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RE: contracts???? - 8/7/2006 8:31:01 PM   
TheOriginalBitch


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

OK so you have all said contracts are wonderful things..

Explain to me why it has to be in writing.. isn't a verbal contract just as binding.. isn't a collar a symbol of a verbal contract.. ie I wish to be served.. i wish to serve.. boundaries limitations expectations all can be discussed and committed to without me having to sit down and write it all out.. if my word is my bond then verbally I am committing to a contract, an understanding; a singularly unique agreement between myself and my submissive. If they want to write down expectations, understandings limitations and boundaries and have me look it over so be it. But explain to me WHY I need to sign a piece of paper to make it all that more formal.


Contracts can be verbal, written or spanked into your ass.........to each their own, there is no one true way and every house is different.

For example, I once had a pet that had a memory issue, so I wrote everthing down for her as a daily reminder of what was expected of her, did I ask her to sign it? No. Did I ask her to respect it? Yes.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: contracts???? - 8/7/2006 8:51:54 PM   
MsD


Posts: 68
Joined: 4/25/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone here is saying "this is the way it has to be" ... merely explaining why some of us like to use contracts & why we feel them useful.  Whatever works for each individual / relationship is what those involved should go with.  To each their own.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 6:45:55 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chakota

Mis Pandora, if one views the contract as a fundamental guide tp live by binding on both parties the evolution of the relationship becomes rooted in deeply dedicated open forthcoming trustful communication. The contract is the corner stonr the skyscraper
of a relationship is erected upon.

Edited because I'm obviously not awake and ready to read the boards yet!

< Message edited by MisPandora -- 8/8/2006 6:47:06 AM >

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Chakota)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 6:48:41 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

OK so you have all said contracts are wonderful things..

Explain to me why it has to be in writing.. isn't a verbal contract just as binding.. isn't a collar a symbol of a verbal contract.. ie I wish to be served.. i wish to serve.. boundaries limitations expectations all can be discussed and committed to without me having to sit down and write it all out.. if my word is my bond then verbally I am committing to a contract, an understanding; a singularly unique agreement between myself and my submissive. If they want to write down expectations, understandings limitations and boundaries and have me look it over so be it. But explain to me WHY I need to sign a piece of paper to make it all that more formal.

Because it's ritualistic, and that's part of what we do.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 7:35:29 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

OK so you have all said contracts are wonderful things..

Explain to me why it has to be in writing.. isn't a verbal contract just as binding.. isn't a collar a symbol of a verbal contract.. ie I wish to be served.. i wish to serve.. boundaries limitations expectations all can be discussed and committed to without me having to sit down and write it all out.. if my word is my bond then verbally I am committing to a contract, an understanding; a singularly unique agreement between myself and my submissive. If they want to write down expectations, understandings limitations and boundaries and have me look it over so be it. But explain to me WHY I need to sign a piece of paper to make it all that more formal.


The problem I have with a verbal contract is memory.

When it is written down you can go look and make sure you have remembered correctly. But when its just verbal, I might remember one thing and you another. Then who is correct? I've seen lot of fights (vanilla, kinky, mundane) over disagreements about who said what or agreed to what when it was only verbal.

Personally I don't want that added area of potential conflict.

The simple fact is, Sylverdawn, that no one yet that I have read in this thread has ever said or implied that you must sign a contract. In fact, I know that several of us have said not to sign one unless it has value for you both. If you meet someone who wants a written contract and you don't, you probably aren't a good match.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 8:59:19 AM   
TheOriginalBitch


Posts: 35
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Yes memory issues always come up, that is why you write them down

Mistress
"The Original Bitch"

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 9:04:40 AM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

OK so you have all said contracts are wonderful things..

Explain to me why it has to be in writing.. isn't a verbal contract just as binding.. isn't a collar a symbol of a verbal contract.. ie I wish to be served.. i wish to serve.. boundaries limitations expectations all can be discussed and committed to without me having to sit down and write it all out.. if my word is my bond then verbally I am committing to a contract, an understanding; a singularly unique agreement between myself and my submissive. If they want to write down expectations, understandings limitations and boundaries and have me look it over so be it. But explain to me WHY I need to sign a piece of paper to make it all that more formal.


