RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire

RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 11:55:08 AM)
The world can be divided into moderates and extremists. There are moderates and extremists in all societies/races/religions etc. The extremists in all areas of the world are a danger to the reasonable person's civil liberties and way of life. I personally place the US and British Governments in the extremist faction. It is extreme to slaughter people in far off lands for the sake of a few quid. So, let's not get all high and mighty about the Islamic fundamentalists when our own Governments have spent the last few years slaughtering men, women and children in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Kedikat -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 11:55:37 AM)
[/quote] Banning dildoes? Lol. That is the threat that concerns you? I haven't had any trouble purchasing them. And I think the problem with the morning after pill is that there have been women who have died after taking the pill. But it is not been banned because of any religous reason. What more info do you need about condoms? With all the screaming and yelling, these are the rights that you feel are being taken away? First of all, none of them are rights except abortion. And all that will happen if Roe V Wade is rescinded is abortion will go back to being decided by each state. As it should have been from the beginning. It seems to me that Collarme is doing fine. More and more people sign on every day. It really seems like you are making mountains out molehills. See, banning smoking, enforcing speech codes, government interference in private business, wiping out any mention of religion in public life, etc. Those are real rights that are being taken away. And the Left is responsible for that. [/quote] It seems rights are the point of view of what is important to you. Banning dildoes is just one example of making laws to force a certain sexual morality on people. The facts on the morning after pill, is it is safe. Safer than many drugs. It is a morality/political issue now. I believe a new director at the FDA spouted some of his somewhat religious morality. Kids looking for information on safe sex practices could use info on condoms. Some religious groups are pressuring to remove any safe sex info save abstinance. So far Collarme is doing fine. But religious and just plain prudes are lobbying to take away the right to express sexuality that offends them. Both sides are doing extreme things. Things to narrow all of our lives to fit their comfort zones.

Chaingang -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent And, I agree completely with your latter point that we have a duty to monitor our Governments and they are servants to us. Which leads me to my point that we get the Governments we deserve. Well, here's the thing... I am usually in a minority segment of the community. I have very conservative views about liberties and the role of government; but I have an eye to the fact that society has moved on from those more conservative standards. In the U.S. we are taxed as if we were a socialist country with very few of the benefits of that level of taxation; what we have instead is a huge military buildup and support industries to keep it so - many hands being greased in the process. I favor cutting way back on the military bullshit and transferring the savings over to things like a national health program, education, infrastructure, and r&d into all manner of things with a focus on alternative energies and how to realistically implement them for real world conservation of the planet. But that won't happen because the hands being greased want more greasing. So usually someone will come to me and say: "Wow, X action is being done by the government - won't that be a great thing!" And I respond with: "Nope, X action sucks and we should have done Y inaction/action instead - now we are really deep in the shit." Years later, and this is no real victory I assure you, the same person will come back to me and say: "You were right. We really fucked ourselves on that one, huh?" I smile weakly in a benign "I told you so..." kind of way. There is zero pleasure in being right when you are ruled by a majority opinion that comes from people with their heads up their collective asses. Fuck, at this stage of the game I'd be satisfied to get my monies worth from the govt. on any basis - I don't even worry about getting the right kind of leadership any longer, it simply will not happen. Your countryman said this: "Evolution by Natural Selection is almost certainly untrue." I find myself on the exact opposite side of that statement and maintain a completely opposed viewpoint. For someone to doubt the essential principles at work in natural selection is to reject a part of reality as we observe it and understand it today - scientifically and objectively! He's probably of the ruling party in your own country and you have to suffer for the decisions he makes with those huge blinders on. Sigh. In my own country it would seem that I am surrounded by people that believe in some kindly supreme being that is concerned with things like the sexual habits of each individual and how it effects the status of their salvation in a wished for afterlife. There might be something about 30 virgins for killing the infidel in there; maybe something about not eating pork, or not eating meat with milk - I get confused with all of these bullshit Mosaic faiths. I laugh at the fantasies by which most people guide their lives. Our respective "people of faith" are like semi-benign lunatics, but they are indeed in charge of the asylum and that's the worry. People are making decisions based on anything but reality. That cannot be a good thing. So I'm sorry, but I don't think I am getting the government I deserve. But if I try to do anything about it (i.e. anything truly effective), I will be squashed by the tyranny of the majority.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:18:58 PM)
Personally, I absolutely believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I also believe that they are very dangerous to the US, and will likely have future sucess in attacking the US, no matter what we do. Stopping all crimes before they ever happen is just a daunting prospect. I also believe though, that the Bush administration has cynically stoked and exploited fear of Al Qaeda here in the US, for their own goals, such as invading Iraq to institute regime change, passing vast sums of money to Halliburton, and getting re-elected in 2004.

