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RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 10:45:32 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
it is something which this slave has been able to achieve both mentally and spiritually. (this slave had 3 physical experiences with this as well, but that is another thread, not destined for this website!!!) this slave genuinely feels it, it is real to her, and a positive thing--responsible for much of the growth and awareness this slave has had the good fortune and blessing to be a part of, so although you define it differently, it doesn't necessarily negate this slave's assessment of her experiences.

Perhaps then "Losing the self, then regaining the self with a new understanding of what "self" means- not as an independent separate entity, but as an innate part of something else"

Self still exists, simply not in the way most people would perceive "self."

quote:

but the "sense of self" this slave now has is as one of Master's possessions, inextricably tied to His presence, physical, mental or both. this slave can guarantee that her current lack of "sense of self" wouldn't exist outside of service to Master. if released, this slave would have to adapt her perceptions, and this slave is sure that would be a long and arduous task. gratefully to Master, this slave's strength and growth has come as a result of the acceptance of this life as HIS slave, the focus being on Him and His possessions, this slave being but one. before this slave became His, it was her overwhelming sense of self as a servant and recognition of her ability and drive to serve that resulted in serving multiple "Masters" and not even stopping and requesting she be attended to when bones in her feet started breaking.

On the other hand you still possess and exhibit many of the same parts of your self that you had innately before you even saw Merc's email address. You have always considered yourself a slave, or at least have always reacted to others as if you were, to refer back to the recent "reacted to a dom" thread. There is still PM (pre-Merc) essence of you within you as there is now PM (post-Merc).

Or, to put it perhaps in an even better way, you've outgrown your "old self" and cannot in the future be separated from your "self that is now," but you still retain a large portion of what was your "old self."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 21

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 11:16:16 AM

Submotive

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
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Thank you, twicehappy.

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 22

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 1:19:15 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Or, to put it perhaps in an even better way, you've outgrown your "old self" and cannot in the future be separated from your "self that is now," but you still retain a large portion of what was your "old self."

mmmmmmmm is this like the tree that grows and changes with the passage of time... but still it has Roots into the earth from which it came. In fact...those roots grow and become stronger and not weaker. Such is the evolution of our self identities. We grow and change...but in there somewhere is the root of who we are that becomes stronger rather than weaker as we come a stronger tree.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 23

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 1:36:07 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmmmm is this like the tree that grows and changes with the passage of time... but still it has Roots into the earth from which it came. In fact...those roots grow and become stronger and not weaker. Such is the evolution of our self identities. We grow and change...but in there somewhere is the root of who we are that becomes stronger rather than weaker as we come a stronger tree.

Thank you. I actually had the image of a tree growing in my head and knew there was a metaphor/simile in there somewhere. But I suck at phrasing them well- part of why I don't like poetry very much.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 24

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 1:58:55 PM

babysburnin

Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
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Chesireboy, I don't think you are losing yourself, I think you have yet to find yourself. All the best to you ...

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to cheshireboy)

Post #: 25

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 2:01:12 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
...Or, to put it perhaps in an even better way, you've outgrown your "old self" and cannot in the future be separated from your "self that is now," but you still retain a large portion of what was your "old self."...

while that might be the way that it appears to you, but again, that has not been this slave's experience or the ideas she was trying to express.

"...you've outgrown your "old self..."

no, more like specifically surrendered her "old" ideas of an individual self and became a possession of Master for Him to use and direct as He sees fit---"lost the sense of self", as it were---becoming His possession.

"...and cannot in the future be separated from your "self that is now"..."

this slave fully admitted here:

quote:

this slave can guarantee that her current lack of "sense of self" wouldn't exist outside of service to Master. if released, this slave would have to adapt her perceptions, and this slave is sure that would be a long and arduous task.

and was stating that she very well could, in the future, be separated from the "self that is now". it would happen the moment Master released her, if that is His will. she would have to adjust to that change, and would no longer refer to herself in the third person or as a "slave"...and choose to either regain an individual "sense of self" again, and move forward, or pine for "that which used to be" and suffer, clinging to one-sided relationship, or jump into the first relationship that presents itself, or jump off a bridge...etc., point being, she would have a "self" to make decisions for again, and would have to take charge of it. perish the thought.