I kept up with this thread a couple of times over this last weekend, while I was with My jonathan, but I did not take the time to answer. And I have to wonder why you are so adamantly opposed to others' use of a contract. 
Both jonathan and I signed a contract at the end of this weekend, and will sign a permanent collaring contract in a few months, if all goes according to schedule and training. 
I like a contract, and a boy who is opposed to signing one would not be a good match for Me.
As TammiJo said, verbal agreements are subject to a loss of memory.  In addition,. any portions of what I (and he) edit on My basic contract (14 pages...*Smile*) to apply to any individual situations that are not clear, can be discussed.  It helps a great deal to have a point of reference, and the entire dynamic is more thoughtful, in My opinion.    And it reinforces My expections and solidifies a slave's commitment to this dynanmic. 
It is also ritualistic, and I am a fan of a certan amount of ritual.  It works for Me.  If it doesn't work for you, then you certainly don't have to use one.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 8/8/2006 9:07:28 AM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 2:46:38 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

OK so you have all said contracts are wonderful things..

Explain to me why it has to be in writing.. isn't a verbal contract just as binding.. isn't a collar a symbol of a verbal contract.. ie I wish to be served.. i wish to serve.. boundaries limitations expectations all can be discussed and committed to without me having to sit down and write it all out.. if my word is my bond then verbally I am committing to a contract, an understanding; a singularly unique agreement between myself and my submissive. If they want to write down expectations, understandings limitations and boundaries and have me look it over so be it. But explain to me WHY I need to sign a piece of paper to make it all that more formal.




Maybe you dont need that piece of paper.

For Myself its a guideline...I  look at how much time one takes in filling them out...somone just checks yes to everything then I wont be doing a session...someone takes their time and considers the question or asks questions...I will most likely session with.Its just the way I do things.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: contracts???? - 8/8/2006 11:54:14 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not vehemently opposed to anything anyone does... if I did I wouldn't live life the way I do.  I write things down, instructions, expectations, guideline when I must in the moment further I encourage journaling so that their understanding of those things that I may say, instruct or point out can be clarified..

14 pages... good lord does the boy need pointers on how to take a leek??? No disrespect I applaud anyone with the time and energy to detail how to do things the right way for them for 14 pages. I myself would be heartily bored after about three paragraphs.

For me D/s is a alive thing, flexible, flowing and changable..each day brings new situations that can not be thought of before hand so I guess I have simplified my Domination to a few essential tenants.

If no specific instruction is giving.. think of me first then make your choice
Respect is required and expected at all times
Service should always be in the forefront of your mind
Ask if your not sure.. no question is to silly
Be pleasing and joyful in your service if you cannot be then you are not in the right place.

Details are the playthings of lesser minds or so they say. But your going to say they need to know how to dress, how to serve, how to speak .. those things should be discussed as the relationship develops memory or no memory if you don't rush then he will KNOW what pleases you and HOW to act to please you , how to dress to please you, how to speak to please you, where to stand and in what position to please you, how you take you tea to please you and myriad of other insignificant but highly useless bits of floss that make up a good slave.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to MistressSassy66)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: contracts???? - 8/9/2006 12:11:13 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		FastReply because its directed to the thread.  Yes, as Pandora (and the O. Bitch and others) have said so well, it is all about ritual.  The angel in in the details, in this case.  No one is "enforcing" these contracts and I for one don't want to repost my now storied legal analysis of the enforceability of slave contracts.  They are, if you read them, often elegant, too.  FWIW, there is a long history in "vanilla" life of marriage and relationship contracts.  The Jewish tradition, for example, goes back at least 500 years before the birth of Jesus, and requires a written contract to solemnize a marriage.  The beauty, dear OP, is in the symbolic acknowledgement of bonds between two people, NOT in whether the 14 pages of rules meet your approval.

E.

(Oh, by the way...I make my living in part writing, deconstructing and fighting over contracts.  14 pages is a PIKER.  You should see the 83 page LLC Charter I wrote today.  Then again *WINK* some of us get paid by the word.)

