RE: What a slave needs.

RE: What a slave needs. (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 9:05:44 AM)
And of course I disagree that one has to sacrifice in order to experience a relationship as a submissive.

marieToo -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 9:12:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: amayos These are points I feel skirt very close to another trend of thinking I have come to loath. While I trust I understand the spirit in which these lines were written, the above can be taken competely out of context and used to support "the gift serves the giver" philosophy to a fault. I think rather that irregardless of many dominants dislike for the truth an M/s relationship is actually an equal exchange. After all the dominant would not be a Master/Mistress without the slave nor would the submissive be a slave without the dominant. I tend to agree with this statement. I dont see the parties as equals in a Ds/Ms relationship. But I do see it as a mutual exchange. Or at least that would be my ideal in a healthy power exchange relationship Edited to finish an incomplete thought.

Archer -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:14:28 AM)
BTW the companion piece to this is available here: http://www.mastertaino.com/masters_need.htm Remember folks it's easy to pick apart the thoughts someone else took the time to write down much more difficult to actually form the total packages of these essays david stein, took the time to write out. BTW david has been around for a long time in the leather community. Here is a short Bio on the man An internationally known author of both fiction and nonfiction on BDSM themes, david stein has been published in a wide range of current and defunct magazines including Drummer, Bound & Gagged, International Leatherman, Mach, PowerPlay, DungeonMaster, Checkmate, Prometheus, Sandmutopia Guardian, Servants’ Quarters, and the online e-zines Crawl, RopedWeb, and All American Kink. Pieces of his have also appeared in the anthologies Leatherfolk, edited by Mark Thompson (Alyson, 1991); Horsemen: Leathersex Short Fiction, edited by Joseph W. Bean ( Leyland , 1997); and SM Classics, edited by Susan Wright (Masquerade, 1999). Last May david’s epic-length novel, Carried Away: An S/M Romance, was published by Daedalus ( Los Angeles , www.daedaluspublishing.com ). Historically, david is most associated with the coining of the phrase “safe, sane, and consensual S/M” in 1983 for Gay Male S/M Activists (GMSMA), an organization that he co-founded and helped lead for 11 years (he remains a member but is no longer active in a leadership role). The phrase subsequently spread throughout the U.S. and beyond, especially via the S/M-Leather Contingent at the 1987 March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights, which used “Safe Sane Consensual” as its slogan. An essay on the history of the slogan can be found in PDF format on his Web pages at www.lthredge.com/ds/history.htm. In Leather Archer

twicehappy -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:25:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead But the slave putting performance pressure on a Master with unrealistic expectations will frustrate the drive of the Master's desire to Dominate. There should be no pressure in a great relationship it should flow naturally back and forth. quote: That by clinging to purely vanilla "me first" concepts, they hamstring so much of what a Master might otherwise be able to offer them Hmmm, i did not take the essay to be touting a" me first" attitude, rather an "us together" one. I will give you an example; I love to garden, i really can grow anything. Master bought the plants and seeds etc thus encouraging me to expand on something i loved thereby being more satisfied and content. Master loves yellow tomatoes, hot peppers and radishes fresh from the garden. Plus since i started cooking with them both Master and Mistress have discovered they both really enjoy fresh herbs. No, i did not demand or expect he provide me with a garden, but he did. All three of us have profited from this so who was or is serving who? Or is it an equal exchange that still maintains the basic M/s structure?(Meaning i am doing the garden work which i do enjoy but they are reaping the benefits of that work as befits our respective M/M/s relationship.)

popeye1250 -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:27:04 AM)
L.A., I disagree with that part too. The slave is not "sacrificing" anything they are getting what they "need." I like the part about "service" too. Nothing like a sub or slave serving me coffee in the morning dressed in a sexy Maid's uniform! Or watching her go about her daily household duties. A M/s relationship is a symbiotic relationship.