"...but you still retain a large portion of what was your "old self"..."

quote:

...You have always considered yourself a slave, or at least have always reacted to others as if you were, to refer back to the recent "reacted to a dom" thread. There is still PM (pre-Merc) essence of you within you as there is now PM (post-Merc)...

what was this slave's "old self", even in the context of what the OP was talking about, (because this slave really doesn't think we have hijacked it yet), has been "lost" in service to Master. this slave never considered herself a "slave" in the context she is now, until becoming Master's. she just saw herself as an intensely service-oriented individual, in and out of the bedroom~this relationship is the first intimate M/s relationship that was discussed as such with roles being clearly defined that this slave has ever participated in.

the other relationships this slave refers to serving in the past, be they intimate, platonic, familial, financial, what have you, just found this slave gravitating to service, even if that service was to "act" as if Dominant, because it wasn't just a certain "je ne sais quois" about a certain Domly type that inspired this slave to serve~this slave's refers to herself as being trained as a slave since as far back as she can remember as hindsight, not as an awareness of it at the time. the growth and awareness that has taken place "post-Merc" has only happened because this slave surrendered her "pre-Merc" self, flaws and all, to Him.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/10/2006 2:03:07 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 26

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 2:09:17 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
no, more like specifically surrendered her "old" ideas of an individual self and became a possession of Master for Him to use and direct as He sees fit---"lost the sense of self", as it were---becoming His possession.

Back to the beginning here. Again, I don't think you lost your sense of self so much as lost your old sense of self and THEN gained a new perspective on what you consider your "self" to be- a perspective which is not the typical "unique independent entity."

I'm seriously NOT trying to discount your experiences here, or to say that I know you better than you know you.

quote:

this relationship is the first intimate M/s relationship that was discussed as such with roles being clearly defined that this slave has ever participated in.

It was the first relationship, yes. But you actively sought that type of relationship out- put out an ad and read through the responses. There was awareness Pre Merc.

quote:

the growth and awareness that has taken place "post-Merc" has only happened because this slave surrendered her "pre-Merc" self, flaws and all, to Him.

Which doesn't mean that your pre-Merc self is poof and completely gone. A significant part of what makes your identity still exists- simply morphed into a form fit to be Merc's property. One example would be your being a mother. You have not renounced your motherhood. That still remains part of who you are and how you define yourself. Obviously, how you act as a mother, how you view yourself as a mother, how you go through life as a mother are all deeply changed due to Merc's influence- but you still remain "mother."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 27

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 3:45:35 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I'm seriously NOT trying to discount your experiences here, or to say that I know you better than you know you.

gosh...sure seems like it. and with all due respect, your assumptions about this slave are not correct.

quote:

It was the first relationship, yes. But you actively sought that type of relationship out- put out an ad and read through the responses. There was awareness Pre Merc.

actually, no, this slave did not seek out a Master/slave relationship. She sought a Dom/sub relationship. "submissive" was a word this slave could relate to. "slave" was something she wasn't aware of and didn't consider until meeting Master. Hence the statement, there was no awareness of this slave as "slave" "pre-Merc".

quote:

Which doesn't mean that your pre-Merc self is poof and completely gone.

actually, it's kind of funny you would mention that because this slave had a friend who had known her for 6 years to state to her that this slave had changed into someone she didn't recognize, since becoming Master's slave--poof.

quote:

A significant part of what makes your identity still exists- simply morphed into a form fit to be Merc's property. One example would be your being a mother. You have not renounced your motherhood. That still remains part of who you are and how you define yourself.

actually, it doesn't. at the risk of not sounding PC, part of the "old self" that was lost was a person who defined herself as Mom/Dad for 18 years, and...yadda yadda yadda... doesn't anymore. thanks to her identity as a posession of Master, and loss of old "self" things like mother, daughter, friend, dad, artist, volunteer, social science degree holder, model, role model, etc. are now, at most, simply roles this slave plays. her identity, her perception of her "self" as a posession of Master, isn't a role she plays but what and who she has become and how she identifies.