captiveplatypus -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:21:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Personally, I absolutely believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I also believe that they are very dangerous to the US, and will likely have future sucess in attacking the US, no matter what we do. Stopping all crimes before they ever happen is just a daunting prospect. I also believe though, that the Bush administration has cynically stoked and exploited fear of Al Qaeda here in the US, for their own goals, such as invading Iraq to institute regime change, passing vast sums of money to Halliburton, and getting re-elected in 2004. That sounds right on the money (pardon the pun) to me.

Chaingang -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:35:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Personally, I absolutely believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I also believe that they are very dangerous to the US, and will likely have future sucess in attacking the US, no matter what we do. Stopping all crimes before they ever happen is just a daunting prospect. I also believe though, that the Bush administration has cynically stoked and exploited fear of Al Qaeda here in the US, for their own goals, such as invading Iraq to institute regime change, passing vast sums of money to Halliburton, and getting re-elected in 2004. Amazing! You list and reject all the repugnant things they have done, but co-sign the reason they give for doing those very things. Hmmm... What should have happened instead, eh?

captiveplatypus -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:41:06 PM)
well we could have not attacked a country that wasn't threatening us in any way, for starters.

NorthernGent -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:48:45 PM)
Chaingang, We are a society. We do not live in a vacuum. Our individual actions impact on others and we have a responsibility to the rest of society. We all help to create and elect the body of people who run our countries. If we walk away from the principles of Government because of corrupt Government in practice this will get us nowhere. We will further our disenfranchisement and the subsequent breakdown of democracy by not exercising our vote. I take it you do not appreciate what our Governments are doing around the world. How will you ever resolve it by saying they do not represent me? We are all to blame because we're allowing it to happen. Regards

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 1:59:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Personally, I absolutely believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I also believe that they are very dangerous to the US, and will likely have future sucess in attacking the US, no matter what we do. Stopping all crimes before they ever happen is just a daunting prospect. I also believe though, that the Bush administration has cynically stoked and exploited fear of Al Qaeda here in the US, for their own goals, such as invading Iraq to institute regime change, passing vast sums of money to Halliburton, and getting re-elected in 2004. Amazing! You list and reject all the repugnant things they have done, but co-sign the reason they give for doing those very things. Hmmm... What should have happened instead, eh? Well, we could have used our diplomatic, financial, and military resources to pursue Al Qaeda (the guys who actually planned and executed the 9/11 attacks), instead of invading Iraq. Not only has invading Iraq been a terrible diversion of those resources, we have created an highly unstable and volatile nation and an incubator for terrorism there. We also have given ideological fuel to the real terrorists to expand their influence. And we have alienated allies that could have helped us. As to alternatives to the scare tactics to achieve re-election and ram-through no-competition selection of Halliburton for billions of dollars, those are rhetorical questions.

Chaingang -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 2:13:16 PM)
NorthernGent: I am politically active, vocal, and get the vote out. But I still do not feel represented because everything is so far gone that it is a fallback position of a fallback position of a fallback position. Unequivocally, things are really fucked up right now.

popeye1250 -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 2:39:36 PM)
Daddy, I agree, we should have persued Al Qeada right into Pakistan! We should be doing that now!