Devilslilsister -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:33:30 AM)
<raises hand> Ooo ooOO i know i know, pick me pick me! All a slave needs is Chocolate! And pepsi! Anddddddddddd.. durm.. em.. hmmm.. GUM! Good movies to watch! a TAN! i've a lovely tan u knows! Durmm.... painted blue rooms.. and erm... hmm dur... der are TONS of thinks that slaves need. Cos slaves are people too DOH

amayos -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:35:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: amayos These are points I feel skirt very close to another trend of thinking I have come to loath. While I trust I understand the spirit in which these lines were written, the above can be taken competely out of context and used to support "the gift serves the giver" philosophy to a fault. I think rather that irregardless of many dominants dislike for the truth an M/s relationship is actually an equal exchange. After all the dominant would not be a Master/Mistress without the slave nor would the submissive be a slave without the dominant. What is being equally exchanged? So long as they are true to the symbiosis they seek, an owner and slave relationship simply fits. It does not have to be equal in any degree. In fact, it most certainly isn't by its very literal definition. Each derives a sense of place in the part they take.

Archer -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:37:21 AM)
Knowing david a little bit (we've met 4 or 5 times and talked a little each time) I think I can shed a little light on what he was getting at with the "sacrifice" term. david generally means that a slave sacrifices comes in when obedience is not easy. If I order my slave to "Go shopping" that requires no sacrifice; if I order her to "Go mow the yard" that would be a sacrifice. Elegant enjoys shopping but hates mowing the yard. Thus comes sacrifice of her short term enjoyment for the deeper enjoyment of living in obedience. In Leather Archer

twicehappy -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:46:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos What is being equally exchanged? So long as they are true to the symbiosis they seek, an owner and slave relationship simply fits. It does not have to be equal in any degree. In fact, it most certainly isn't by its very literal definition. Each derives a sense of place in the part they take. Phrase it however you are comfortable with it is still basically an exchange; What is being exchanged? Dominance for submission, the very basis of an M/s relationship.

Homestead -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:53:18 AM)
I always think of "gestalt" in this sort of arrangement. And a gestaltic organism that starves one of it's components basic needs is not-it's a parasite. I never forget that I'm not alone. Or think it's all about me, even if it favors me.

Homestead -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 10:56:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister <raises hand> Ooo ooOO i know i know, pick me pick me! All a slave needs is Chocolate! And pepsi! Anddddddddddd.. durm.. em.. hmmm.. GUM! Good movies to watch! a TAN! i've a lovely tan u knows! Durmm.... painted blue rooms.. and erm... hmm dur... der are TONS of thinks that slaves need. Cos slaves are people too DOH sighs,I so hate having to high five that little red hand.

thetammyjo -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 11:02:45 AM)
I've met and talked to David Stein online and offline several times. I do think that his thoughts are great but I also think that sometimes his ideals are greater than the realities. In other words, owners are human beings too and sometimes these ideals result in a submissive being unable to find a partner or discovering that they are constantly disappointed. Personally I'm more inclined to listen to my friend Patrick who has been owned by the same master (also a man I respect) for 11 years now. He would not say half these things -- I don't think that Fox would either.

amayos -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 11:04:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: amayos What is being equally exchanged? So long as they are true to the symbiosis they seek, an owner and slave relationship simply fits. It does not have to be equal in any degree. In fact, it most certainly isn't by its very literal definition. Each derives a sense of place in the part they take. Phrase it however you are comfortable with it is still basically an exchange; What is being exchanged? Dominance for submission, the very basis of an M/s relationship. Phrase and wording are the only clothes we can dress ourselves in on discussion boards when expounding upon our thoughts and ideas. While I don't think counting how many angels are dancing on a pinhead is altogether necessary, I do think it's important to express ourselves clearly and back it up with sound evidence—especially when one has undertaken the burden of proof. In truth, I don't think you and I are in disagreement much at all about the generally true, if not somewhat haughty reply you made to my original commentary on David Stein's quoted texts.