Edited to add: I couldn't be prouder! - Merc

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/10/2006 3:52:34 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 28

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 4:04:42 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

Hi beth,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

what was this slave's "old self", even in the context of what the OP was talking about, (because this slave really doesn't think we have hijacked it yet), has been "lost" in service to Master. this slave never considered herself a "slave" in the context she is now, until becoming Master's. she just saw herself as an intensely service-oriented individual, in and out of the bedroom~this relationship is the first intimate M/s relationship that was discussed as such with roles being clearly defined that this slave has ever participated in.

I can respect your position on where you feel your "self" lies - it seems like something to which you've given a lot of thought. I wonder how, though, if as you say you have no sense of self outside that as Merc's possession, then how is it that you are here expressing an opinion? I mean this in the spirit of trying to understand: by virtue of having an opinion, you have a self. The slave that is you formed thoughts, considered where they fit in your life, and are here trying to make yourself understood to the board. You have stated many thoughtful opinions in the forums that, while probably the same as Merc's in content, were surely expressed in your own unique style. It's that uniqueness that defines "self" - it's the way you move through the world, which doesn't end even if you give all to another and submit wholly to their authority.

"Self" isn't a thing you have, like a coat that you put on. Self is what you do, every day, when you act in ways that make sense to you based on how you identify. You are Merc's slave and that means acting and behaving a certain way. Every action you take every day is a part of creating that self, making it real to you. A person can't not have a self, even if they exist only as an extension of another person. It's not a bad thing nor do I think it makes anyone less a possession - it's simply a fact of being human.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 29

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 4:07:56 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
actually, it's kind of funny you would mention that because this slave had a friend who had known her for 6 years to state to her that this slave had changed into someone she didn't recognize, since becoming Master's slave--poof.

really this is rather strange...

You once stated....

quote:

this slave was brutally honest with him, trusting, fiercely devoted and loyal

this statement wasn't directed to Merc... actually it was how you felt towards a past relationship that was actually an abusive individual.....

I suspect that you haven't changed your Honesty, Trusting and Fiercely devoted and loyal character traits now that you have Merc in your life.

As you claim... you where these things before Merc.. unless of course with Merc your are less than these... I suspect if anything.. your more!.. Your relationship enhanced what was already there.... In some areas you are a new person... others the same... in others enhanced.

Your continued progression to stated your a new self and the old... in part or whole doesn't exist ... is rather silly at best

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 4:24:33 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillsGalSusan

40 year old slaves may need to have something else going for them, other than a desire to live out their fantasies.

Fortunately (from my POV) it is in those things we might label "something else" that the key to not losing yourself lies.

I agree. There is so much more to this lifestyle than looking pretty in chains. Luckily life offers us every opportunity to gain all the skills and talents we need to be a whole, complete person on our own.

Only when we take all of who we are, into a relationship, are we capable of making that relationship last.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to BillsGalSusan)

Post #: 31

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 5:31:52 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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KoM,

quote:

I suspect if anything.. your more!.. Your relationship enhanced what was already there.... In some areas you are a new person... others the same... in others enhanced.

I know beth is "enhanced". I know I am too. That's always been our stated goal. Collectively we are better than the sum of our parts. My training of beth wasn't to change her. I really didn't need to enslave her. I found her to have all the attributes I wanted in a woman I desired. I also found her to have all the attributes I required of a slave.

My training isn't behavior modification it's behavior intensifying. Deep in training, I tell her to focus on "going deeper". As she does she gains a knowledge of herself that, I believe, she would glean in no other manner. Ultimately she becomes a better beth, more natural; and ironically more free. she was always strong, now she's stronger knowing I "have her back". she was always sexy and sensual; now she doesn't have to fear showing it. she always had the ability to be confident; now she isn't afraid of having that security pulled out from under her. Honor, trust, and devotion aren't just on her side of the equation.

