPE - 8/4/2006 4:38:04 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

That's a universal, and no acronym (even EWTFE) will do that.

"EWTFE"?? Ok, you've got me; you've exposed my ignorance of Net speak.... You said what? lol

Focus.

I was having trouble with that too, until I looked at the post a little closer.

'everyone working towards the fulfillment of everyone'

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 15

RE: control verses TPE - 8/4/2006 9:26:03 AM

apoeticsong

Posts: 13
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline

There are some good post here and I thank all that responded as I still mull over what I have read. Knowing there are many levels to this D/s life style and what works for one person and their perception of it may not for another.
I try not to think of it as being all about the Dom/Master or the submissive /slave.
Though I am new to this life style, I do feel one may have to grow into the M/s of it.
I do not question the authority of it, rather the motives behind it.
To what extent I offer said control, or what transfer of it, if I am respected as person or viewed as property like the couch I sit on?
What input or choices am I allowed to have in it?
I see the transfer or exchange as coming full circle, the energy of his desires as well as mine, and pleasure on both parts, for doesn't a balance need to be in place?
So being in control and being domineering would that not make some one Dominate?
Thus I seek the motives behind control and TPE.
These are just random thoughts, things I am trying to work out in my own head.
my quote:
Like Richard Bach wrote, " argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours"
kindly, song

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 16

RE: control verses TPE - 8/5/2006 2:56:20 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apoeticsong

There are some good post here and I thank all that responded as I still mull over what I have read. Knowing there are many levels to this D/s life style and what works for one person and their perception of it may not for another.
I try not to think of it as being all about the Dom/Master or the submissive /slave.
Though I am new to this life style, I do feel one may have to grow into the M/s of it.
I do not question the authority of it, rather the motives behind it.
To what extent I offer said control, or what transfer of it, if I am respected as person or viewed as property like the couch I sit on?
What input or choices am I allowed to have in it?
I see the transfer or exchange as coming full circle, the energy of his desires as well as mine, and pleasure on both parts, for doesn't a balance need to be in place?
So being in control and being domineering would that not make some one Dominate?
Thus I seek the motives behind control and TPE.
These are just random thoughts, things I am trying to work out in my own head.

A "domineering" personality is borderline abusive and does not necessarily care if the one they are domineering toward cares for such attention. I'm dominant within my relationships but it's important to me that my partner is submissive, else there'll be no relationship. I'm not proavtively dominant to the outside world though I certainly won't be talked down to or disrespected and this means some can find my personality "prickly", esp if I find them tiresome....

You mentioned "motive" in your OP and seem hung up on it.... I believe being dominant (or submissive) is part of the genes (something like being gay) and I also describe dominance as an integral part of my sexuality. I'm no more or less "motivated" to be dominant than I am to be hetero or male; it wasn't a career choice, so to speak. Being hetero is what drives me to seek a female partner just as being dominant is what drives me to seek out a submissive partner.

M/s isn't for everyone; it's about individual needs. What level of control you desire will be reflected in your choice of partner - only you can answer many of your questions. "Property" in an M/s sense is not legally recognised; it's more of an operational dynamic agreed to by both parties. Unlike the couch, you can choose to cease being owned. Depending on what you seek, many M/s relationships are still founded on the mutual love and respect of "normal" vanilla relationships, it isn't always just about service. Most Masters/owners will want your input as a normal part of the decision making process and respect limits you may have.

The "motives" of TPE are mutual enjoyment and fulfillment of unique, control based needs. In a D/s context, your choice of "motive" almost suggests something sinister or deceptive is taking place. Instead, try substituting "driving force" and more often then not, the answers will be that it's simply what we need in our particular lives.

Focus.

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 17

RE: control verses TPE - 8/5/2006 3:07:38 AM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apoeticsong

I will give you my personal beliefs. I doubt that others will have the same experiences in life so their thoughts will differ. (ie if you want to flame me for my beliefs go fly a kite it's a lot of fun).

#1 awesome question

quote:

What is the motive of control for the Dom/Master?

What is the motive? The motive is as personal as it gets and if you wanted me to guess what the Dom's motivation is I'd tell you I haven't a clue - people are diverse as it gets.

quote:

Does TPE offer choices or valid input?

hmm depends on the owner and the extremity.

quote:

Does His control come from Him feeling like he has a grip on His life like He is in charge?

Control and how he feels are entirely seperate. To me. If he has control of (I assume) you then is he in charge of you yes? Does he have a grip on his life? Eh, who knows but him.

quote:

does Ones control come from objectation?

Depends on the relationship. Some people are willing to bring their horse to water and if it drinks it drinks. Some people will take their horse to water and force it to drink.

Objecfication (I believe what you meant) and control are 2 very seperate issues (in my head) but then I have a habit or reading dictionaries.

quote:

What is the natural order in TPE? how does the energy exchange between both partys?
thank you song

Natural order hmm well one person is in Total Control and the other is (supposedly) in total submissision.

Energy exchange is a bit beyond my understanding of power exchange. Don't use too small a light bulb (unless you have enough coal?)?

D (owner of j).

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to apoeticsong)

Post #: 18

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