Homestead -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 11:05:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo I've met and talked to David Stein online and offline several times. I do think that his thoughts are great but I also think that sometimes his ideals are greater than the realities. In other words, owners are human beings too and sometimes these ideals result in a submissive being unable to find a partner or discovering that they are constantly disappointed. Personally I'm more inclined to listen to my friend Patrick who has been owned by the same master (also a man I respect) for 11 years now. He would not say half these things -- I don't think that Fox would either. I don't have overly high expectations of submissives either. All I really ask for is some intelligence, creativity and the ability to know and manage thier internal workings in a reasonably competent manner. Unfortunately, that seems to be asking far too much of many-but patience will out eventually.[;)] And truth to tell, if a woman approached me with some of the expectations Stein outlined in his essay. I would think she was lost in a fantasy world. I already know where that goes, and I burned the t-shirt. I'm a guy, not a god.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 12:12:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer If I order my slave to "Go shopping" that requires no sacrifice; if I order her to "Go mow the yard" that would be a sacrifice. Elegant enjoys shopping but hates mowing the yard. Thus comes sacrifice of her short term enjoyment for the deeper enjoyment of living in obedience. In Leather Archer I understand the point of sacrifice. I understand the discipline of long term pleasure versus short term direct pleasure. I simply disagree with his point of "Is there is no sacrifice...why bother?" I do not look at my life as one of sacrifice. I have yet to meet a single person in any type of relationship who has not had to deal with sacrifice of some form. Yet, sacrifice is not what makes submission "real" to me- it is simply how we deal in life. If there never was any sacrifice that had to be made, I do not feel there would be anything less meaningful about myself. That again does not mean I am not proud of my work, not proud of my hard gained self discipline, the long term pleasure I enjoy due to short term sacrifice. But it's not the "sacrifice" which makes it worthwhile for me.

Homestead -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 12:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: Archer If I order my slave to "Go shopping" that requires no sacrifice; if I order her to "Go mow the yard" that would be a sacrifice. Elegant enjoys shopping but hates mowing the yard. Thus comes sacrifice of her short term enjoyment for the deeper enjoyment of living in obedience. In Leather Archer I understand the point of sacrifice. I understand the discipline of long term pleasure versus short term direct pleasure. I simply disagree with his point of "Is there is no sacrifice...why bother?" I do not look at my life as one of sacrifice. I have yet to meet a single person in any type of relationship who has not had to deal with sacrifice of some form. Yet, sacrifice is not what makes submission "real" to me- it is simply how we deal in life. If there never was any sacrifice that had to be made, I do not feel there would be anything less meaningful about myself. That again does not mean I am not proud of my work, not proud of my hard gained self discipline, the long term pleasure I enjoy due to short term sacrifice. But it's not the "sacrifice" which makes it worthwhile for me. Sacrifice seems very noble and altrusitic, but I prefer an enlightened selfishness on the part of the slave to set her priorities. If I know she gives up some things, to get others she REALLY wants- I have no problems with trusting her motivations.

breathless1 -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 1:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead quote: ORIGINAL: breathless1 quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead It's best that the slave not assume any rights or perogatives beyond those which were negotiated at the outset. A sense of complacency kills the drive to excel. Though it may be agreed at the onset that the slave have no expectations, expectations still linger. To serve her/his best, would it not stand to reason that it be the Owner who brings out the best within her/him? breathless one The real expectation should be the realization of the slave that having thier needs facillitated is a privilege, rather than a right. Ahh but Sir, if needs are not facillitated what type of a person do You own? The needs of a slave may not be numerous, but they are there. her/his wants may be a priveledge, but their needs? Maybe i am misunderstanding what You are saying. breathless one