Has she has "lost" some of her identity during the process? No more than I. In a way we both serve the same "Master" who didn't exist before we met. We serve 'Mercnbeth'. I won't try to quantify whether that is "good" or "bad". I know that we both are enjoying the hell out of our life together.

Most of my friends from NYC haven't seen me in years. Some unfortunately are dead. beth's are still close. Without question I'd suspect my friends would also say I've changed. They may think it's for other reasons, but it's really the same reason that beth has. There is a different priority in our life. We say to each other that everybody and/or everything in our life is tied for second place priority. Each other is first. It's an inside joke, but it's based upon factual feelings. Those feelings didn't exist with me prior. In that respect if it's considered a "loss", I too have "lost" myself.

I don't think it's a bad thing to lose some of yourself in a relationship to another. I know I'll never be as independent because I never want to have to be as independent as I was ever again. I want beth to be there. I want her to be THAT important. I'm happy and proud that I am THAT important to her.

quote:

Your continued progression to stated your a new self and the old... in part or whole doesn't exist ... is rather silly at best

Can you flesh out this comment? I tried reading it, even out loud, with the ... pauses and don't know what you are getting at.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 32

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 6:08:13 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Your continued progression to stated your a new self and the old... in part or whole doesn't exist ... is rather silly at best

Can you flesh out this comment? I tried reading it, even out loud, with the ... pauses and don't know what you are getting at.

Restated...

your continued desire to express that you are a new self with Merc and that their is nothing of the old self before Merc is ridiculus!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 33

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 8:30:58 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

Excuse Me, I've held this back for a while, but the thread keeps getting deeper and deeper. LA and KoM, why do you both keep telling beth she's still got more of her "self" than she thinks she does, or she wants to? It is her self-construct, and you might simply let her be, instead of challenging her on something that is ultimately unresolveable. Indeed, both of you are repeatedly rude and presumptive in this thread, something I don't usually see from either of you. What is the "percentage" in trying to persuade someone of something essential to their selves? Let the slave be, or not be, what she feels like.

E

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 34

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 8:43:46 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
your continued desire to express that you are a new self with Merc and that their is nothing of the old self before Merc is ridiculus!

the presumption, by you, or any of the other posters and readers of this thread that by simply recognizing character traits or observing an opinion of another individual (an objective, observable outward expression) one can assume to therefore determine that same individual's "sense of self" or lack thereof (a subjective, internal, individually recognized experience) more accurately than the individual in question could report on their own, is equally, if not more so, ridiculous!

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 35

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 8:52:47 PM

babysburnin

Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
Status: offline

I hope you are sooo happy. Sometimes, I think you protest too much. From my opinion, you always claim everything is perfect. Nothing is perfect.

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 36

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 9:09:43 PM

redpetals

Posts: 229
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

good thread
i have had an online relationship with a Master for over a year
there is some distance that is more than a simple inconveinience to Master because of his very structured life.
not long after He became Master to me..i litteraly begged Him to release me.
the surrender that i felt to Him scared hell out of me..i knew if i met Him face to face i would do anything that He said and i froze
He took me back and i was right,i have done everything He has said to do except one thing and i can guarantee it is just a matter of time until i do
yes, losing your self is scary
but unlike the times i have lost myself in the past with vanila relationships (last one lasted 23 years) in this relationship with Master i am actually growing.
yes ,actually moving forward as a "new creation"
this never happened before i accepted/understood my need to submit
the closest was each time i became a mother
but this is different..the only similarity would be the feeling i have of answering to a higher power..this time the higher power is Master not Motherhood.
and the "new creation" is me as a Domme
this i have done real time and enjoy it
i never would have been able to do this if i hadnt lost myself first
go figure

_____________________________

Love is a verb.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 37

RE: losing your self - 8/10/2006 9:18:34 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillsGalSusan

That has not been my experience. And while I am not saying that it never happens, when being submissive and serving your dominant partner includes being out in the world and dealing with other people and various situations that arise during a normal day, many issues not even vaguely related to your relationship will be part of your life. More than that, the ability to converse intelligently about diverse issues and having an actual life to share are important to even the most dominant person if you are living together 24/7.