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to TheOriginalBitch)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: contracts???? - 8/9/2006 12:16:44 AM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

(Oh, by the way...I make my living in part writing, deconstructing and fighting over contracts.  14 pages is a PIKER.  You should see the 83 page LLC Charter I wrote today.  Then again *WINK* some of us get paid by the word.)


LOL...

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: contracts???? - 8/9/2006 12:50:24 AM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline 		thetammyjo,
 
I feel the same way about contracts set out or written by other people and posted online...
 
My cubby and I sat down and started making notes about what features of our relationship were most important to establish. sure, we put some very important features on the page mixed in with some lesser important ones (I, personally, do not allow the wearing of socks in my bed ~chuckles~ amazingly, that was actually a deal breaker when I was considering someone a few years ago...)
 
Once we got the list of wants/needs, we prioritized them. Things that were very important to both of us were easy... the things where we didn't exactly match gave us a tool for negotiation.
 
By the way, we do not use the word "Contract"... after looking up root words and legal precedent, what we actually developed was a "Covenant" and we've been assured that should it ever come under CIVIL scrutiny, it would probably hold up legally. 

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: contracts???? - 8/10/2006 8:26:19 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Good luck on your new acquisition. You two navigated quite the long distance negotiation to get things started. That's never an easy proposition.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: contracts???? - 8/10/2006 1:28:56 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

[Because it's ritualistic, and that's part of what we do.


OK,, and again.. I really don't want to be a Bitch.. Truly Pandora I respect your posts .. they are informative and well written.. but thats just BULLPUCKY... who is the WE thing... don't WE all do what WE do the way We want to do it.. Haven't there been numerous posts on the whole Laissez-faire attitude we need to cultivate. It maybe part of what You do. I have seen ritualized verbal contracts both in and outside of the lifestyle.. they are called COMMITMENT ceremonies and never did pen hit the page except in the guest book

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to MisPandora)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: contracts???? - 8/10/2006 9:49:02 PM   
MsD


Posts: 68
Joined: 4/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn
... don't WE all do what WE do the way We want to do it..

First, I'm going to take the libery to restate what Pandora said ...
    Because it's ritualistic, and that's part of what SOME OF US do.

Secondly, reread your own words, Sylverdawn & quit knocking those of us doing things the way WE want to do them.  You asked for a why/what's the purpose & when that was given (wonderfully stated by so many), you continue to knock it & argue against it.  Again, as said so well by others, it's not for you, ok fine don't do it.  I find myself wondering WHY you keep arguing against us doing things our own way?  Are you arguing with us because someone else has approached you in regards to the whole contract thing?  Rhetorical questions from a curious mind; no need to answer.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: contracts???? - 8/11/2006 3:36:38 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		D I think there is a difference btwen disrespecting what people write here and healthy debate. Because I take a different point of view doesnt mean that they way I see things is any less valid than anyone elses. My view point in this case happens to be in the minority; ok so be it.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to MsD)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: contracts???? - 8/11/2006 8:44:36 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

[Because it's ritualistic, and that's part of what we do.


OK,, and again.. I really don't want to be a Bitch.. Truly Pandora I respect your posts .. they are informative and well written.. but thats just BULLPUCKY... who is the WE thing... don't WE all do what WE do the way We want to do it.. Haven't there been numerous posts on the whole Laissez-faire attitude we need to cultivate. It maybe part of what You do. I have seen ritualized verbal contracts both in and outside of the lifestyle.. they are called COMMITMENT ceremonies and never did pen hit the page except in the guest book

Now you're just picking words to try to tear apart shit that other people do.  I'm not playing into your game.  WE meant the people that choose to use contracts.  If you don't, who cares!  Let it go.  Click the X at the top of your screen and go take a walk.  Really, it's nice outside.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: contracts???? - 8/11/2006 9:50:22 AM   
MistrssM


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think for many the contract is part of the ritual.......there is some kind of mind fuck to the submissive who is with pen in hand signing away his freedom in a sense. It adds to the ownership dynamic for some... for others its not needed and is even a silly gimmic.... to each their own...

I can also see how, especially in the pro dom arena, it can be quite good to get limits and such expressly written and understood since play can take place with some not as well know to you as others.

(in reply to MisPandora)
Profile   Post #: 38
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