Homestead -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 1:48:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breathless1 quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead quote: ORIGINAL: breathless1 quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead It's best that the slave not assume any rights or perogatives beyond those which were negotiated at the outset. A sense of complacency kills the drive to excel. Though it may be agreed at the onset that the slave have no expectations, expectations still linger. To serve her/his best, would it not stand to reason that it be the Owner who brings out the best within her/him? breathless one The real expectation should be the realization of the slave that having thier needs facillitated is a privilege, rather than a right. Ahh but Sir, if needs are not facillitated what type of a person do You own? The needs of a slave may not be numerous, but they are there. her/his wants may be a priveledge, but their needs? Maybe i am misunderstanding what You are saying. breathless one Yes, I was unclear here. My bad for haste. Just having a relationship is privilege, and it goes both ways. This comes back to the sense of entitlement once more. That which is taken for granted, being too lightly valued. To my way of thinking in M/s, one is entitled to the terms of negotiation and renegotiation over time being honored. Needs are addressed in devising an initial framework, and revised as imtimacy increases. But both Master and slave need to have an appreciation of the investment that both make in supporting the dynamic. That they are indeed-privileged. Focus is the single most important element of a D/s dynamic. The ability to weigh and calculate on a day to day, hour by hour status, just how things are proceeding. Let assumptions and complacency enter in, and this focus wanes. Entitlement is an assumption. It says "I deserve something I need not work to keep." Rather than,"I may have something, if I prove worthy of it." And on either side of the slash, to seek one's potential in worth and self-worth IS growth.

raiken -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 2:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead Sacrifice seems very noble and altrusitic, but I prefer an enlightened selfishness on the part of the slave to set her priorities. If I know she gives up some things, to get others she REALLY wants- I have no problems with trusting her motivations. This is basically how i feel about myself, for if i didn't have my own motivations, i would not bother to enter into this type of lifestyle in the first place. It is about finding a mutual fulfillment with another, and yes, to some that may seem selfish and some will judge a slave for this aspect, but it is a human quality that we all possess on either side. It is a basic motivator for most humans, if not all, though some will deny this. And i agree that M/s is the nature of a symbiotic relationship, which equates to a mutual exchange of needs, and in the case of humans, perceived needs are usually the basis. As time progresses i have discovered my needs and desires have changed, i have grown out of some and have discovered others. If a Master is not able to understand that part of growth, it leads to many inhibiting factors and can and has caused emotional damage to the slave who chooses to remain in such a relationship, that is not able to roll with the tides of change to keep it alive and fresh. ~raiken, speaking from having been there done that..*sigh

breathless1 -> RE: What a slave needs. (8/3/2006 3:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead quote: ORIGINAL: breathless1 quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead quote: ORIGINAL: breathless1 quote: ORIGINAL: Homestead It's best that the slave not assume any rights or perogatives beyond those which were negotiated at the outset. A sense of complacency kills the drive to excel. Though it may be agreed at the onset that the slave have no expectations, expectations still linger. To serve her/his best, would it not stand to reason that it be the Owner who brings out the best within her/him? breathless one The real expectation should be the realization of the slave that having thier needs facillitated is a privilege, rather than a right. Ahh but Sir, if needs are not facillitated what type of a person do You own? The needs of a slave may not be numerous, but they are there. her/his wants may be a priveledge, but their needs? Maybe i am misunderstanding what You are saying. breathless one Yes, I was unclear here. My bad for haste. Just having a relationship is privilege, and it goes both ways. This comes back to the sense of entitlement once more. That which is taken for granted, being too lightly valued. To my way of thinking in M/s, one is entitled to the terms of negotiation and renegotiation over time being honored. Needs are addressed in devising an initial framework, and revised as imtimacy increases. But both Master and slave need to have an appreciation of the investment that both make in supporting the dynamic. That they are indeed-privileged. Focus is the single most important element of a D/s dynamic. The ability to weigh and calculate on a day to day, hour by hour status, just how things are proceeding. Let assumptions and complacency enter in, and this focus wanes. Entitlement is an assumption. It says "I deserve something I need not work to keep." Rather than,"I may have something, if I prove worthy of it." And on either side of the slash, to seek one's potential in worth and self-worth IS growth. i agree, focus is extremely important in a D/s relationship. Without the focus and the communication there is not much to talk about at all. i also agree that a slave should not feel she/he is entitled to their wants. The argument, if that be what it was, was in the word 'needs', for needs should always be met. Now if we agree that a slaves needs be met......is it then the responsibility of the Owner to meet those needs? ...how about if those needs are emotional ones, does the answer change? breathless one

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