The fantasy (and perhaps the fear) may be that you will lose yourself as your submissiveness grows, but (and again this is only my experience, for whatever that is worth) the reality is that you will have other roles in your life. You may be an employee, a boss, a parent, the adult child of parents who need assistance, a sibling, a neighbour. You will continue to be a citizen of the world. You will make friends, many of whom will most likely be your dominant's friends, too, but you will undoubtedly make your own friends as well--if only other submissives you encounter.

That being said, your relationship to your dominant will always be with you. When something happens at the grocery store or at work, your first thought may be how you will share that small event in your daily life with him/her. When you see something on TV, you will want to share that, too.

You may feel a deep sense of contentment from your "service" as you make a wonderful meal, but you are no less submissive when the taste of it in your mouth pleases you as well..

Another Susan

That was very nicely stated, Susan. Your posts always strike me as making perfect sense. I so relate to this and feel the same exact way .

(in reply to BillsGalSusan)

Post #: 38

RE: losing your self - 8/11/2006 3:22:49 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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It seems to me that KoM and Mercnbeth are using the same word but actually talking apples and oranges. It seems that beth is speaking of how she sees herself now or her sense of self, whereas she used to see herself as mom, employee, etc., now her image of herself is as Merc's property who occassionally has to put on roles (mom, daughter) and KoM and LA are talking about character traits (honor, loyalty, desire to serve) that make a person unique in the world or in another term a unique self. In trying to answer the OP's fear that submission will cause him to lose everything that makes him, him (not only how he sees himself but also all those character traits) it appears that two different angles are being addressed.

Editted for typo

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 8/11/2006 3:23:27 AM >

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 39

RE: losing your self - 8/11/2006 6:24:46 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: babysburnin
I hope you are sooo happy.

Somehow I don't think you are sincere.

quote:

Sometimes, I think you protest too much.

I don't believe that! The "thinking" part I mean. We should let others challenge the validity of our feelings without comment? You're not talking about if it's better to live in LA versus NYC. You're saying that beth's and my feelings and the way what we've disclosed about our relationship is a lie. That will NEVER go unchallenged. No protest is "too much" or too strong, It should be the same for you. What does it say about you if it's not?

quote:

From my opinion, you always claim everything is perfect.

It is. For US it is. Come visit us. Better yet, we'll be in your neighborhood, SF for Folsom, why not meet us while we're there?

quote:

Nothing is perfect

YOU would know? Or were you looking in a mirror? For us it is.

You're suggesting that people like yourself or others should be ignored when a person honestly and opening discloses how they live and how they feel gets challenged it should be ignored? Situations like living with a husband while saying you are a "slave" to someone living in another country isn't ridiculous? Having a few "Masters" who sell you, lend you out, isn't ridiculous? Two people living together 24/7, totally committed to each other above anything else in their lives - THAT is ridiculous and unbelievable! If total commitment and dedication isn't your relationship goal, what is? Chat room romance or having a fuck buddy who likes to spank your ass every other time is easier to obtain I guess.

There was no "protest" only explanation. How about this thought - You assume falsehood because you see it in yourself and your relationship. That's my assumption. Here are more.Your so self centered and egotistic you can't imagine the selflessness of giving all to another or someone giving it all to you. You never can trust someone completely because you've held back some part of you in the anticipation of failure. You place work, family, hobbies, personal preference, above, or at least on the same level of your relationship, making your relationship just another obligation and 'thing to do' as opposed to the priority in your life. Because you can't do these things I feel sorry that you'll never feel how we do every day.

We're right here. Doubt we are as we say? You are welcome to come and visit and see for yourself.

(in reply to babysburnin)

Post #: 40

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