Estring -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 2:51:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The world can be divided into moderates and extremists. There are moderates and extremists in all societies/races/religions etc. The extremists in all areas of the world are a danger to the reasonable person's civil liberties and way of life. I personally place the US and British Governments in the extremist faction. It is extreme to slaughter people in far off lands for the sake of a few quid. So, let's not get all high and mighty about the Islamic fundamentalists when our own Governments have spent the last few years slaughtering men, women and children in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. The difference is, we don't purposely kill civilians as a policy of war. How many homicide bombers have we employed to blow up civilians? To put the US and Britain's actions and Islamic fascists on the same moral plane is ridiculous.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 2:56:31 PM)
I suspect that the day that we invaded Iraq will prove to be the beginning of the end of the US Empire. We have lost enormously both in prestige and goodwill in the world. It wasn't long ago that the US was admired in most of the world. Now we are feared, hated, and distrusted in much of it. Our military is no longer an effective diplomatic weapon, because we can't mount a convincing threat to anyone else while they are bogged down in Iraq - that's why North Korea and Iran can flip us the bird right now. Their radical leaders rightly say - only a madman would take on another conflict at a time like this. Our economy is further weakened by the huge expenditures there. Our debt grows and our ability to maneuver financially shrinks. Confidence in the dollar ebbs. And all of these difficulties come to us at the very time when China and India are ascendent. Every empire must have its zenith. Has the US already passed ours?

NorthernGent -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:04:25 PM)
Chaingang, Fair enough. I agree with you that the whole thing is a mess. I thought you were saying that you have walked away from responsibility but as you are politically active and making the effort I take your point that you certainly have not. Regards

Mercnbeth -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:06:50 PM)
quote: Our economy is further weakened by the huge expenditures there. Our debt grows and our ability to maneuver financially shrinks. Confidence in the dollar ebbs. And all of these difficulties come to us at the very time when China and India are ascendant. Every empire must have its zenith. Has the US already passed ours? Dad4Ud, I'd agree with the above. Yet I should temper my feelings by remembering our parents probably thought the same thing, as did their parents before them. In this case, the corruption comes from within. The downfall was initiated by complacency and sloth, fueled by self interest. Contributing to the demise we now have voices outside the US telling us how we should use our resources. To take on the responsibility of feeding, sheltering, policing, and supporting the world but under their terms. Maybe we've always had outside suggestions, but now it seems we're listening, and worse, acting. 9/11 saw a temporary halt in the momentum but, like a roller coaster breaching the highest hill, there may be a few more ups and downs but you never get as high as you did at the first hill.

NorthernGent -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:18:14 PM)
Estring, Of course the US and British Governments deliberately kill civilians. When they were bombing the life out of Iraq and Afghanistan do you think they didn't have the capacity to realise it would kill thousands of civilians? I will bet my life that the US and British Governments have killed far more civilians in those regions than Islamic fundamentalists have killed US and British civilians. So, again, to take the moral high-ground is ignoring the facts. Regards

Chaingang -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:23:59 PM)
"Study puts Iraqi toll at 100,000" http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/ Under Saddam Iraq was supposedly a secular nation. Interesting that we should go hunting for Islamic extremists there...

NorthernGent -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:28:29 PM)
and, the US and Britain have never been shy about building links with the most fundamentalist state in the gulf. In fact, their biggest ally in the gulf region. Money makes the world go round. Regards

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 3:39:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Dad4Ud, I'd agree with the above. Yet I should temper my feelings by remembering our parents probably thought the same thing, as did their parents before them. Yes, I am not predicting anything - too many uncertainties for that, and certainly not wishing for them. I just found an interview I heard on "On Point" a couple of months ago with a conservative historian, Niall Ferguson, professor at Harvard and Oxford. Of course, credentials alone don't give him a crystal ball, but, he's no wild eyed Chicken Little, and I am uncomfortable with his analysis. Listen at: mms://realserver.bu.edu:554/w/b/wbur/onpoint/2006/06/op_0613a.wma Or link from: http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2006/06/20060613_a_main.asp

popeye1250 -> RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire (8/9/2006 6:43:33 PM)
And China and India wouldn't be "accending" if we'd stop buying all the cheap plastic junk that is produced in those countries.

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